Oh hes more stuff about the upcoming battle with Daken. From what Remender says Daken isn't that much of a really big deal.
http://marvel.com/news/comicstories.8570.Making_the_List~colon~_Rick_Remender
Rick Remender: The focus ends up being Daken, the dark Wolverine character and the son of Wolverine. Daken and Frank end up in a nice brawl for a good part of this. Without giving away too much there's a couple of other fights in there that get focus, but the Daken one is the one I had the most fun with.
Rick Remender: Daken's not really expecting it. That's the ace up Frank's sleeve. They haven't fought before, but Frank is fairly familiar with Daken's techniques because he's familiar with his old man who is better at those techniques.
From what Remender has actually said Daken isn't really going to do that much. So maybe Daken isnt going to dismember him.
Another thing...is it me but do those look like trainers? Punisher doesnt wear trainers. In fact thats not Punishers footwear. I have a feeling Rememenders trying to trick us. Maybe Frank Castle is actually making monsters...
Originally posted by Kazenji
So Norman Osborn was changed to Norman Osborn??how is that a friggan change.
I dont know I kinda see GG and Norman Osborn as the same person like Banner and Hulk are said to be the same.
http://marvel.com/universe/Green_Goblin_(Norman_Osborn)
Real Name
Norman Osborn
edit: I guess saying GG is the same person as Osborn maybe going too far but hes defintely a part of Osborn. If Bruce Bannevr never turned into the Hulk that would be a drastic change. Lets not forget hes now a major political figure and is Iron Patriot. Eventhough Osborn has been a villain in the past hes now trying to be a superhero.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneNot sure what change you meant with Blade, but as far as Osborn goes, that's a change in tactics. That's not a physical change nor character change. Osborn is suppressing the Goblin while he goes on with his plans. He is still the same Norman Osborn, except he's got a new TEMPORARY alter-ego as the Iron Patriot. Bullseye is still Bullseye, despite the Hawkeye costume, Daken is no Wolverine, Moonstone is not Ms. Marvel.
I dont know I kinda see GG and Norman Osborn as the same person like Banner and Hulk are said to be the same.http://marvel.com/universe/Green_Goblin_(Norman_Osborn)
Real Name
Norman Osbornedit: I guess saying GG is the same person as Osborn maybe going too far but hes defintely a part of Osborn. If Bruce Bannevr never turned into the Hulk that would be a drastic change. Lets not forget hes now a major political figure and is Iron Patriot. Eventhough Osborn has been a villain in the past hes now trying to be a superhero.
Mac Gargan has been a shitty Venom for a while now. Though he's not immensely popular, that change hurt the character. I don't mind change, as long as it is entertaining and makes sense. Seriously, who doesn't want Gargan back as the Scorpion and Brock as Venom?
Point is, killing or mutilating Frank and then recreating him as a zombie or cyborg is a permanent change, one that would require a huge retcon to correct. Osborn and the Dark Avengers only have to don their old threads and everything's back to normal.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Not sure what change you meant with Blade, but as far as Osborn goes, that's a change in tactics. That's not a physical change nor character change. Osborn is suppressing the Goblin while he goes on with his plans. He is still the same Norman Osborn, except he's got a new TEMPORARY alter-ego as the Iron Patriot.
If he doesnt change into the GG then thats a physical change because the GG is part of his persona and he shapehsifts into him. Hell if Bruce never changed into the Hulk you dont think that wouldnt be a major change? Maybe you dont want to define it as physical but its still major.
I really dont even understand how thats not a character change. His behaviour is part of his character isn't it? So hes behaving differently and thats not a character change?
Yes Norman Osborn is different hes actually trying to be a superhero while before he was a villain.
What about Barabara Gordon shes in wheelchair and hacks computers? If being in a wheelchair isnt a physical change I dont know what is.
Originally posted by Eternal IdolPoint is, killing or mutilating Frank and then recreating him as a zombie or cyborg is a permanent change, one that would require a huge retcon to correct. Osborn and the Dark Avengers only have to don their old threads and everything's back to normal.
