Originally posted by Superherovandal
thats complete bs right there.
Which part? Dragon and Shiva's appearances are almost virtually the same as Shang-Chi's old Deadly Hands and Master of Kung Fu appearances (if anything even in those old appearances he came off superior). In DC Shiva and Richard are the top of the heap, Shang-Chi isn't the top in Marvel. Zartan said that Cap was better, and Wolverine has steam rolled Shang-Chi also (also Zartan wanted to beat Wolverine to make up for losing to Cap... who he wanted to fight to make up for losing to Shang-Chi.
So which part is bullshit exactly?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Which part? Dragon and Shiva's appearances are almost virtually the same as Shang-Chi's old Deadly Hands and Master of Kung Fu appearances (if anything even in those old appearances he came off superior). In DC Shiva and Richard are the top of the heap, Shang-Chi isn't the top in Marvel. Zartan said that Cap was better, and Wolverine has steam rolled Shang-Chi also (also Zartan wanted to beat Wolverine to make up for losing to Cap... who he wanted to fight to make up for losing to Shang-Chi.So which part is bullshit exactly?
You making the large assumption that Shang is better than DC's best. Ergo Marvel's best who are better than Shang, trump DC's. 😬
Here's news..........Shang Chi amped up would deck the whole DC toptier.Why? Because he would be physically way too much for them. It won't be because he is more skilled (though he is a top tier). Elektra in my opinion would deck Shiva. Not because she is more skilled, but because she is physically too much. Just because Marvel's crew would win over the DC lot in fights, it doesn't mean they are more skilled.
Originally posted by Warrior18
Shang chi is top tier for sure, but he is more of an uber chi amper to me. But based on base martial arts skill, fighting ability and knowledge expressed through feats I wouldn't even put him above Batman let alone Richard Dragon.I rate Dragon because he called Bat's a 'talented ameteur' or something. Batman's sheer bulk of MA feats, ie nerve strikes,masters he's clobbered, the attention paid to portraying his training, sheer amount of time dedicated to tying the character to MA trumps most people's in both companies I think. Also many of Batman's losses or encounters where he came off worse occurred in older Batman comics. I doubt he would be portrayed lose to the Bronze Tiger now for example. Also Shang chi with all his insane chi ampage got totally embarrassed by Logan in four panels was it? Not that I don't think Logan isn't top tier or that Shang should have lost....but that was painful.
I personally would say Cap and Bats are about the same, maybe Cap having the edge in ability because of his enhanced brain. Yet Cap has never shown any nerve striking or other knowledge to the level of even DD, never mind Bats. I think you underrate the DC MA's bigtime.By the way Drakon is sick. Didn't he deck the Green Arrow crew?Though I wouldn't put him any near KK or O-Sensei. Meh.
Shang-Chi is one of three characts who have actually been stated on panel to be a master of every MA known to man (the others being Cap and some mook named Dragon Fly... but it was implied that Fu-Mancho did as well) and he even eve solo'd six monks who boosted the same claim. Shang-Chi did really start doing that much with chi ampage until his appearances in MCP, and it has gone into over drive in the last few years. That aside, his old appearances in Deadly Hands and Master of Kung-Fu are EASILY a match for anything Richard Dragons done (and quite honestly his 18 issue run wasn't that impressive).
Also there is some issue to where or not Dixons, Dragon run (where he called Batman a talented amature) is canon or not. It retconned stuff, and the retcon has since been ignore in Dragons appearances since then.
Originally posted by Warrior18
You making the large assumption that Shang is better than DC's best. Ergo Marvel's best who are better than Shang, trump DC's. 😬
Here's news..........Shang Chi amped up would deck the whole DC toptier.Why? Because he would be physically way too much for them. It won't be because he is more skilled (though he is a top tier). Elektra in my opinion would deck Shiva. Not because she is more skilled, but because she is physically too much. Just because Marvel's crew would win over the DC lot in fights, it doesn't mean they are more skilled.
Aside from fighting Batman, Shang-Chi's explodes are virtually identical to Dragons and Shiva's... only vastly more numerous so it is an easy comparison to make.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Shang-Chi is one of three characts who have actually been stated on panel to be a master of every MA known to man (the others being Cap and some mook named Dragon Fly... but it was implied that Fu-Mancho did as well) and he even eve solo'd six monks who boosted the same claim. Shang-Chi did really start doing that much with chi ampage until his appearances in MCP, and it has gone into over drive in the last few years. That aside, his old appearances in Deadly Hands and Master of Kung-Fu are EASILY a match for anything Richard Dragons done (and quite honestly his 18 issue run wasn't that impressive).Also there is some issue to where or not Dixons, Dragon run (where he called Batman a talented amature) is canon or not. It retconned stuff, and the retcon has since been ignore in Dragons appearances since then.
Yet Cap has never shown any kind of esoteric or crazy mystical knowledge the likes of which DD or Batman have shown A decent indicator of skill. Those two sure as hell know more 'secret' arts than he does IMO. Yet Cap is still top tier of course.Then we have Iron Fist who years back called Cap's skill 'basic'. Not even in a, 'basic but effective' way....just basic as in nothing compared to his Kun Lun Kung fu or whatever.
Elektra? Forgive me if I'm wrong but has she also ever shown any kind nerve strike, or............death poke (lol it's late). I don't read much on her. Though she is still a top tier.
If you ask me DC top tiers (i.e Shiva,Dragon Bats) seem to be far more clued up on 'death moves' or secret arts than their Marvel counterparts, who are almost always stronger,faster etc and would consequently win if the two fought.
