Originally posted by AllanklesDon't think that'd help him for long. He'd be unbalanced to see his friend and mentor coming at him with Force Lightning.
😂 That would have been something to see but Anakin would have been a dangerous opponent to face in that moment, he seemed to be quite balanced unlike in his fight with Obi Wan.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Don't think that'd help him for long. He'd be unbalanced to see his friend and mentor coming at him with Force Lightning.
Surprise could easily turn to righteous anger for Anakin and if his conscience is not screaming at him he's pretty focused. Whatever the case he's not someone you want to face unprepared.
Your point?
Palpatine had been keeping an uncomfortably close eye on Anakin since the boy was nine; it's safe to say that he has, at the very least, minor knowledge of Skywalker's relative abilities. In contrast, Anakin knows next to nothing about Sidious's power in combat. Sidious is the one that a normal person wouldn't want to face unprepared. He'd make quick work of Anakin.
Originally posted by Gideon
Your point?Palpatine had been keeping an uncomfortably close eye on Anakin since the boy was nine; it's safe to say that he has, at the very least, minor knowledge of Skywalker's relative abilities. In contrast, Anakin knows next to nothing about Sidious's power in combat. Sidious is the one that a normal person wouldn't want to face unprepared. He'd make quick work of Anakin.
Palpatine would hardly have been prepared to have two (potential) apprentices alive at the end of their duel. And yes Palpatine had kept a close eye on Anakin but I doubt, he'd want to risk facing Anakin in a situation like the Invisible Hand.
Not to mention Palpatine knew Anakin's raw talent surpassed his own: in a physical altercation you don't know how that talent will manifest. Remember these are fights to death, not sparring sessions power doesn't always decide the victor because you can't predict every action your opponent will take in a fight.
The Dooku fight is a prime example, the life changing combat experiences during the clone wars (his heroics on Jabiim for example come to mind) had changed him, that together with his talent (creativity & adaptability comes into that as well) allowed him to overcome all the experience, savvy and power Dooku had acquired in his accomplished career, and he did it in no time.
I doubt Palpy would risk taking Anakin on at that juncture. Also remember Palpatine was tied to the seat with metal bands around his wrist. He's need to have been deceitful and blind side Anakin to prevail, not to mention if Dooku reacted negatively to Palpy's instructions to Anakin.... he would lose the element of surprise with force lightning or whatever.
This is totally irrelevant. The point is not whether Palpatine would have gotten up out of the chair to kill all three of them (that comment was said in jest). The point is that if he chose to do so, he would more than likely be totally successful.
What you don't seem to comprehend is that only Palpatine has knowledge of Anakin's abilities and capacity for destruction relative to combat; Anakin has no knowledge of Palpatine's abilities -- none. Add to the fact that Palpatine is vastly more powerful than Anakin when it comes to mastery of the Force, and you have a sealed deal for Sidious. And had Dooku chosen to bring his superior Force powers against Anakin, he might have won the duel.
Not that it matters, because Palpatine is considerably more powerful than Dooku himself.
Originally posted by Gideon
This is totally irrelevant. The point is not whether Palpatine would have gotten up out of the chair to kill all three of them (that comment was said in jest). The point is that if he chose to do so, he would more than likely be totally successful.What you don't seem to comprehend is that only Palpatine has knowledge of Anakin's abilities and capacity for destruction relative to combat; Anakin has no knowledge of Palpatine's abilities -- none. Add to the fact that Palpatine is vastly more powerful than Anakin when it comes to mastery of the Force, and you have a sealed deal for Sidious. And had Dooku chosen to bring his superior Force powers against Anakin, he might have won the duel.
Not that it matters, because Palpatine is considerably more powerful than Dooku himself.
Anakin had more raw power than Palpy or Dooku so I don't think it's so cut and dry. I remember in Labyrnth Dooku making comments about how infuriatingly powerful Anakin had become.
