Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Nihilus
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader is on a mission to Kashyyk, when Nihilus comes to consume the planet.Nihilus goes down to the planet to observe the destruction he has caused, and finds out there has been a survivor, Darth Vader. The two start to battle.
Who wins?
Nhilius would definatly win...he has a higher power ove rthe force and can consume entire planets...he would kick vader pretty hard
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Then he would also kick sidious, the most powerful sith lord pretty hard too.
Darth Sidious is the strongest Sith Lord in the mythos, and one of the strongest Force users ever. He is the strongest. The smartest. The fastest. The best. This is an established interpretation of many sources of canon fact. We could call it a theory. (This is an opportunity to inject the formal sense of the word into daily use.) Now into this interpretation we add two facts: Vader = 80% of Darth Sidious's power, and Darth Nilhius is superior to Vader. By a lot. Some (Ivalice) want to reject the latter fact because it seems to imply that Darth Nihilus is stronger than Sidious, which wrecks our theory. A theory takes some thought though, and something that seems like it does not fit might be a cornerstone for the whole metaphorical edifice.
Darth Vader's great strength is in his ability to augment his physical prowess with the power of the Force (Force Valor) and his skill with telekinesis. We have argued for pages upon pages, and it has been shown that N. is simply better than Vader. The disparity in power is rather large. If asked I will summarize my arguments, but lets use this as a given to prevent me from wandering too far off course. Our challenge, then, comes in the form of reconciling the new fact with our theory, and if this is impossible, to determine which (if either) is flawed.
My initial reaction was to discount the objection as ABC logic, which is not an acceptable comparison. Upon reflection, I found that it is a valid concern, primarily because of the nature of the comparrison. "80% of Palpatine" seems to imply that no one could ever be more than 20% better than Vader. This seems wrong. A third party should not place an upper limit on a pairing's relative power. This clearly had to be fixed.
Option 1: Compartmentalization
Going by instinct, I would argue that Sidious vs N. is one match, and Vader vs N. is another. This appears to fix the problem, but it flies in the face of Project Holocron's methodology. The goal is to find a usable standard of power. To establish a usable precedent I would have to try something else.
Option 2: Qualification
I could retreat. I could concede that N is not "miles" above Vader and thus preserve the Status Quo. I don't like to lose, and I don't like to ignore feats and logic, so I kept thinking.
Option 3: Fanboyism
As incredible as it seems, I contemplated putting on my fanboy hat and simply declaring Darth Nihilus superior to Palpatine. It would be less work in the short term, and it might rejuvenate the forum (which has been kinda dead.) Attention is not always a good thing, so I found a better path:
Option 4: Selective Superiority (I promise this is the last one.)
Darth Nihilus is better, by far, than Vader with the skill of TK. It is likely that he surpasses him by the 20% that would ostensibly put him above Darth Sidious. (If I say much more Gideon will kill me.) By moving past the arbitrary (and probably inaccurate) numbers and looking at the characters as a whole we can dispel the dilemma. We must look at their skills, shown abilities, knowledge and capabilities. It is true that Darth Nihilus has superior TK showings than Palpatine. It is also true that Darth Sidious has a much wider and more diverse knowledge base. Darth Nihilus has shown extreme skill in one technique, but Sidious has advanced (some might say unprecedented) skill in all techniques. I don't know if we've seen any Force Lightning from N, his UBER DRAIN's utility in combat is debatable and his dubious tactical skills would prove a liability against such a smart fighter. Darth Sidious surpasses him in knowledge and skill, and after all:
The ultimate answer to power is skill.
...
I wrote most of this last night, and I'm getting tired, so instead of a formal conclusion I'll just summarize my position.
1. Darth Nihilus is >>> Darth Vader.
2. This might put him above Sidious, but for the fact that:
3. Palpatine has a more skillful and diverse knowledge of the force.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Darth Sidious is the strongest Sith Lord in the mythos, and one of the strongest Force users ever. He is the strongest. The smartest. The fastest. The best. This is an established interpretation of many sources of canon fact. We could call it a theory. (This is an opportunity to inject the formal sense of the word into daily use.) Now into this interpretation we add two facts: Vader = 80% of Darth Sidious's power, and Darth Nilhius is superior to Vader. By a lot. Some (Ivalice) want to reject the latter fact because it seems to imply that Darth Nihilus is stronger than Sidious, which wrecks our theory. A theory takes some thought though, and something that seems like it does not fit might be a cornerstone for the whole metaphorical edifice.Darth Vader's great strength is in his ability to augment his physical prowess with the power of the Force (Force Valor) and his skill with telekinesis. We have argued for pages upon pages, and it has been shown that N. is simply better than Vader. The disparity in power is rather large. If asked I will summarize my arguments, but lets use this as a given to prevent me from wandering too far off course. Our challenge, then, comes in the form of reconciling the new fact with our theory, and if this is impossible, to determine which (if either) is flawed.
