Darth Vader vs Darth Nihilus

Started by Schwarzenegger10 pages

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
The hut has a hollow living space- by its very definition, in order to function it must be hollow.

I was perhaps overzealous in my initial wording, I was just overenthused because I felt that I had found a way to quell the "LULZ 10 LB DUMBBELL" idiocy. The simple fact is that it is easy to compress a tin can, but no so easy to compress an ingot of metal (like a dumbbell.) I had discovered the exact way in which the analogy was flawed. Vader's feat isn't weak, and by no means is it unimpressive. It is not comparable to N. or even his strongest Force Feat.

Anakin Skywalker used the force to demolish durasteel blast doors on the Invisible hand. He used a Force-Scream to demolish a building in Labyrinth of Evil. He is not weak. To use an example like the demolition of a building, (no matter how many nonsensical prefixes are attached to the name of the material it is made of) to counter a feat like Nilihus's The Ravager is absurd.

The destruction of the blast doors is of most interest to me. The force required to bend the metal would be similar to that required to crush the hut, as they were both made of the same material. The only difference between the two events is the direction of the force: On the IH the force came from 1 direction, the hut required multiple angles. The applied energy would be roughly equal, or perhaps proportional to the Hut's size.

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The destruction of a building simply requires less force than the levitation of a warship. To argue otherwise is to argue from ignorance. When compared with N.'s feat, it simply does not measure up.. N.'s TK >>> Vader's. (That we have been shown thus far.)

For the record, I dislike the idea that no-one can be very much better than Vader, simply because no one is allowed to be better than Palpatine. Isn't it ABC logic to say that if N. curbstomps Vader with his TK (which is fact) then he would also curbstomp Sidious? Vader=/=Sidious, and the two have very different approaches to combat and the Force itself. I don't think that Palpatine puts an upper limit on the power of those able to defeat Vader.

No body is arguing that vaders TK surpasses that of N except SID 66 but thanks for clearing that up.

But why i brought up the If N could >>>> Vader that he could >>> Sid as well is not simply because of that stupid A>B>C nonsense crap that anime fanwankers love to employ.

While it is true that vader and palpatines approach to combat and the force, how does that stop palpatine from getting raped by TK that lifted a ship and crushed his apprentice? There are people who make it sound like vader isn't going to conjure up any kind of defence or a counter attack and just outright let N annihilate him with the force.

I just don't get it, if such aw3s0m3 TK is going to curbstomp vader, i can see the same happening to someone merely 20% more powerful even if his approach to combat is different.

EDIT: If his TK can really cause so much damage, why wasn't it emplyed during the battle against the exile in his ship? Yes he was weakened and was going to get killed but i still don't see why he wouldn't employ TK to disarm them or even kill them.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
EDIT: If his TK can really cause so much damage, why wasn't it emplyed during the battle against the exile in his ship? Yes he was weakened and was going to get killed but i still don't see why he wouldn't employ TK to disarm them or even kill them.
The cut-content had him doing just that; levitating the Exile and Visas. He also did something rather confusing to Sion; a combination of some sort of drain, lightning, and telekinesis that killed Sion's guards and brought the Sith Lord to his knees. Kinda cool.

If his TK can really cause so much damage, why wasn't it emplyed during the battle against the exile in his ship? Yes he was weakened and was going to get killed but i still don't see why he wouldn't employ TK to disarm them or even kill them.

stupid plot elements? kotor 2 didn't have the best of plot or thinking behind it's story.

Originally posted by Faunus
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And it's not only an example of raw power. Vader's greatest feat was an application of raw power focused by skill. So was Nihilus's.
Nihilus still has never shown the skill to reach out across the vast distance of space and strangle someone.

[quote] And...?

And it is a different technique entirely. It would be differet if Vader lifted the hut, and i compare it to Nihilus lifting the Ravager.

I responded to this:
You keep comparing the weight, which is irrelevent, because Vader did not lift the hut, he crushed it.

Try to keep up.
You are going in circles, and not getting my point.

Yes I did.
No you didn't.

Do you plan on actually addressing any of my points?
Do you plan on getting mine?

Oh wait, I know: "do you plan on talking any of mine i suck at math
What?

Read what I posted. Then read what I responded to.

what was i lying about?

Sidious's mastery is greater.
And by showings his raw power is to.

This example still sucks, btw.
If you claim it sucks, than you are admitting your own arguement sucks.