Well for starters you dont even know wether its permanent. Everything isnt back to normal because Osborn isnt the GG and is actually trying to do good as opposed to evil, which is not what he used to do orginally.
Originally posted by Warrior18
Trust me it is. No way in hell Marvel would do something so silly.
PUNISHER #11Written by RICK REMENDER
Penciled by TONY MOORE
Cover by DAVE WILKINS
“FRANKEN-CASTLE” PART 1
In the belly of New York, skulking and forgotten creatures of the night uncover the remains of a man in a familiar outfit. Frank Castle is dead. What exactly IS Frankencastle? Long time collaborators Rick Remender and Tony Moore (GHOST RIDER, Fear Agent, The Walking Dead) are reunited for what will be the greatest struggle in the afterlife of the Punisher. Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster...
32 PGS./Parental Advisory ...$2.99
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
If he doesnt change into the GG then thats a physical change because the GG is part of his persona and he shapehsifts into him. Hell if Bruce never changed into the Hulk you dont think that wouldnt be a major change? Maybe you dont want to define it as physical but its still major.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I really dont even understand how thats not a character change. His behaviour is part of his character isn't it? So hes behaving differently and thats not a character change?Yes Norman Osborn is different hes actually trying to be a superhero while before he was a villain.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What about Barabara Gordon shes in wheelchair and hacks computers? If being in a wheelchair isnt a physical change I dont know what is.
That's completely different than being zombified or kept alive by cybernetics. Like I said, I would rather Marvel have the Punisher killed in a blaze of glory while saving the day than to reinvent the formula that makes the character great.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well for starters you dont even know wether its permanent. Everything isnt back to normal because Osborn isnt the GG and is actually trying to do good as opposed to evil, which is not what he used to do orginally.
It won't be permanent. It's one of Osborn's schemes; it'll run its course, then some heroes will pull the plug on it. Norman Osborn doesn't have to be dressed as the Green Goblin to be the Green Goblin. The two are inseparable, because the Goblin is one of Osborn's personalities. He's not trying to do good for the sake of doing good. He's making it seem like he's doing good things along with HAMMER and the "Avengers", but it's all just a front for his real motives.
Still don't see how Osborn's developments are in any way comparable to the idea of this Cybernetic Zombie Punisher shit Marvel is advertising.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
That comparison with Banner's transformation into the Hulk makes no sense. Osborn does not become the Green Goblin through a physical change. He doesn't shapeshift into the Green Goblin (unless it's been retconned lately); he wears the Green Goblin costume. That's not a physical change. The Goblin persona is still in his psyche.
Yeah its a physical change he gains superhuman strength speed and a HF. However I was incorrect about him actually turning green and growing pointy ears. Depowerign someone is major change and its physical as well. A comparison to the Hulk would be incorrect but taking away Spidermans powers would be a drastic change.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
It's a front. Norman is still evil and batshit crazy, but is keeping it underwraps while he amasses power and influence.
I dont know about that I got the impression from interviews that Osborn wasnt evil hes just a basterd.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
I don't care much for the Batfamily, but I'm sure that change pissed off a lot of fans at first, but eventually came around. She was crippled for years. That was a reasonable change, and DC stuck with it for a long time.
Well its reasonable to you and thats fine its still a drastic change.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
That's completely different than being zombified or kept alive by cybernetics. Like I said, I would rather Marvel have the Punisher killed in a blaze of glory while saving the day than to reinvent the formula that makes the character great.
