ROTS Sidious vs ROTJ Vader and Luke

Location where Vader and Luke fought.

Vader stated that Luke skills were completed. Luke was able to defeat Vader in saber combat who is 80% of ROTJ Sidious a more powerful version of Sidious. Luke also was able to take Sidious force lighting long enough for Vader to betray Sidious.

I say Luke and Vader takes this.

I'll second that. However one point, I hear so often Vader is 80% of Sidious ect ect, but thats his potential force power or realized force power it dosn't mean he inherently wins the fight based on that.

But I do think Luke + Vader would have it, although Vader would most likely get gravely wounded if not killed

Originally posted by Kotor3
Location where Vader and Luke fought.

Vader stated that Luke skills were completed. Luke was able to defeat Vader in saber combat who is 80% of ROTJ Sidious a more powerful version of Sidious. Luke also was able to take Sidious force lighting long enough for Vader to betray Sidious.

I say Luke and Vader takes this.

Wrong, Luke was able to defeat Vader in saber combat by using his anger (which he did in the first half of the duel as well) Vader did not want to kill Luke. The reason that Luke was able to take a lot of Sidious's force lightning is because Sidious wanted Luke to suffer before death since he rejected the dark side.

Just because Vader says doesn't make it true, Luke had barely any training, his skill were not complete.

Sidious takes them both due to his superior...well everything.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Wrong, Luke was able to defeat Vader in saber combat by using his anger (which he did in the first half of the duel as well) Vader did not want to kill Luke.

Whereas I respect your opinion Elite I do not agree with your assessment on this one. The fact that Luke used his anger is irrelevant to the fact that he was able to defeat Vader. Dooku you can say did the same thing with Anakin that Vader did with Luke. He drew out Luke’s anger and once it was brought out Vader could not withstand the onslaught. Nowhere that I know of especially not the movie does it show Vader holding back.

Further, not having your heart into a battle is not the same as an unwillingness to kill. Vader twice mention to Luke that he would kill him if that was his destiny. He also went to strike Luke down when Luke disable his saber. Vader also threw his saber directly at Luke in an effort to kill him. Vader was willing to kill Luke. You seem to forget that Luke was trying to bring Vader back to the light side and it was never his intention to kill Vader. That also shows what Luke did as extraordinary.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

The reason that Luke was able to take a lot of Sidious's force lightning is because Sidious wanted Luke to suffer before death since he rejected the dark side.

That is true, nonetheless when Sidious was ready to kill Luke he say to Luke “now young Skywalker you die” and did not hold back on Luke. Yet Luke was able to withstand long enough for Vader to betray Sidious.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

Just because Vader says doesn't make it true, Luke had barely any training, his skill were not complete.

This is purely your opinion. Vader was once a master Jedi and now a Sith Lord. Why wouldn’t he know? Plus Luke showed he was ready by making his own lightsaber. Elite we know the statement did not mean that Luke did not need anymore training but that he was prime and at least ready to come before the emperor and battle Vader.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

Sidious takes them both due to his superior...well everything.

I was not convince by your argument there Elite. I still disagree.

That's terrible logic. Dooku's rage wasn't the reason he defeated Obi-Wan and Anakin on Geonosis; his superior swordsmanship was. On the other hand, it is documented via novelization, dialogue, or screenplay that Luke's victory over Vader wasn't through superior skill or talent but by capitalizing on the advantages provided by aggressive feelings. It's really simple. Likewise, Sidious was visibly not trying to murder Skywalker on-screen. He was torturing him and, yes, death would have been the end result.

Sidious is far more powerful, faster, and more experienced in swordsmanship and Force mastery than either of his opponents. He takes this.

Originally posted by Gideon
That's terrible logic. Dooku's rage wasn't the reason he defeated Obi-Wan and Anakin on Geonosis; his superior swordsmanship was.

Gideon I am confused by your statement above. Who stated that because I did not?

Originally posted by Gideon
On the other hand, it is documented via novelization, dialogue, or screenplay that Luke's victory over Vader wasn't through superior skill or talent but by capitalizing on the advantages provided by aggressive feelings. It's really simple.

No one disagrees with fact that Luke defeated Vader using his aggressive feelings. The same way Anakin defeated Dooku. The point is Luke won.

Originally posted by Gideon
Likewise, Sidious was visibly not trying to murder Skywalker on-screen. He was torturing him and, yes, death would have been the end result.

I already agreed that initially Sidious was torturing Luke. I also provided the quote by Sidious which shows that Sidious was now ready to kill Skywalker and had finish with the torture.