He tore down a castle after rebuilding it telekinetically, stopped a Force-push that was powered by the combined Force-potential of an entire species, and "with no apparent effort" pinned Jacen Solo - a man who was more powerful than Vader - to a chair.
And you are comparing that to being able to ravage cities from a distance, crushing entire star fleets, or tear surfaces off worlds?

Also in Star Wars: The comics companion, it stated that Sidious's force storm threatened to consume all of space. Luke has never demonstrated that kind of power. So that makes Palpatine > Luke as far as the force goes, period.

Wow, go back to school.
Can't say the same about you. They won't even consider you.

Again, mine are awesome.
I know because you said so.

Faunus > All, even the writers of SW.

Because fighting is analogous to lifting or crushing things?
Not when fighting with the force. Unless you are saying they are just going to stand there and have a competition of who can lift the most, or crush the most.

Stop being stupid.
You are having doubts about your own arguements, so you resort to the insults.

Take a pill, and calm your nerves.

Irrelevant, and rather stupid.
So was your cardboard box example.

Yeah...
Oh, you bet.

You're not witty. You're embarrassing.
LOL. Am i embarrassing you?

He was. You aren't.
Are you blind or clue-less?

And you can thank for me correcting your butchery of the quote function.
Again you resort to sarcastic insults.

Another post as stupid as this one and I swear I'll PM REX. This crossed the line a page ago, but it's quickly becoming tiresome rather than amusing.

Be my guessed. What are you going to tell him, " I can't prove Sidious66 wrong, so i start insulting him. Can you please tell him to agree with me, even though i keep up insulting him?"

Your examples were no better that mine. No matter what you say, i don't believe Nihilus has more skill in TK. Vader has shown he can do just about everything with TK.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Aside from this battle, are you actually downplaying vaders feats claiming that him crushing a massive hut isn't anything special nor is it a feat at all? And where wa it stated to be hollow? The hut itself or the foundations of it? Just a little confused.

They have no proof that the hut was hollow. The book says the walls of the hut was as strong as durasteel. Of course the inside may be hollow, but that does not mean the wall were.

Your examples were no better that mine. No matter what you say

faunus and red gave you detailed explanations about the laws of physics and why your points were wrong. all you have done is brushed them aside and made the bold claim your examples were better. this thread is pointless because you just want to win,no matter what. you have simply said nothing to prove them wrong.deal with it and move on.and yes i know it isn't my business. but it needs to be said.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
faunus and red gave you detailed explanations about the laws of physics and why your points were wrong. all you have done is brushed them aside and made the bold claim your examples were better. this thread is pointless because you just want to win,no matter what. you have simply said nothing to prove them wrong.deal with it and move on.and yes i know it isn't my business. but it needs to be said.

They never proved that Nihilus was more skilled in TK than Vader. Red keeps saying it takes skill to hold Ravager together, when we know he didn't. When Nihilus was killed the ravager was still held together. Was he holding it together even though he was dead?

The weight lifting examples they gave were poor, so i used Faunus's example against him. I said lifting 600 hundred pounds in the air was a lot easier than crushing a small 10 pound dubbell.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
They never proved that Nihilus was more skilled in TK than Vader. Red keeps saying it takes skill to hold Ravager together, when we know he didn't. When Nihilus was killed the ravager was still held together. Was he holding it together even though he was dead?

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dontgetitbanginbashblowup

They never proved that Nihilus was more skilled in TK than Vader.

they have. the sad thing is they shouldn't have to. i've been wrong in this thread 66,but i can admit that. why can't you? why is it so hard?
your points make no sense..actually you've made none.

I said lifting 600 hundred pounds in the air was a lot easier than crushing a small 10 pound dubbell.

my knowledge of physics is nowhere near his. but you have to be quite dense to have missed his point this many times....

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
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dontgetitbanginbashblowup

they have. the sad thing is they shouldn't have to. i've been wrong in this thread 66,but i can admit that. why can't you? why is it so hard?
your points make no sense..actually you've made none.

No you have made none. Go read Red's comments early in the post. He was unsure who would win in a force contest. Now he is saying Nihilus's power greatly surpasses Vader. So should i take him seriously?

No you have made none. Go read Red's comments early in the post. He was unsure who would win in a force contest. Now he is saying Nihilus's power greatly surpasses Vader. So should i take him seriously?

are you some kind of idiot?(yes) i tried my best to point out how amazing N.s feat was by explaining the physics N defyed. red explained these much more better then i could,he went into detail and gave examples. by saying i've made no point. you argue against logic. by saying they've made no point. you show your inability to understand even the simplest example AND logic.