My initial reaction was to discount the objection as ABC logic, which is not an acceptable comparison. Upon reflection, I found that it is a valid concern, primarily because of the nature of the comparrison. "80% of Palpatine" seems to imply that no one could ever be more than 20% better than Vader. This seems wrong. A third party should not place an upper limit on a pairing's relative power. This clearly had to be fixed.
[b]Option 1:
Compartmentalization
Going by instinct, I would argue that Sidious vs N. is one match, and Vader vs N. is another. This appears to fix the problem, but it flies in the face of Project Holocron's methodology. The goal is to find a usable standard of power. To establish a usable precedent I would have to try something else.Option 2: Qualification
I could retreat. I could concede that N is not "miles" above Vader and thus preserve the Status Quo. I don't like to lose, and I don't like to ignore feats and logic, so I kept thinking.Option 3: Fanboyism
As incredible as it seems, I contemplated putting on my fanboy hat and simply declaring Darth Nihilus superior to Palpatine. It would be less work in the short term, and it might rejuvenate the forum (which has been kinda dead.) Attention is not always a good thing, so I found a better path:Option 4: Selective Superiority (I promise this is the last one.)
Darth Nihilus is better, by far, than Vader with the skill of TK. It is likely that he surpasses him by the 20% that would ostensibly put him above Darth Sidious. (If I say much more Gideon will kill me.) By moving past the arbitrary (and probably inaccurate) numbers and looking at the characters as a whole we can dispel the dilemma. We must look at their skills, shown abilities, knowledge and capabilities. It is true that Darth Nihilus has superior TK showings than Palpatine. It is also true that Darth Sidious has a much wider and more diverse knowledge base. Darth Nihilus has shown extreme skill in one technique, but Sidious has advanced (some might say unprecedented) skill in all techniques. I don't know if we've seen any Force Lightning from N, his UBER DRAIN's utility in combat is debatable and his dubious tactical skills would prove a liability against such a smart fighter. Darth Sidious surpasses him in knowledge and skill, and after all:Sidious's greater knowledge and tactical skill will always take the victory.
...
I wrote most of this last night, and I'm getting tired, so instead of a formal conclusion I'll just summarize my position.
1. Darth Nihilus is >>> Darth Vader.
2. This might put him above Sidious, but for the fact that:
3. Palpatine has a more skillful and diverse knowledge of the force. [/B]
gosh why is palpy always more knowledgeable in the force..? I would put Yoda above him, and Revan (cuz of fanboyism) above sidious in terms of knowledge..
and i choose option 4 😄
Bravo, Red.
Originally posted by kotorfan
gosh why is palpy always more knowledgeable in the force..?
Because canon authorites say so. He "gathered the greatest works of knowledge from a million worlds" and "studied the Force in all its guises" nonstop for two decades, having access to the works of Darth Plagueis and the Holocrons and libraries from the Jedi Temple. The Dark Empire Sourcebook says that "it is believed [Sidious] has mastered almost all of the known techniques, previously unknown ones, and devises new ones at his leisure."
Knowledge wise, Palpatine is badass and no one is quite on his level.
Originally posted by Gideon
Bravo, Red.Because canon authorites say so. He "gathered the greatest works of knowledge from a million worlds" and "studied the Force in all its guises" nonstop for two decades, having access to the works of Darth Plagueis and the Holocrons and libraries from the Jedi Temple. The Dark Empire Sourcebook says that "it is believed [Sidious] has mastered almost all of the known techniques, previously unknown ones, and devises new ones at his leisure."
Knowledge wise, Palpatine is badass and no one is quite on his level.
what about some electromagnetic missile thing that he wanted to learn about?
Re: Re: Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Nihilus
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Then he would also kick sidious, the most powerful sith lord pretty hard too.
Yeah that is how i see it. People are going to keep saying Nihilus surpasses Vader in Tk, because of a one time thing he did with the Ravager. The thing is they do not know how long it took Nihilus to lift the Ravager. It could have required hours of deep meditation for Nihilus to lift Ravager off the planet. So it is impossible to tell who is more powerful with TK. Vader has however shown more skill with it.
Originally posted by Red NemesisImpressive.
