Darth Vader vs Darth Nihilus

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Except the ship was supposedly wrecked and un-usable; it was crushed. This is contradicted, because it is running fine, even after his death. Can you find proof that he had it repaired, or used the force to repair it.

Vader is shown in TFU to crush a durasteel hut. This would consist of him crumpling the various walls. Therefore the feat is essentially the destruction of several sheets of durasteel simultaneously. Do you really want to argue that crushing 12 (6 planes in a cube, doubled to account for walls) sheets of metal took more overall force than to lift a kilometer long spaceship, while having to maintain the structural integrity (such as it was) of said ship? You have to see reason.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

For the record, it is harder to crush a tin can, than it is to lift a cardboard box

In a last, probably misguided attempt to show the utter failure of the analogies this far, lets quantify the force. We'll use nice round numbers, and I think that I have to say that I'm pulling the figures out of my ass. This isn't definitive, it is meant as an example of how phrasing the accomplishments in today's terms warps and skews the comparison.

Force required to lift Ravager: 100,000
Force required to crush 12 metal plates: 1000

Note: the units or even specific numbers are irrelevant. Focus on how the relationship between the two figures changes as we cram them into everyday situations.

Human experience occupies a very small portion of reality: everything travels very slowly in comparison with c, matter is impermeable to other matter, and our physical perceptions and ability to shape our environment are extremely limited. (We see only a sliver of the EM spectrum and our bodies exert relatively small amounts of force on our environment.) To fit the number 100,000 into our experience, we have to diminish it and compare it to our own world. The metaphor of choice here was "lifting a cardboard box." This seems valid, as in both cases an object is lifted. How about we call lifting a cardboard box equal to 10 units.

The problem arises when we try to find a everyday analogue to crushing something. Clearly we can't just say "lifted something lighter" because a very different motion is being attempted. We have to find something that we crush that would be as easy in comparrison to crushing durasteel as lifting a box was to lifting the Ravager. If lifting the box is equal to .0001 times the force of the Ravager, then crushing this object must be equal to .0001 times the force to crush the metal. We need something two orders off magnitude easier to do than lift a cardboard box. I know of no such thing. Perhaps crumpling a sheet of paper.

Now we have:
Lifting the Ravager = 100,000 : lifting a box = 10
We had to find a similar ratio.
Crushing the hut = 1000 : crumpling a piece of paper = .1

In both cases, the original force was multiplied by .0001 to cram it into human life. This shows why a piece of paper was a better analogy, but what happens if we use a tin can?

Lifting the Ravager = 100,000 : lifting a box = 10 (just like before)
Crushing the hut = 1000 : Crushing a tin can = ________

The tin can has to be > lifting a box (I think- does anyone know for sure which takes more effort?) but it destroys the equation. It changes the setup from a formula into an inequality,
(100000 : 1000 =/= 10 : [x>10])
which just shows that the tin can simply does not fit here. It might if you would replace the cardboard box with, say, a car, but your analogy is flawed. The fact that it can be proved mathematically just shows how far off base you were.

I hope you followed this, because I might have the patience for one more response without an ad homenim. I don't know if I can keep this up without flaming someone.

Aw heck, I can't resist: You haven't got a shred of an argument left. Give it up.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

It's quite obvious that he didn't repair it; there are still portions open to hard vacuum. We now have 2 contradicting canon sources, but I believe that KotOR takes precedence. (because it rocks my sox off.) If Kotor is to be believed, then we have N lifting a mostly intact ship off of the surface of a planet. This is a valid feat, as it is canon. Wisely, you have not disputed this. He had to maintain its integrity as he lifted it miles into the air. This shows both power and skill.

Vader is shown in TFU to crush a durasteel hut. This would consist of him crumpling the various walls. Therefore the feat is essentially the destruction of several sheets of durasteel simultaneously. Do you really want to argue that crushing 12 (6 planes in a cube, doubled to account for walls) sheets of metal took more overall force than to lift a kilometer long spaceship, while having to maintain the structural integrity (such as it was) of said ship? You have to see reason.