So I doubt Dooku would have tossed Anakin around especially if Anakin applied resistance. From what I gathered from the way Obi Wan matched force pushes with Anakin and even how Yoda with the upper hand got thrown back by the the feedback in his power duel with Palpy it's clear that power in on itself when matched against a force of close to or equal power is likely not going to enough to overcome your opponent.
IMO Anakin was too strong in the force to get manhandled with any kind of ease by Dooku, and among the best of the elites there seems to be a necessity to surprise the opponent in order to be successful with force attacks e.g it was obvious that Dooku caught Obi off guard with the TK attack.
As far as Palpy goes who knows, Galen Marek (though a Gary Stu) demonstrated that force users of exceptional talent can tap into reserves of force power that it takes most, years to tap, so while I'd favor Palpy, if he failed to land a direct hit or was exposed by Dooku things would get hairy for him.
What combative Force technique has Anakin done that rivals Dooku? Or for that matter Palpatine? If Palpatine had decided to turn on everyone on the Invisible hand, his speed and the surprise it would initiate would make short work of the ill-prepared and statistically less powerful Dooku and Anakin/Kenobi.
Originally posted by Allankles
Anakin had more raw power than Palpy or Dooku so I don't think it's so cut and dry. I remember in Labyrnth Dooku making comments about how infuriatingly powerful Anakin had become.
Am I to ascertain from this that Anakin's "raw power" will make a difference? Strictly speaking, from a certain perspective, Anakin was always more powerful than Palpatine or Dooku if we (as sources sometimes do) define power based on potential capability or through midichlorians. It's irrelevant; his skill lags virtual miles behind both of those Sith Lords. Consider the source you cited, Labyrinth of Evil: during the raid to capture Nute Gunray, Skywalker infiltrates the Viceroy's redoubt and attempts to use the Force to tear down a door -- he fails to do so and is visibly annoyed at his failure and promptly instructs his clones to blow up the door. Later on in that book, his scream collapses a ceiling.
The point is quite simply that Skywalker has zero control over his powers and possesses an obscenely lackluster knowledge of the Force due to his less-than-scholarly example. While he is occasionally prone to strong demonstrations of raw energy, the vast majority of his feats are simply unremarkable relative to the vast skills of Count Dooku or Darth Sidious.
As far as the statement is concerned, Dooku muses that Anakin could only have grown stronger since their previous duel on Geonosis. Which he had. But he isn't strong enough to threaten Palpatine.
So I doubt Dooku would have tossed Anakin around especially if Anakin applied resistance. From what I gathered from the way Obi Wan matched force pushes with Anakin and even how Yoda with the upper hand got thrown back by the the feedback in his power duel with Palpy it's clear that power in on itself when matched against a force of close to or equal power is likely not going to enough to overcome your opponent.
This is flawed. First, there is no indication that Skywalker is anywhere close to Count Dooku in terms of actualized ability; he certainly hasn't demonstrated examples of great Force mastery. Second, the fact that Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to counter a telekinetic assault from Anakin would suggest that the even more powerful Dooku would have had no trouble doing the same thing. Third, this suggests that the two metaphysical attacks meet head on, which is rare. Most of the time, one's opponent's defenses are either breached or they are caught off guard.
IMO Anakin was too strong in the force to get manhandled with any kind of ease by Dooku, and among the best of the elites there seems to be a necessity to surprise the opponent in order to be successful with force attacks e.g it was obvious that Dooku caught Obi off guard with the TK attack.
I loathe this line of thought. The attack was perfectly legitimate. One could argue that Anakin caught Dooku off guard by grabbing his wrists; one could argue that Mace caught Sidious off guard by kicking him in the face; one could argue that Obi-Wan caught Anakin off guard by dismembering him. Fights are won by attacks that the enemy doesn't expect and therefore cannot evade or counter. Don't go down that road, Allankles. It's a dead end.
