Originally posted by nij-ayias
It was fiction, it's hard to tell if it was less dense than oxygen or not.
Hard to tell if the moon was less dense than oxygen or not? When the JLA had their watchtower built on it? You realize that after this, I can't take anything you say seriously anymore, right?
Besides, comics’ information what matters most in the fictional comics not science unless it was stated by some scientific measurement. And it was a fictional moon created from a shadow that can become solid or intangible, meaning there’s no such evidence about being dense. Please know when to distinguish reality from fiction.
He said it had the same mass as the real moon, which is clearly solid. Stop being obtuse. Also if you were being consistent with your pseudo-logic you would conclude that it's impossible to determine, analyze, or quantify anything since it's all "just fiction" so this entire debate would be completely pointless, yet you are still participating in it. Take your stolen concept fallacies and shove them where the sun don't shine.
[b]Since when did “unknown properties, probably or either that” became a quantifiable and valid evidence?
Since we needed an explanation for the discrepancy between the much higher damage he has taken without being KO'd, and the fact that the moon was not made out of normal matter.
1.) For you it's unknown properties, but Rocket stated in that issue its power source and nobody ever said it was responsible for knocking out Superman.
So you need everything handed to you on a silver platter? It was never said that the moon's mass was responsible for knocking out Superman either, so going by your logic it's equally likely that what knocked him out was a troop of invisible magic elves from candyland 🙄
2.) And Superman didn’t fly too fast, it was stated that “he was not going to go that fast, though he wants to stay under to increase his mass dramatically”. Also, Superman slams both his fists (like a rocket) into the shadow moon, not himself.
Way to miss the point. Going faster than light does not invoke relativistic effects, whereas going near the speed of light but under does. So the closer you get to lightspeed the more your mass and energy increase - therefore depending on how close to lightspeed he was the kinetic energy he had would have been enormous. Not to mention that hitting the moon with his fists first is completely irrelevant, the KE is delivered the same way anyway. Please read up on Einstein's general theory of relativity and get back to me.
Again, 81 billion tons mass and its speed are clearer than your “unknown properties argument” which never been stated as dangerous to Supes or anyone.
Except we know for a fact that it could not have possibly been 81 billion tons, since that number is clearly nonsensical. Furthermore, Superman has taken much more and been fine, so therefore we have to assume some other factor was involved.
Flash's relativity punch did create a ground explosions too, JLA 4. Meaning, attack that instantly increases its mass (or gain from relativity) can create an explosion as it was portrayed in comics and not in the real world science or assumption.
What? How does this have anything to do with what I just said? You're simply babbling randomly now.
First of all, I know Superman can withstand a supernova but was knocked out.
No he wasn't. He survived even though the red sunlight was sapping his powers and got away when he was still conscious.
I’m not bias, you’re just over exaggerating the feats.
You're taking one feat and claiming it as his maximum while ignoring all of his higher showings.
1.) Between Apokolips and New Genesis in DOTNG: Superman was knocked out or unconscious and that’s what I’m trying to prove here.
Please show me where he was knocked out - if he was (and there's no evidence he was) it was for less time than in JLA #30, and he had already taken a beating from Darkseid previously. So he sustained less damage from a much greater force. Therefore we have an inconsistency.
2.) Suneater: Superman was knocked out or unconscious and that’s what I’m trying to prove here.
No he was not. Show me the panel where he was unconscious. Keep in mind I'm referring to the most recent sun-eater incident, not the one in the early 90s where he was much weaker than he is now.
CORRECTIONS:3.) INSIDE OF WW IN OWAW: Superman flew right after he was informed about the countdown of the planet’s destruction, then the next page shows that Superman was outside the planet’s explosion. Is that Superman withstanding a point blank range planet buster? Stop exaggerating that Superman was inside a force of the exploding planet. The scan shows that he was outside the explosion. Again, stop exaggerating.
No, he simply escaped so fast that the explosion was still in progress. You do realize that something like a planet exploding maintains a large fireball that persists for a while, right?
You can even see here:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8127/survplane2uv4.jpg
He is clearly caught in the explosion and states that he has a ringing in his ear (if he had escaped it before it exploded that would be impossible - sound doesn't carry through space).
4.) Inside the moon in that one future arc:: I suggest you re-read that issue because it was stated that “the disintegration of the moon was meant to an event so powerful, so cataclysmic that the time stream would be so unstable to sent Superman back in 20th century and not to blast him directly.” It was stated by Linear Man that it’s a time trip invulnerability feat and not moon busting. Meaning, Superman didn’t receive the force of the exploding moon. Again, stop exaggerating.
The moon exploded, didn't it? He was inside of it, was he not? That quote merely proves that it was so far beyond moonbusting that it had the added side effect of disrupting time, so really that just makes it more impressive. Thank you for bolstering my argument.
My point here is we don’t need supernova to knock Superman unconscious, planet/moon buster is enough. It's a very clear comics portrayal that 81 billion tons planet busting can knock Superman unconscious.
Except it was clearly not 81 billion tons, Batman clearly meant to say 81 quintillion tons, since that is the mass of the actual moon. Claiming that the DCverse moon is 10 order of magnitude less massive is retarded, as its density would be less than oxygen, it would not be solid, it would not have craters, people would not be able to walk or build things on it, it would be unable to effect the tides, it would not even be that big. Character dialogue is not infallible, even Batman. Remember when he said that the 10-eyed man was the most dangerous man on earth? Do you really believe that, too? Taking character dialogue over observed facts in the comics is retarded.
In one comic Supergirl stated that Silver Banshee was hitting her with a billion decibels. In case you didn't know, decibels are a logarithmic scale, and a billion decibels is far in excess of the estimated mass - energy content of the entire universe. FYI, she was not knocked out.
So either accept Batman was wrong about the mass of the moon or accept Supergirl can tank multi-universe busters.
I’m sure you won’t find feats where Superman withstands a direct hit or point blank range planet buster without getting knocked out. If you miraculously find one, tell me the issue and I will examine if it is over exaggerated or not.
You mean that you'll make some stupid excuse to say it doesn't count. Again, DOTNG, OWAW, Sun-eater, that bomb the Auctioneer was going to destroy the earth with, etc.
Hell, using your standards of evidence, I might as well claim that any time he took a hit from anyone who has ever destroyed a planet, or anyone who has ever fought evenly or has the same powers as anyone who ever destroyed a planet, it counts as taking a planetbuster. May I remind you that an average GL can bust planets?
Of course I'm not ridiculously dishonest, so I wont use this argument.
Superman can be knockout by a direct hit moon/planet buster, it's fact.
Except, you know, not.
Lightspeed won't mess shit up, why? Because supersonic could create sonic boom and near lightspeed could increase the user's mass dramatically. If lightspeed would mess shit up, then Superman should have used it on the shadow moon but instead he didn't because lightspeed cannot create sonic boom or increase his mass dramatically.
Actually, lightspeed would "mess things up", since an object with mass moving at lightspeed holds infinite energy. That's why Superboy Prime said he was going to destroy the universe by flying through Oa at lightspeed. Please read up on relativity.
Besides, you are ignoring a major fact: In order to get to lightspeed, he has to accelerate first. Meaning he'll have to go past relativistic speed first. Sure, if he's already FTL he could probably fly on earth without messing shit up, but he would have to accelerate to reach that speed first.
In otherwords, under lighstpeed will create more side-effect damage than lightspeed. [/B]
Actually, under lightspeed creates more damage than FTL, but not lightspeed, yet he needs to accelerate to reach those speeds, thus going through the dangerous relativistic speeds first.