BTW Sigma, you claim i have made no points. Here was yours:

well it's a hut dude. all huts are hollow.

Then you claim that any force user can crush a hut. Red tells you that is not what he was saying, and then you say oh sorry i was tired(or something like that). That only proves you are going by his word. You are only following the majority of the crowd. Does being tired affect your opinion? Think for your self, please.

Then you claim that any force user can crush a hut. Red tells you that is not what he was saying, and then you say oh sorry i was tired(or something like that). That only proves you are going by his word. You are only following the majority of the crowd. Does being tired affect your opinion? Think for your self, please.

i thought i just said i admitted i was wrong two posts ago? did you missed that?

here it is:" i've been wrong in this thread 66,but i can admit that."

i'm not arrogant. i'll admit when i say/do something stupid.

That only proves you are going by his word.

i agree with him you retard. i wouldn't agree with,or trust him if he wasn't using credible information.

You are only following the majority of the crowd.

was that why i was disagreeing with him on page 1? 🙄

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I have now. I thought it was very good. I didn't like how Leia/Han were just sort of dropped before the climax. There should have been some closure in that story arc. Aside from the errors (of which there were many) It rivals TOW as a feat of Fanfiction.

You should take a look at the stories that YodaKenobi has written and is in the process of writing on theforce.net He has his own storyline that starts a NJO AU and then he continues from there into another series. I'm not sure how they compare to TOW (I haven't read it yet) but they are better than a lot of the canon stories out there now. Though I should mention that they aren't exactly short.

His NJO AU storyline is made up of the following:

"Revolution": http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=12867139
"The Eight Cortex": http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=14085947
"The Living Force": http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/16202587/

Next he wrote a story(takes place in the same AU as the above) to set up his next series called "Empire of the Hand": http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/18632333/

The next series(same storyline) which he is currently working on is called "Legacy of The Sith" which I believe will have at least 4 "books" to it.

"The Age of Heroes": http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/22242853/p1/
"Exodus": http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/26099579/p1
He is currently working on the third part of the series called "The Lands of The Dead" http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28522077/p1/

Originally posted by Faunus
The cut-content had him doing just that; levitating the Exile and Visas. He also did something rather confusing to Sion; a combination of some sort of drain, lightning, and telekinesis that killed Sion's guards and brought the Sith Lord to his knees. Kinda cool.
Yeah cut content is non canon but if it was canon i wouldn't be bringing this up, i'm assuming its plot induced stupidity that led nihilus to get his balls kicked along with the fact that the exact circumstances of the battle are unknown.

Nihilus wins for the record.

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
stupid plot elements? kotor 2 didn't have the best of plot or thinking behind it's story.
Yeah i guess.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I have now. I thought it was very good. I didn't like how Leia/Han were just sort of dropped before the climax. There should have been some closure in that story arc. Aside from the errors (of which there were many) It rivals TOW as a feat of Fanfiction.

An absolutely chilling Palpatine.

Hm, Vader is like a massive Force dinner for Nihilus, all that power will be eaten up like chowdah lol

Originally posted by sigma-ct42
i thought i just said i admitted i was wrong two posts ago? did you missed that?
All you did was follow the crowd.

here it is:"[B] i've been wrong in this thread 66,but i can admit that.
Good for you.

Where was i wrong at? I admitted that Nihilus has shown a greater example of raw power, but Vader has shown greater skill. Vader was able to reach out lightyears away and strangle Xizor, which takes a lot of mastery and skill. I know Faunus has argued Mara and Nadd can do the same. We know it is easy for Mara and Luke to feel each other through the force. They are both force sensitive, and have a bond with each other. Nadd was a force ghost, and force ghosts can do some strange things that physical beings can't. Like how Kun was able to instantly appear anywhere he wanted on Yavin, at any time. Now if Kun was not a force ghost, i doubt he would be able to do this.

i'm not arrogant. i'll admit when i say/do something stupid.
The crowd doesn't need to give you much of an expalnation to shape your opinion.

i agree with him you retard. i wouldn't agree with,or trust him if he wasn't using credible information.
Except he did not give you an explanation regarding the hut. He simply told you you were wrong, when you claimed any force user can crush a hut, then your mind suddenly changed with a "Oh sorry i was tired."

was that why i was disagreeing with him on page 1? 🙄
So do you still disagree?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Hm, Vader is like a massive Force dinner for Nihilus, all that power will be eaten up like chowdah lol
Showder.