Therein lies the dificulty in comparing such larger than life accomplishments to daily life. There is no common analog to lifting a 1200 meter spaceship. We (and clearly you) simply can't grasp the massive quantities of energy we are dealing with.

In a last, probably misguided attempt to show the utter failure of the analogies this far, lets quantify the force. We'll use nice round numbers, and I think that I have to say that I'm pulling the figures out of my ass. This isn't definitive, it is meant as an example of how phrasing the accomplishments in today's terms warps and skews the comparison.

Force required to lift Ravager: 100,000
Force required to crush 12 metal plates: 1000

Note: the units or even specific numbers are irrelevant. Focus on how the relationship between the two figures changes as we cram them into everyday situations.

Human experience occupies a very small portion of reality: everything travels very slowly in comparison with c, matter is impermeable to other matter, and our physical perceptions and ability to shape our environment are extremely limited. (We see only a sliver of the EM spectrum and our bodies exert relatively small amounts of force on our environment.) To fit the number 100,000 into our experience, we have to diminish it and compare it to our own world. The metaphor of choice here was "lifting a cardboard box." This seems valid, as in both cases an object is lifted. How about we call lifting a cardboard box equal to 10 units.

The problem arises when we try to find a everyday analogue to crushing something. Clearly we can't just say "lifted something lighter" because a very different motion is being attempted. We have to find something that we crush that would be as easy in comparrison to crushing durasteel as lifting a box was to lifting the Ravager. If lifting the box is equal to .0001 times the force of the Ravager, then crushing this object must be equal to .0001 times the force to crush the metal. We need something two orders off magnitude easier to do than lift a cardboard box. I know of no such thing. Perhaps crumpling a sheet of paper.

Now we have:
Lifting the Ravager = 100,000 : lifting a box = 10
We had to find a similar ratio.
Crushing the hut = 1000 : crumpling a piece of paper = .1

In both cases, the original force was multiplied by .0001 to cram it into human life. This shows why a piece of paper was a better analogy, but what happens if we use a tin can?

Lifting the Ravager = 100,000 : lifting a box = 10 (just like before)
Crushing the hut = 1000 : Crushing a tin can = ________

The tin can has to be > lifting a box (I think- does anyone know for sure which takes more effort?) but it destroys the equation. It changes the setup from a formula into an inequality,
(100000 : 1000 =/= 10 : [x>10])
which just shows that the tin can simply does not fit here. It might if you would replace the cardboard box with, say, a car, but your analogy is flawed. The fact that it can be proved mathematically just shows how far off base you were.

I hope you followed this, because I might have the patience for one more response without an ad homenim. I don't know if I can keep this up without flaming someone.

Aw heck, I can't resist: You haven't got a shred of an argument left. Give it up.

I can argue that Nihilus only lifted several sheets of durasteel, since it consists of mainly open space. Besides i already told you i am not comparing those two feats alone. I was using the hut example, along with him catching heavy pillars, and tearing down a bridge, to show Vader does not entirely lack raw power. Then i used the example of him being able to kill someone across the vast distance of space, to show that he is awesome with skill. Vader also force gripped Starkiller and threw him out the view port rather easy.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I can argue that Nihilus only lifted several sheets of durasteel, since it consists of mainly open space.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Besides i already told you i am not comparing those two feats alone.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I was using the hut example,

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

along with him catching heavy pillars, and tearing down a bridge,

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

to show Vader does not entirely lack raw power.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Then i used the example of him being able to kill someone across the vast distance of space, to show that he is awesome with skill.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Vader also force gripped Starkiller and threw him out the view port rather easy.

Edit: Screw it. You win. A headless ewok is better than Palpatine. LotF Luke got killed by Knightfa11's create a sith. (the parody) I'm done with you. You are by far the least intelligent human I've ever met online- including Youtube. (BOOG wasn't human- you've got him beat for now.)