Even the new crop of DC MA's for example Connor Hawke have not shown the kind of knowledge people like Bats or Shiva have shown. The whole thing about characters knowing all styles on Earth gets a bit overrated in my opinion. I just can't see Logan punking any-other top tier the way he punked Shang to be fair. Which I guess is one of the reasons why Shangs skill compared to other Marvel or DC MA's doesn't really impress me.
Originally posted by Warrior18
Yet Cap has never shown any kind of esoteric or crazy mystical knowledge the likes of which DD or Batman have shown A decent indicator of skill. Those two sure as hell know more 'secret' arts than he does IMO. Yet Cap is still top tier of course.Then we have Iron Fist who years back called Cap's skill 'basic'. Not even in a, 'basic but effective' way....just basic as in nothing compared to his Kun Lun Kung fu or whatever.
Elektra? Forgive me if I'm wrong but has she also ever shown any kind nerve strike, or............death poke (lol it's late). I don't read much on her. Though she is still a top tier.
If you ask me DC top tiers (i.e Shiva,Dragon Bats) seem to be far more clued up on 'death moves' or secret arts than their Marvel counterparts, who are almost always stronger,faster etc and would consequently win if the two fought.
Even the new crop of DC MA's for example Connor Hawke have not shown the kind of knowledge people like Bats or Shiva have shown. The whole thing about characters knowing all styles on Earth gets a bit overrated in my opinion. I just can't see Logan punking any-other top tier the way he punked Shang to be fair. Which I guess is one of the reasons why Shangs skill compared to other Marvel or DC MA's doesn't really impress me.
Argh wall of text!
Most of it comes down to style. Guys like Batman, Shang-Chi, Ironfist or Richard are all skilled to be sure but where they differ from some one like Cap is practicality. Most of their fighting styles have many sport elements, Captain America on the other hand is more of an efficient/practicle fighter. Does that make him worse? I don't think so.... but he certainly isn't as flashy as some of the other MAs. I mean, you are more likely to see Batman bust out a spinning round house to some guys face than Cap... but thats because any fighter worth his weight knows you really shouldn't try to kick higher than knees unless you want your opponent to take you down and then ground and pound your ass. Cap fights like a fighter, Batman fights like he is in a movie. /shrug
Elektra has used nerve strikes before, as for death strikes... well... she ripped a dudes still beating heart out of his chest once. Cap has used pressure points also, he has also displayed a limited knowledge of chi... not sure if he knows and "death-touches," but since the History channel proved that real humans MAs can make the heart rupture / explode with a single move, I imagine Cap could to it if he wanted to... but I don't think he would.
Shang is getting a rematch with Logan this month in Wolverine First Class, which I imagine will by a much more even fight considering it is the main billing for the issue. 😉
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Argh wall of text!Most of it comes down to style. Guys like Batman, Shang-Chi, Ironfist or Richard are all skilled to be sure but where they differ from some one like Cap is practicality. Most of their fighting styles have many sport elements, Captain America on the other hand is more of an efficient/practicle fighter. Does that make him worse? I don't think so.... but he certainly isn't as flashy as some of the other MAs. I mean, you are more likely to see Batman bust out a spinning round house to some guys face than Cap... but thats because any fighter worth his weight knows you really shouldn't try to kick higher than knees unless you want your opponent to take you down and then ground and pound your ass. Cap fights like a fighter, Batman fights like he is in a movie. /shrug
Elektra has used nerve strikes before, as for death strikes... well... she ripped a dudes still beating heart out of his chest once. Cap has used pressure points also, he has also displayed a limited knowledge of chi... not sure if he knows and "death-touches," but since the History channel proved that real humans MAs can make the heart rupture / explode with a single move, I imagine Cap could to it if he wanted to... but I don't think he would.
Shang is getting a rematch with Logan this month in Wolverine First Class, which I imagine will by a much more even fight considering it is the main billing for the issue. 😉
1. True. Though I wouldn't count on comic book artists bringing realism into fight scenes. Whenever they want to show a skilled fighter, they usually have them bussing out some wushu stance or something. lol
2.Heck Cap could probably just straight up punch through someone. 😉
But to be fair he has never exactly made people go blind or temporarily paralyzed them etc, but you make a good point.
3. Lol man I'm off to google 'History channel' and 'death moves'. 😄
Originally posted by Warrior18
By the way Batgirl learned escrima in five minutesOk now these Speed feats are insane.
http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batgirl10pg119mk.jpg
http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batgirl10pg126jn.jpg
http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batgirl10pg135pp.jpgSome more.
http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batgirl13pg013ui.jpg
http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batgirl13pg026ds.jpg
http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batgirl13pg031oj.jpg
http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batgirl13pg049po.jpgI personally don't think Elektra's speed feats trump these.
That's ****ing insane. But I don't buy that DC's MA> Marvel's or the other way around. We have MANY street levelers that has mastered most or all MA styles. And we have special abilities from each side like chi amping, mild tp, etc... So that's bs, IMO.
Originally posted by cloud102
That's ****ing insane. But I don't buy that DC's MA> Marvel's or the other way around. We have MANY street levelers that has mastered most or all MA styles. And we have special abilities from each side like chi amping, mild tp, etc... So that's bs, IMO.
Yep. I think it's hard to compare top tiers skill wise because they essentially do the same stuff. Guess we have to settle for the odd canon crossover to help decide. 😄
However DC doesn't have any ampers who can do the things Iron Fist is capable of though.