Originally posted by Gideon
Sidious is far more powerful, faster, and more experienced in swordsmanship and Force mastery than either of his opponents. He takes this.

The most skilled, powerful, and experienced do not always win. Yes it gives a great advantage but does not produce an automatic win for Sidious.

Originally posted by Gideon
That's terrible logic. Dooku's rage wasn't the reason he defeated Obi-Wan and Anakin on Geonosis; his superior swordsmanship was.

Sidious is far more powerful, faster, and more experienced in swordsmanship and Force mastery than either of his opponents. He takes this.

Originally posted by Kotor3
No one disagrees with fact that Luke defeated Vader using his aggressive feelings. The same way Anakin defeated Dooku. The point is Luke won.

Originally posted by Kotor3
The most skilled, powerful, and experienced do not always win. Yes it gives a great advantage but does not produce an automatic win for Sidious.

...

Are you kidding me? "Teh most powrful du note alwayz win." Well let me be the first to thank you for letting loose this nugget of information. You'd think I would have gotten that from the numerous battles throughout the saga -- from the lightsaber duels to the whole tiny-rebellion-versus-Galactic-Empire civil war that engulfs the plot. I guess it must have slipped into some neurological wormhole present within the very fabric of my brain.

Now, as a token of my appreciation, I'll share a nugget of knowledge with you. Welcome to the Star Wars Versus Forum. Here, the combat mentioned in the threads here are purely hypothetical, with various settings and circumstances. In order to account for all of them, we go by simple logic: we argue whomever is more powerful and/or more skilled, and traditionally, that person wins. Exceptions are made in cases such as Mace Windu, who, say, is not more powerful than the likes of Darth Sidious, but due to special circumstances and attributes (Vaapad and the shatterpoint charism) is able to compensate for his inferiority.

In this thread, we have two combatants who aren't a productive or time-tested theme. One of them is a relatively untrained neophyte who is only remotely effective against a powerful adversary when he is a.) possessed by the spirit of a dead mentor, b.) filled with an overpowering aggressive emotion, or c.) the opponent is restraining himself. The second is a mighty Sith Lord who possesses a glaring physical and psychological vulnerability against the third combatant, a being who is far more powerful, far more experienced, far more skilled, and far smarter than either of the first two combatants. Simple logic: on the average day, he'd win.

Sidious > Vader and Luke. He wins this match. Your argument blows.

Not that I disagree, but Vader's by all available evidence the far superior technical swordsman. He's directly stated to employ individual elements from all forms of combat in his very own custom fighting style, and as such is arguably the most versatile and complete swordsman in the mythos.

Also, and not to be nitpicky or anything, but is there a particular reason you repeatedly [and incorrectly] refer to Mace's Shatterpoint ability as a "charism?" Because it's not God-Given, and neither is it unique to Mr Windu.

But its is something of an influence on what's going on around him, and the God-given characteristic is an analogy considering the rarity of and god-like nature of the ability.

Originally posted by Darth Luna
Not that I disagree, but Vader's by all available evidence the far superior technical swordsman. He's directly stated to employ individual elements from all forms of combat in his very own custom fighting style, and as such is arguably the most versatile and complete swordsman in the mythos.

When one feels inclined to nitpick, one should feel obligated to at least be right. A 'charism' (to quote the dictionary) can be defined as one of three things:

1. Theology. A divinely conferred gift or power.
2. a spiritual power or personal quality that gives an individual influence or authority over large numbers of people.
3. the special virtue of an office, function, position, etc., that confers or is thought to confer on the person holding it an unusual ability for leadership, worthiness of veneration, or the like.

The shatterpoint charism can be identified as either of the first two definitions. Nowhere is it stated to be something exclusive to one person.

By the way, not to be nitpicky or anything, but is there a particular reason why you repeatedly (and illegally) double post? Or why you capitalize the 'S' in shatterpoint? If you're referring to the novel, italicize it. And, lastly, there is a period at the end of 'Mr.' It is an abbreviation.

Edit: 'Charism' is also defined as a miraculously given power. Nowhere is Jehova or God Almighty or however else you want to style Him mentioned.

QUOTE=11486508]Originally posted by Gideon
...Are you kidding me? "Teh most powrful du note alwayz win." [/QUOTE]

That is such a ridiculous untrue statement and it pretty much sums up your argument. I am not surprise since in a previous thread you stated that DE Sidious would take out four of the top Jedi in the PT era. There are two many examples to prove that statement wrong.

Originally posted by Kotor3
[QUOTE=11486508]Originally posted by Gideon
[B]...Are you kidding me? "Teh most powrful du note alwayz win."