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader also force gripped Starkiller and threw him out the view port rather easy.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

How, specifically does this translate to superskill? It shows good visuospatial skills, but I can't imagine that a universal energy field like the force diminishes in power with distance. Yoda could sense every single Jedi, Palpatine could interfere with those same Jedi's perceptions, Palpatine could maintain a link with Mara Jade across the galaxy, Ben Kenobi- by no means a Force God like Yoda and Sidious- could sense the destruction of Alderaan from another dimension while millions of miles away. Heck, Bastilla could sense things happening on Dantooine while she was lightyears away. Distant use of the Force is nothing special.

[/B]

Well thats like saying "Its easy to scope in on this terrorist x miles away, but it doesn't take any skill to actually shoot him with accuracy since other dicks can scope in on him too".

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

A warship also has weapons, sensors, armor, subsystems, engines, smaller snub fighters, God Damned Shield Generators and is a FU*KING KILOMETER LONG.

This is the last straw. No one this stupid deserves my attention. You're on ignore.

The point remains that none of Vader's TK feats come anywhere close to matching this. N is miles and miles ahead of Vader.

A very poor one

Neither of these compare to the Ravager. N's applied power >>>> Vader's. Fact.

Even I acknowledged that. He is simply dwarfed by N's capabilities.

How, specifically does this translate to superskill?

It shows good visuospatial skills, but I can't imagine that a universal energy field like the force diminishes in power with distance.

Yoda could sense every single Jedi, Palpatine could interfere with those same Jedi's perceptions, Palpatine could maintain a link with Mara Jade across the galaxy

Ben Kenobi- by no means a Force God like Yoda and Sidious- could sense the destruction of Alderaan from another dimension while millions of miles away

. Heck, Bastilla could sense things happening on Dantooine while she was lightyears away. Distant use of the Force is nothing special.

And this is more impressive than lifting a F'ing spaceship because...?

Edit: Screw it. You win. A headless ewok is better than Palpatine. LotF Luke got killed by Knightfa11's create a sith. (the parody) I'm done with you. You are by far the least intelligent human I've ever met online- including Youtube. (BOOG wasn't human- you've got him beat for now.) [/B]

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well if i made the same arguement as everyone else in the other debate, i can say well a spaceship is not force sensitive, and Starkiller is.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
[B]After Vader unexpectedly stabbed in the back and based on what Marek says in that scene, he clearly was not trying to defend himself. [/B]

Your comment was exactly what i though, when all you guys tried to argue that Dooku force choking Kenobi, was more impressive than Windu taking out thousands of droids with one force wave.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kinda hard to ignore yourself.

Red said "no one this stupid deserves my attention... you're going on ignore." I guess S66 was trying to say that Red is "this stupid" and thus would have to try and ignore himself.

Clever bastard.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
When the hell did anyone make that comparison? Though I will say that base on the original cw cartoon of the battle of dantooine that Mace should have been killed, at one point he is completely surrounded by the battle droids (right before the force wave?) and only the ones in front of him fired while the others just stood there....... But Dooku's force choke on Kenobi is more impressive then the force choke/throw on Marek because Kenobi was engaging Dooku in combat along with another elite duelist in Anakin Skywalker but Marek was just stabbed and was begging/trying to convince Vader that together they could beat Palpatine.

I meant Ventress. When they said force choking Ventress was real impressive, when she was not even engaging him in battle, and did not expect it. The time Vader threw Starkiller off the mountain, Starkiller had more than enough time to put his force defenses up, but was un-able to break Vader's grip.

And you people bitched at me when I put someone on ignore. Now, Red, you know my pain. Never judge me again, fool.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I meant Ventress.

When they said force choking Ventress was real impressive, when she was not even engaging him in battle, and did not expect it.

The time Vader threw Starkiller off the mountain, Starkiller had more than enough time to put his force defenses up, but was un-able to break Vader's grip.

Then he certainly wasn't ready when Vader threw him to the edge mountain as he was on his hand and knees, he couldn't even get up, there was no way he could have stopped Vader here.

Originally posted by Gideon
And you people bitched at me when I put someone on ignore. Now, Red, you know my pain. Never judge me again, fool.

I do know your pain. I retract anything bad I said about you.