Bruv the fact that its completely different to an extent is neither here nor there. The discussion is wether its a good thing to drastically change characters. Putting BG is a wheelchair and making her a computer hacker is major change. Are we narrowing down the meaning of drastic change to turning into something? If were talking about drastic change in general that could be anything.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
It won't be permanent. It's one of Osborn's schemes; it'll run its course, then some heroes will pull the plug on it. Norman Osborn doesn't have to be dressed as the Green Goblin to be the Green Goblin. The two are inseparable, because the Goblin is one of Osborn's personalities. He's not trying to do good for the sake of doing good. He's making it seem like he's doing good things along with HAMMER and the "Avengers", but it's all just a front for his real motives.
and you dont know wether Punisher turning into a zombie will be permanent either. However him being in charge may not be permanent but it looks like him being Norman Osborn is.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Still don't see how Osborn's developments are in any way comparable to the idea of this Cybernetic Zombie Punisher shit Marvel is advertising.
Were talking about drastic change it doesnt have to be the samething as long as its drastic.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah its a physical change he gains superhuman strength speed and a HF. However I was incorrect about him actually turning green and growing pointy ears. Depowerign someone is major change and its physical as well. A comparison to the Hulk would be incorrect but taking away Spidermans powers would be a drastic change.
It's been over 30 years since the Punisher's first appearance, and Castle is still going strong as one of Marvel's most popular characters. Some of the recent story arcs I've read rank up there with his old stuff. Maybe even better. He's a normal human being, but he's a tough son-of-a-***** and far from powerless... and now Marvel is going to dick that up?
You seriously don't think that if Marvel goes through with this, they'll limit him to simple prosthetics? Most of their cyborgs are at least Class 10. Wouldn't be surprised if they gave cyborg Castle a weapons system reminiscent of War Machine. Changes like that are too drastic, and are borderline retarded this far into Castle's run as the Punisher.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I dont know about that I got the impression from interviews that Osborn wasnt evil hes just a basterd.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Bruv the fact that its completely different to an extent is neither here nor there. The discussion is wether its a good thing to drastically change characters. Putting BG is a wheelchair and making her a computer hacker is major change. Are we narrowing down the meaning of drastic change to turning into something? If were talking about drastic change in general that could be anything.
Zombie Punisher has absolutely nothing to add to the character. Cyborg Punisher would be a slightly better choice if he's limited to prostetics, but still rather pointless.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and you dont know wether Punisher turning into a zombie will be permanent either. However him being in charge may not be permanent but it looks like him being Norman Osborn is.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Were talking about drastic change it doesnt have to be the samething as long as its drastic.
Reinventing Castle as something other than what he already is would be a drastic change, but one for the worse.
Review Punisher #8 looks he outsmarts the Avengers.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Osborn gained his powers the moment he became the Green Goblin. It wasn't some random change 30 years after his first appearance.It's been over 30 years since the Punisher's first appearance, and Castle is still going strong as one of Marvel's most popular characters. Some of the recent story arcs I've read rank up there with his old stuff. Maybe even better. He's a normal human being, but he's a tough son-of-a-***** and far from powerless... and now Marvel is going to dick that up?
Norman Osborn used to be GG for about 30 years and now hes not. Its a similar sort of thing except Punisher maybe turning into something and Osborn isnt.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
You seriously don't think that if Marvel goes through with this, they'll limit him to simple prosthetics? Most of their cyborgs are at least Class 10. Wouldn't be surprised if they gave cyborg Castle a weapons system reminiscent of War Machine. Changes like that are too drastic, and are borderline retarded this far into Castle's run as the Punisher.
You wanna wait and see what happens? You thinking its retarded doesnt make it so, you were even complaining about the hi-tech weapons despite it being logical for him to use.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Forget the interviews and re-read his appearances in Spider-Man, Thunderbolts, Dark Avengers, and recently in Fantastic Four. The guy is a warped evil bastard.
Er no because the writers can point out things that readers can miss their opinion is valid. Furthermore he can be considered to be crazy, crazy isnt evil especially when you've acknowledged it and are trying to do something about it. Im not sure about those other issues but in Dark Avenges hes come off as ruthless basterd but not evil.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Barbara Gordon crippled was a drastic change to her career as Batgirl, but not to her. I think it made for some great character development. She obviously couldn't go out and kick ass as Batgirl anymore, so being the smart and resourceful girl she is, she became a computer hacker. She was crippled for years, and was eventually cured of her paralysis. It made perfect sense.