Isn't this typical of these forums? Four pages of argument on topic dissolve into people trying to negate debating tactics and manners. It's beautiful.

And SIDS, I got your zinger at me. Nice! If you weren't trying to defy all reason I'd give you a high five.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
They never proved that Nihilus was more skilled in TK than Vader. Red keeps saying it takes skill to hold Ravager together, when we know he didn't. When Nihilus was killed the ravager was still held together. Was he holding it together even though he was dead?

Inertia 101: Things at rest tend to stay at rest unless an outside force acts upon them. In this case, it was N's Force acting upon various parts of the ship. If it was lifted unevenly, or if one part was lifted with too much force, or if a different part was allowed to sag, then gravity would tear the ship apart. That is why it took skill for the Ravager to be lifted out of the gravity of the planet. If you want to say "LULZ WE NOW IT DIDNT" then go ahead, but the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. If you could find evidence that supports your contention that it required no skill, or something that shows that maintaining structural integrity was simply part of the lift, then I'd be wrong. But I'm not.

In space there was no force (gravity) acting upon the ship that would pull it apart. It clearly maintained some structural integrity, but as a spaceship that was never designed to land it would not survive the exodus from Malachor's gravity without the Force keeping it intact.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

The weight lifting examples they gave were poor, so i used Faunus's example against him. I said lifting 600 hundred pounds in the air was a lot easier than crushing a small 10 pound dubbell.

If you want to compare it to crushing a tin can, go ahead. To crush a (presumably solid) dumbbell would require compressing it to such a degree that the pressure caused a temperature increase. It can't be done with human strength. There is where your analogy fails. It is not reduced nearly as much as the cardboard box is. In other words: The analogy Lifting the ravager is like lifting a cardboard box is for a human would best be compared with the analogy crushing a durasteel hut is like crushing a tin can for a human. Yours does not fit in.

The Ravager ......The hut
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Lifting a box ..... a tin can

The Ravager..........The hut
--------------- =/= --------------
Lifting a box.........a dumbbell

The analogies aren't compatible.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No you have made none. Go read Red's comments early in the post. He was unsure who would win in a force contest. Now he is saying Nihilus's power greatly surpasses Vader. So should i take him seriously?

So my opinion is no longer valid because I thought more? You are getting desperate. At first I was unsure of who would win. Upon further consideration I determined that N. would win. This does not undermine my point, as I have not contradicted myself.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Inertia 101: Things at rest tend to stay at rest unless an outside force acts upon them. In this case, it was N's Force acting upon various parts of the ship. If it was lifted unevenly, or if one part was lifted with too much force, or if a different part was allowed to sag, then gravity would tear the ship apart. That is why it took skill for the Ravager to be lifted out of the gravity of the planet. If you want to say "LULZ WE NOW IT DIDNT" then go ahead, but the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. If you could find evidence that supports your contention that it required no skill, or something that shows that maintaining structural integrity was simply part of the lift, then I'd be wrong. But I'm not.

In space there was no force (gravity) acting upon the ship that would pull it apart. It clearly maintained some structural integrity, but as a spaceship that was never designed to land it would not survive the exodus from Malachor's gravity without the Force keeping it intact.

If you want to compare it to crushing a tin can, go ahead. To crush a (presumably solid) dumbbell would require compressing it to such a degree that the pressure caused a temperature increase. It can't be done with human strength. There is where your analogy fails. It is not reduced nearly as much as the cardboard box is. In other words: The analogy Lifting the ravager is like lifting a cardboard box is for a human would best be compared with the analogy [b]crushing a durasteel hut is like crushing a tin can for a human. Yours does not fit in.

The Ravager ......The hut
--------------- = -------------
Lifting a box ..... a tin can

The Ravager..........The hut
--------------- =/= --------------
Lifting a box.........a dumbbell

The analogies aren't compatible.

So my opinion is no longer valid because I thought more? You are getting desperate. At first I was unsure of who would win. Upon further consideration I determined that N. would win. This does not undermine my point, as I have not contradicted myself.

Except the ship was supposedly wrecked and un-usable; it was crushed. This is contradicted, because it is running fine, even after his death. Can you find proof that he had it repaired, or used the force to repair it.

For the record, it is harder to crush a tin can, than it is to lift a cardboard box