As far as Palpy goes who knows, Galen Marek (though a Gary Stu) demonstrated that force users of exceptional talent can tap into reserves of force power that it takes most, years to tap, so while I'd favor Palpy, if he failed to land a direct hit or was exposed by Dooku things would get hairy for him.
Marek was trained in a totally different manner than Anakin. He was trained by Darth Vader, who explicitly utilized brutal methods to push Marek to the very limit; Skywalker, on the other hand, was trained by the relatively defensive and tame Jedi methods. Obi-Wan is a nonfactor; he'd likely get crushed and knocked aside in a nanosecond before Palpatine turned his attention to Dooku and Anakin; Dooku's the only "threat" Force-wise (and that's in its loosest possible sense).
Originally posted by Gideon
Am I to ascertain from this that Anakin's "raw power" will make a difference? Strictly speaking, from a certain perspective, Anakin was always more powerful than Palpatine or Dooku if we (as sources sometimes do) define power based on potential capability or through midichlorians. It's irrelevant; his skill lags virtual miles behind both of those Sith Lords.
I never argued that his force skills were up there mainly that he could tap into his enormous force reserves in desperate situations or situations where he was centred in the force.
Originally posted by Gideon
Consider the source you cited, Labyrinth of Evil: during the raid to capture Nute Gunray, Skywalker infiltrates the Viceroy's redoubt and attempts to use the Force to tear down a door -- he fails to do so and is visibly annoyed at his failure and promptly instructs his clones to blow up the door. Later on in that book, his scream collapses a ceiling.
Yes a prime example of how he doesn't seem to be able to draw on his full force reserves at will because he lacks the skill of a Master, however when he is more centred or more emotional as he was in the scene where they were cornering Dooku he is able to tap into his raw power. This reminds me of Ganner Rhyshode (sp?) in Traitor when the chips were down he was able to tap into the force in a way he'd never done before. If Palpy attacked Anakin willy nilly on the invisible hand there's no telling how Anakin's talent would manifest.
Originally posted by Gideon
The point is quite simply that Skywalker has zero control over his powers and possesses an obscenely lackluster knowledge of the Force due to his less-than-scholarly example. While he is occasionally prone to strong demonstrations of raw energy, the vast majority of his feats are simply unremarkable relative to the vast skills of Count Dooku or Darth Sidious.
He doesn't seem to be able to tap into his full power unless he has an emotional crutch; a crutch Dooku provided in their duel and one Palpatine would certainly provide by betraying him on the Invisible Hand. Even Masters can be affected by emotion in their application of the force as Luke muses years later (can't remember the novel) about Yoda's difficulty/effort in trying to lift the X-Wing and that drawing on the cosmic force is not so easy when emotions don't meet the demand of the effort required in that given moment.
Originally posted by Gideon
As far as the statement is concerned, Dooku muses that Anakin could only have grown stronger since their previous duel on Geonosis. Which he had. But he isn't strong enough to threaten Palpatine.
I agree Anakin would not normally be strong enough but the extremity of the situation could easily change that.
Originally posted by Gideon
This is flawed. First, there is no indication that Skywalker is anywhere close to Count Dooku in terms of actualized ability; he certainly hasn't demonstrated examples of great Force mastery. Second, the fact that Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to counter a telekinetic assault from Anakin would suggest that the even more powerful Dooku would have had no trouble doing the same thing. Third, this suggests that the two metaphysical attacks meet head on, which is rare. Most of the time, one's opponent's defenses are either breached or they are caught off guard.
I wasn't arguing for Obi Wan's defenses in favour of Anakin over Dooku merely pointing out how Obi Wan handle himself against TK when he was able to mount his own defense.
Originally posted by Gideon
I loathe this line of thought. The attack was perfectly legitimate. One could argue that Anakin caught Dooku off guard by grabbing his wrists; one could argue that Mace caught Sidious off guard by kicking him in the face; one could argue that Obi-Wan caught Anakin off guard by dismembering him. Fights are won by attacks that the enemy doesn't expect and therefore cannot evade or counter. Don't go down that road, Allankles. It's a dead end.