Bruv were talking about drastic change that was drastic change. So in otther words if its written well it can be a good thing.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Zombie Punisher has absolutely nothing to add to the character. Cyborg Punisher would be a slightly better choice if he's limited to prostetics, but still rather pointless.
Thats your opinion and thats all it is.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
If they go through with it, it definitely won't be permanent because many long-time fans will tune out. They'll either have to correct it ala retcon or deus ex machina magic (because trying to explain it any other way would be incredibly stupid), which makes going through with it that much more pointless.I think in the case of cyborg/zombie Punisher, drastic translates into pointless and retarded. Like I said, I wouldn't mind a drastic change like Castle dying, but only if it meant something and if they wouldn't f*ck that up by bringing him back to life. Even a drastic change such as Castle developing a morality crisis could be good if done right and true to the character's history.
Reinventing Castle as something other than what he already is would be a drastic change, but one for the worse.
I actually dont want to see him as a zombie but im open-minded enough to see how it goes. However you havent really brought any logical arguments as to why its wrong or retarded. It seems to me that really just complain about any change concerning the Punisher and was even cringing when he used a Skrull rifle.
You're also talking about the characters history but you were complaining about him using hi-tech weapons. In fact if you look at Punishers history its logical for him to use anything to get the job done. So you talk about the Punisher character but dont seem to understand it in-depth.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
anyone see punisher apearances in newest DP, he took out the wrecking crew.deadpool had the funniest line 'G Punisher pee on them you know you want to"
LOL I just saw a preview of Punisher in that issue.....I cracked up....
I think the thing is with SK is that its supposed to be funny as well, thats probably why Punisher looked like such a dork. 😂
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Norman Osborn used to be GG for about 30 years and now hes not. Its a similar sort of thing except Punisher maybe turning into something and Osborn isnt.
In any case, Osborn not wearing his trademark costume for a while is in no way comparable to maiming the Punisher and recreating him as a cyborg or killing him and reanimating his corpse.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You wanna wait and see what happens? You thinking its retarded doesnt make it so, you were even complaining about the hi-tech weapons despite it being logical for him to use.
Having the Punisher using other character's trademark weapons MORE than his own conventional weapons makes Castle look weaker, in my opinion. For decades, Captain America has had only his shield; Daredevil, his billy clubs; the Punisher had his guns. These guys are the closest thing to ordinary people amongst Marvel's most popular characters. Their expertise with these weapons, coupled with their extraordinary abilities to plan ahead, think on their feet, and kick ass have allowed them to overcome seemingly impossible odds. That's what makes them great.
In any case, the mechanization/zombification of the Punisher hasn't actually happened, and those previews might just be red herring teasers, so it's not really worth arguing further after this post.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er no because the writers can point out things that readers can miss their opinion is valid. Furthermore he can be considered to be crazy, crazy isnt evil especially when you've acknowledged it and are trying to do something about it. Im not sure about those other issues but in Dark Avenges hes come off as ruthless basterd but not evil.
ruth⋅less [rooth-lis]
–adjective
without pity or compassion; cruel; merciless: a ruthless tyrant.
Synonyms:
unrelenting, adamant, relentless. See CRUEL.
One writer's take on the character does not override 40+ years of appearances, which prove that Norman Osborn is both evil and crazy, even if his ego won't let him admit to it.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Bruv were talking about drastic change that was drastic change. So in otther words if its written well it can be a good thing.Thats your opinion and thats all it is.
I actually dont want to see him as a zombie but im open-minded enough to see how it goes. However you havent really brought any logical arguments as to why its wrong or retarded.
Crippling Barbara Gordon ENDED her career as a crimefighter on the frontlines for years. It was handled very well, because it had an impact on her for years and it allowed for character development since the focus was more on Barbara than her Batgirl alter-ego. It actually accomplished something.