What is UP with everybody putting everybody on ignore nowadays? I mean, dude. What's the point of it? If you want, just don't reply to the other guy.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

Erm, Galen was visibly surprise to see Vader there due to the fact that Vader "agreed to stay away." I doubt he ready for the initial table(or whatever the object is) that Vader hit him with because Marek takes a step back and has the look of "wtf you doing here," on his face.]

Then he certainly wasn't ready when Vader threw him to the edge mountain as he was on his hand and knees, he couldn't even get up, there was no way he could have stopped Vader here.

Before Vader through him to the edge of the mountain, he had already assaulted Starkiller with a force push. That gave Galen plenty of time to put up a force defense for the second attack.

Also during Vader's duel with Galen at the end, Vader used the force to knock Galen on his ass, when Galen was prepared.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Before Vader through him to the edge of the mountain, he had already assaulted Starkiller with a force push.

I said that in my post

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Erm, Galen was visibly surprise to see Vader there due to the fact that Vader "agreed to stay away." I doubt he ready for the initial table(or whatever the object is) that Vader hit him with because Marek takes a step back and has the look of "wtf you doing here," on his face.

That gave Galen plenty of time to put up a force defense for the second attack.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Then he certainly wasn't ready when Vader threw him to the edge mountain as he was on his hand and knees, he couldn't even get up, there was no way he could have stopped Vader here.

Also during Vader's duel with Galen at the end, Vader used the force to knock Galen on his ass, when Galen was prepared.

This is going to be my last comment to you Red. I do not know if you will read it or not, but i thought i would make this last point to you.

It amazes me how you criticized all my arguements, when this is the most stupidist arguement in the entire thread(besides sigma's hut comment):

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

For the record, I dislike the idea that no-one can be very much better than Vader, simply because no one is allowed to be better than Palpatine. Isn't it ABC logic to say that if N. curbstomps Vader with his TK (which is fact) then he would also curbstomp Sidious? Vader=/=Sidious, and the two have very different approaches to combat and the Force itself. I don't think that Palpatine puts an upper limit on the power of those able to defeat Vader.

Being only 20% less than Sidious in power would make Vader pretty damn powerful. It would make him one of the most powerful. Now i am not saying he can woop any sith other than Palps, i am saying that no sith would be far greater, as you say Nihilus is. Tk is Vader's strongest area, and his most skillful force power. If you claim he is far stronger than Vader in TK, you are saying he is far stronger than Vader in the force, which Sidious is not even far stronger.

You say Nihilus is stronger than Vader, because of a one time thing he did with a massive ship, which dwarfed any of Vader's showings as far as raw power. You also said it was a fact that Nihilus was far stronger than Vader with TK, even though you do not know how much effort or how long it took for Nihilus to lift the ship. It could have took Nihilus hours to lift the ship. You implied that Nihilus was stronger because he demonstrated something Vader has not. Nihilus has also demonstrated more raw power than Sidious has prior to DE, so does that make him stronger than Sidious? No. Canon proves this. Canon also proves that Vader was not too far behind Sidious as far as strength in the force, and not just canon, but the god of all SW canon... George Lucas himself.

I do believe Vader and Nihilus are extremely close. You say Nihilus is far above Vader, which is impossible.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I said that in my post

I addressed this too.

I haven't had the chance to read the novel(which I assume is your source) yet but I'll take your for it. But you should have cited this instance instead of the one on Corellia.

I cited the instance on Corellia, because i was comparing it with there arguements about how Dooku did Ventress, which is pretty much the same as Vader did to Starkiller on Corellia. They both were attacked unsuspectedly.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I cited the instance on Corellia, because i was comparing it with there arguements about how Dooku did Ventress, which is pretty much the same as Vader did to Starkiller on Corellia. They both were attacked unsuspectedly.

As I already said I'll leave the Ventress incident to whoever originally brought the point up since I don't remember the incident well.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I can quote you twice where you have said that Marek was prepared for Vader's second attack on the mountain...so judging by this post you admit that I was right. 😈

As I already said I'll leave the Ventress incident to whoever originally brought the point up since I don't remember the incident well.

I know what you said. I was just telling you why i cited the Corellia instant instead of the other. You would have to read DR to get it though.