Same for me. I'm not taking anything away from Dooku, he was stronger than Obi Wan but based on what Windu said about direct TK attacks (something every Jedi is taught how to defend as younglings) it seems quite clear that Obi could have done better if he'd been able to put up his defense. He may or may not have gotten overpowered regardless, but his TK fight with Anakin showed that he was strong enough in that department to resist.
Originally posted by Gideon
Marek was trained in a totally different manner than Anakin. He was trained by Darth Vader, who explicitly utilized brutal methods to push Marek to the very limit; Skywalker, on the other hand, was trained by the relatively defensive and tame Jedi methods. Obi-Wan is a nonfactor; he'd likely get crushed and knocked aside in a nanosecond before Palpatine turned his attention to Dooku and Anakin; Dooku's the only "threat" Force-wise (and that's in its loosest possible sense).
I know Marek applied the force more aggressively than Anakin but as you said, though Anakin was not quite the offensive force monster Marek was because of his Jedi upbringing, his raw power manifested in more defensive ways. Easily handling the force attacks of Assajj Ventress (for example) with almost the same ease as Dooku.
Yes a prime example of how he doesn't seem to be able to draw on his full force reserves at will because he lacks the skill of a Master, however when he is more centred or more emotional as he was in the scene where they were cornering Dooku he is able to tap into his raw power. This reminds me of Ganner Rhyshode (sp?) in Traitor when the chips were down he was able to tap into the force in a way he'd never done before. If Palpy attacked Anakin willy nilly on the invisible hand there's no telling how Anakin's talent would manifest.
He doesn't seem to be able to tap into his full power unless he has an emotional crutch; a crutch Dooku provided in their duel and one Palpatine would certainly provide by betraying him on the Invisible Hand. Even Masters can be affected by emotion in their application of the force as Luke muses years later (can't remember the novel) about Yoda's difficulty/effort in trying to lift the X-Wing and that drawing on the cosmic force is not so easy when emotions don't meet the demand of the effort required in that given moment.
I agree Anakin would not normally be strong enough but the extremity of the situation could easily change that.
Same for me. I'm not taking anything away from Dooku, he was stronger than Obi Wan but based on what Windu said about direct TK attacks (something every Jedi is taught how to defend as younglings) it seems quite clear that Obi could have done better if he'd been able to put up his defense. He may or may not have gotten overpowered regardless, but his TK fight with Anakin showed that he was strong enough in that department to resist.
I know Marek applied the force more aggressively than Anakin but as you said, though Anakin was not quite the offensive force monster Marek was because of his Jedi upbringing, his raw power manifested in more defensive ways. Easily handling the force attacks of Assajj Ventress (for example) with almost the same ease as Dooku. [/B]
What's your point? Marek was trained for over a decade in how to bring about his raw power as an offensive onslaught. Anakin was not. Marek>Anakin.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except again, his emotional power is limited at this point, and at the very least, certainly "blockable" by experienced force users such as Dooku and Sidious.
See ROTS and the ROTS novel for reference.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, it really can't. For the last time, Dooku and Sidious are vastly superior to him in the force, so no amount of "anger" is going to magically take them down.
He took Dooku down because of his greater raw power, he had the greater reserves of power on account of his stronger connection to the force. And Anakin's practiced and focused use of "anger" is what took Dooku down, it's what allowed that raw talent to manifest.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Strong enough to resist Anakin's TK considering he had years and years of experience in the force whereas Anakin has had considerably less time, so yes, Anakin's less trained TK abilities would equal Obiwan's more seasoned abilities.
Where did I say experience wasn't a factor? Point is Anakin was stronger in the force, the difference is Obi Wan was nowhere near as prepared or poised to take Dooku's TK attack. Could he have done the same to Anakin? Maybe, but it's only a maybe at this point, Anakin would not be without his defenses.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What's your point? Marek was trained for over a decade in how to bring about his raw power as an offensive onslaught. Anakin was not. Marek>Anakin.
didn't you see my point? Anakin was trained in a more defensive application of the force, his raw power manifested in a more defensive way defeating Asajj Ventress early in the clone wars by blocking and deflecting her attacks with the same ease Dooku demonstrated.