The same can't be done for Frank Castle, whose sole purpose IN LIFE is to be the Punisher and kill everyone who falls into his criteria for scumbags. The only thing that would come out of turning Castle into a zombie or a cyborg would be some kind of upgrade, and that's really not anything the character needs. He's been able to kick that much ass without powers and without having to resort to Reed Richards/Doom-level tech. KEY POINT: An upgrade will take away from that dynamic, especially since he's actually one-of-a-kind in Marvel. The last thing they need is another undead vigilante or a hell-bent-for- revenge cyborg.
Besides, Marvel's already tried recreating the Punisher as an undead hero, and the title failed miserably. Zombifying or mechanizing Castle is inherently a permanent change, because the damage would be done. That's something they can't just do away with if they change their minds unless they make a huge retcon/deus ex machina plot device... which would make the change pointless in the first place.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
It seems to me that really just complain about any change concerning the Punisher and was even cringing when he used a Skrull rifle.You're also talking about the characters history but you were complaining about him using hi-tech weapons. In fact if you look at Punishers history its logical for him to use anything to get the job done. So you talk about the Punisher character but dont seem to understand it in-depth.
I've already explained my point about high-tech weapons becoming the norm. The Skrull rifle in itself wasn't so bad. I got riled up at the thought of the Punisher having ready access to all sorts of alien tech... which I wouldn't mind, so long as they didn't replace his standard arsenal of handguns, explosives, and rifles FROM EARTH. In short, I don't want the Punisher turning into Marvel's version of Buck Rogers.
I understand the Punisher's character just fine, though I'm not sure if you do. If you look at the Punisher's history, he uses conventional weaponry, hand-to-hand combat, and his surroundings to get the job done more often than not. He was a soldier, still thinks and acts like a soldier, and conventional weapons are his MO. He's only used tech weapons on a few occasions (not including his latest arcs), and most of the time, they've been a part of his battle van. If the Punisher truly would have used any means to carry out his personal vendetta, he wouldn't be above hitting up people like the Power Broker for strength/durability boosts, or stealing tech weapons and suits of armor and using them ALL THE TIME instead of occasionally when they're conveniently available.... but he doesn't.
So, you talk about (and wank) the Punisher, but you seem to only want these changes to mold him into what you'd like him to be, and to improve his chances in the Versus Forum.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
I understand the Punisher's character just fine, though I'm not sure if you do. If you look at the Punisher's history, he uses conventional weaponry, hand-to-hand combat, and his surroundings to get the job done more often than not. He was a soldier, still thinks and acts like a soldier, and conventional weapons are his MO. He's only used tech weapons on a few occasions (not including his latest arcs), and most of the time, they've been a part of his battle van. If the Punisher truly would have used any means to carry out his personal vendetta, he wouldn't be above hitting up people like the Power Broker for strength/durability boosts, or stealing tech weapons and suits of armor and using them ALL THE TIME instead of occasionally when they're conveniently available.... but he doesn't.
No serioulsy you dont. As I explained to you already in the past he wasnt hunting meta-humans now he does. In the past hes occasionaly met superhumans but now hes focusing on them.
In the past he didnt need to, now he does....thats why in the past he hasnt used hi-tech weapons but when he needed to he has. Your the one who stated that he couldnt even beat Wolverine with 2hrs prep and hi-tech weapons. So wait hes fighting a person who according to Remender is a dangerous as Wolverine a guy thats fought Thor and a guy whos fought Captain Marvel. The guy cant even beat Wolverine with 2hrs prep with hi-tech weapons but its not practical for him to carry that shit all the time eventhough it would save his life.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
So, you talk about (and wank) the Punisher, but you seem to only want these changes to mold him into what you'd like him to be, and to improve his chances in the Versus Forum.
LOL werent you paying attention when I said I prefered him not to be a zombie/cyborg?