Darth Sidious is the strongest Sith Lord in the mythos, and one of the strongest Force users ever. He is the strongest. The smartest. The fastest. The best. This is an established interpretation of many sources of canon fact. We could call it a theory. (This is an opportunity to inject the formal sense of the word into daily use.) Now into this interpretation we add two facts: Vader = 80% of Darth Sidious's power, and Darth Nilhius is superior to Vader. By a lot. Some (Ivalice) want to reject the latter fact because it seems to imply that Darth Nihilus is stronger than Sidious, which wrecks our theory. A theory takes some thought though, and something that seems like it does not fit might be a cornerstone for the whole metaphorical edifice.Darth Vader's great strength is in his ability to augment his physical prowess with the power of the Force (Force Valor) and his skill with telekinesis. We have argued for pages upon pages, and it has been shown that N. is simply better than Vader. The disparity in power is rather large. If asked I will summarize my arguments, but lets use this as a given to prevent me from wandering too far off course. Our challenge, then, comes in the form of reconciling the new fact with our theory, and if this is impossible, to determine which (if either) is flawed.
My initial reaction was to discount the objection as ABC logic, which is not an acceptable comparison. Upon reflection, I found that it is a valid concern, primarily because of the nature of the comparrison. "80% of Palpatine" seems to imply that no one could ever be more than 20% better than Vader. This seems wrong. A third party should not place an upper limit on a pairing's relative power. This clearly had to be fixed.
[b]Option 1:
Compartmentalization
Going by instinct, I would argue that Sidious vs N. is one match, and Vader vs N. is another. This appears to fix the problem, but it flies in the face of Project Holocron's methodology. The goal is to find a usable standard of power. To establish a usable precedent I would have to try something else.Option 2: Qualification
I could retreat. I could concede that N is not "miles" above Vader and thus preserve the Status Quo. I don't like to lose, and I don't like to ignore feats and logic, so I kept thinking.Option 3: Fanboyism
As incredible as it seems, I contemplated putting on my fanboy hat and simply declaring Darth Nihilus superior to Palpatine. It would be less work in the short term, and it might rejuvenate the forum (which has been kinda dead.) Attention is not always a good thing, so I found a better path:Option 4: Selective Superiority (I promise this is the last one.)
Darth Nihilus is better, by far, than Vader with the skill of TK. It is likely that he surpasses him by the 20% that would ostensibly put him above Darth Sidious. (If I say much more Gideon will kill me.) By moving past the arbitrary (and probably inaccurate) numbers and looking at the characters as a whole we can dispel the dilemma. We must look at their skills, shown abilities, knowledge and capabilities. It is true that Darth Nihilus has superior TK showings than Palpatine. It is also true that Darth Sidious has a much wider and more diverse knowledge base. Darth Nihilus has shown extreme skill in one technique, but Sidious has advanced (some might say unprecedented) skill in all techniques. I don't know if we've seen any Force Lightning from N, his UBER DRAIN's utility in combat is debatable and his dubious tactical skills would prove a liability against such a smart fighter. Darth Sidious surpasses him in knowledge and skill, and after all:Sidious's greater knowledge and tactical skill will always take the victory.
...
I wrote most of this last night, and I'm getting tired, so instead of a formal conclusion I'll just summarize my position.
1. Darth Nihilus is >>> Darth Vader.
2. This might put him above Sidious, but for the fact that:
3. Palpatine has a more skillful and diverse knowledge of the force. [/B]
Most impressive.
When one is unfamiliar with the topic of discussion, there are a few options available. Some are preferable to others.
1. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page is a very good place to start your search. It contains articles on just about every character, no matter how insignificant.
If Wookieepedia doesn't have the answer:
2. http://www.Google.com Google finds whatever you need, no matter how obscure or terrible it is. Try it out sometime. You might like it.
3. If you must take part in the discussion, and you have exhausted the other options, ASK! While it will expose a (relatively minor) gap in knowledge and competency (seriously, how hard is Google?) it will purge the ignorance.
4. If the other members ignore you, or give you condescending non-answers, then Say Nothing. I know it can be difficult sometimes, but often the best course of action is to simply stay quiet. By staying mute you leave others to wonder at your ignorance, rather than confirming it.
Seriously, GOOGLE.
Darth Nihilus is one of the three Sith Lords that the Exile defeated during the course of KotOR 2: The Sith Lords. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Nihilus might have the information you need. Really, an obsessive series of playthroughs of KotOR 2 would net you the best results. (I like the game. More people should play it.)