Just because Jedi don't spam force lightning doesn't mean they are less potent, you should know that as a SW fan.
Originally posted by Gideon
See, I don't really know what you're trying to argue. If it's trying to make an argument where Anakin could defeat the Chancellor, you really don't have a leg to stand on. Palpatine would annihilate him.
I agree, Anakin has potential to become more powerful than him but he wasn't at that level in ROTS and he lost the opportunity when he nearly died at the hands of his master.
Originally posted by sweersaTechnically former master, but there's no time for semantics now--we've got a race to win! Onwards Felicity!
I agree, Anakin has potential to become more powerful than him but he wasn't at that level in ROTS and he lost the opportunity when he nearly died at the hands of his master.
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Ok here is what iv been thinking about.Were the Clone Wars FAKE? was Palpatine's Sway over the war so great that he rigged the CIS Side to fail.
or was it all just that the Clones were Better and had Better Commanders then the Sep's Battledroids and Commanders?
This is just something i'v just been thinking about so any input would be nice.
THANKS FOR READING!
Yes! Everything you see palpatine doing and saying is all part of his master scheme.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He orchestrated the war from the get-go and deliberately planned on the Clones winning. If they didn't, how was he gonna execute Order 66 with a bunch of dead Clones?
I totally agree with this, but i believe his plan started from episode 1. Qui-Gon finding anakin (a child concieve through the force), a coinsidence? i think no. though there is speculation that either Palpatine himself or his master Plagus manipulated the force to create anakin (but thats a different discussion).
Anakin becoming a powerful jedi, and befriending palpatine (wow, how convienient) lol. Palpatine pushing anakin towards arrogence, saying his a great jedi and should be a master. Then the clone wars, a convieniently dead jedi orders the creation of a clone army (and dies, of course) the jedi find out about this and take the clones to become a grand army of the republic, palpatine becomes the chancellor and therefore has control over the army indirectly.
So, palpatine's currently pulling the puppet strings on both sides, so either way he has a winning side, regardless of whether his force manipulation over the war turned out the way he expected (sort of a back up plan, ditch the republic, rule of the galaxy as a sith facist dictator [Darth Hitler]). As he's the dark lord of the sith he's obviously not gonna want jedi dancing around in his empire, so he creates an order [66], whereby on his command, the jedi are disposed of. Now, with his power of the darkside he's able to cloud the foreseeable future to the jedi (as yoda suggests).
With this, he's got a jedi holocaust at his finger tips. So he places obsticals in the way of the republic to make it look like the seperatists are the enemy, dooku, ventress, droid army, grevious etc. As the war comes to its final years/months/weeks etc, he reveals himself to anakin (a confused/arrogent jedi who's friends with: the dark lord of the sith). anakin tells the jedi, the jedi walk into a red lightsaber and die, anakin faces a moral dilema (kill or be killed).
of course, palpatine would have known at some point that the jedi would find out about his secret identity, which he uses as a stage to get the senate to agree to the idea of a galactic empire. he orders the genocide of the jedi to pose no threat, the jedi die or become recluse, palpatine eventually liquidizes the sentate, becomes grand ruler of the galaxy, and has the largest army in the known galaxy to which no one would go against him. the only thing that palpatine didnt plan (i believe) was anakins legacy. luke tipped the balance, confused vaders moral judgement, then when palpatine thought he'd got a loyal and trusting appretice that would help him turn luke to the dark side, vaders conscience came back and he redeemed himself, killing palpatine.
now, palpatine may not have seen his demise in those particular circumstances, but he obviously did see an eventual demise, because (in the extended universe) he creates clones of himself for his force ghost/presence to embody...interesting huh...