That is such a ridiculous untrue statement and it pretty much sums up your argument. I am not surprise since in a previous thread you stated that DE Sidious would take out four of the top Jedi in the PT era. There are two many examples to prove that statement wrong. [/B][/QUOTE]

Right. Did you even read the rest of the post? The rest of the thread? Your argument has no merit to it. None. Zilch. Zero. You lose.

I still maintain Luke and Vader would overcome sidious, I do not believe you can compare ROTJ Sidious to ROTS Sidious in terms of power, his body has been getting owned by he dark side for some time. Again, I think Vader would likely be grievously wounded, but together I seriously doubt Sidious could take them both on in a ROTJ context.

Some points,

Sidiou swas deifnitley torturing luke that was very obvious

Howev, in the book (I believe?) Luke was able to somewhat block or minimize the effects of the lightening with his hands initially, something only Yoda has ever done (i could be wrong this is what I recall however) this alone should point obviously to how epic Luke is. Also Luke was holding back against Vader for almost the whole duel and Vader was not holding back against Luke after he got knocked down the stairs (then Vader got pissed) Vader wanted a strong Luke, but not stronger than him (at least not obviously).

Vader could even attempt to choke (and he is the established choker master) to distract Sidious from his lightening to protect himself-while Sidious certainly would protect himself these precious moments at the very least would enable Luke to seriously injure Sidious off the bat. From there I believe it would be a natural progression.

Honestly I don't know you can rep for Sidious in this situation. Not ROTJ Sidious, his powers aren't so physical at that point.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He won through aggression, but your assuming the exact same thing will happen again.

There is no reason to believe that Luke would not use aggression against Sidious.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Not always, but usually. Again, don't assume that just because it lies within the realm of the possible that the least likely thing is what will happen. Using "maybes" and "perhaps" doesn't work. In an unadulterated combat scenario, Sidious will win.

That is the point Lucien, not always and the usually applies to one on one situations in which this is not one of them. The point of my argument was to show that Luke would be enough of a factor for Vader and him to defeat Sidious. If Luke is not a factor then the fight would most likely go to Sidious.

Sidious, like Yoda or any other Force user who is physically weak, can compensate for his deficits with the Force. And he had only grown even more powerful in his two decades of ruling the galaxy.

Again, Sidious wins.

Originally posted by Gideon
When one feels inclined to nitpick, one should feel obligated to at least be right. A 'charism' (to quote the dictionary) can be defined as one of three things:

Don't you mean to say "a" dictionary? There is not one universally correct dictionary, and as such the use of the definite article "the" was completely misplaced.

1. Theology. A divinely conferred gift or power.

Divine. Emanating from God. While that's just one definition, it's the most appropriate one, and none of the others listed from the many dictionaries of the World would relate to Mr Windu's Force given power.

2. a spiritual power or personal quality that gives an individual influence or authority over large numbers of people.

Last time I checked, it wasn't Mr Windu's Shatterpoint ability that granted him such influence and authority.

3. the special virtue of an office, function, position, etc., that confers or is thought to confer on the person holding it an unusual ability for leadership, worthiness of veneration, or the like.

Entirely irrelevant, as you yourself note.

The shatterpoint charism can be identified as either of the first two definitions. Nowhere is it stated to be something exclusive to one person.

Which is exactly what I'd expect to hear from someone who apparently believes Google Definition to be the only existing dictionary. There are multiple definitions that describe it as a unique ability.

By the way, not to be nitpicky or anything, but is there a particular reason why you repeatedly (and illegally) double post?

Because, as ever, I am the biggest gangstar on the intrawebs. By the way, is there a particular reason you chose to use the word "illegally" in a situation of such a trivial nature? If it was an attempt to appear clever, you failed miserably.

Or why you capitalize the 'S' in shatterpoint? If you're referring to the novel, italicize it.

Yes, I was referring to the novel, which is why I labelled it an "ability." And as Mr Windu notes in Shatterpoint, "Shatterpoint" is the name he personally gives his ability. Not a universally recognised word, but the name he personally gives it. As a name, it would be grammatically incorrect to not capitalise the "S." Really, basic stuff.

And, lastly, there is a period at the end of 'Mr.' It is an abbreviation.

An abbreviation universally recognised that the period is quite unnecessary and not at all required from a grammatical point of view.

Edit: 'Charism' is also defined as a miraculously given power.

Which Mr Windu's Shatterpoint ability clearly isn't. It's something he naturally receives through his connection to the Force granted by the midi-chlorians in his blood.

Nowhere is Jehova or God Almighty or however else you want to style Him mentioned.

Except through the words "theology," "divinely," and "spiritually." Perhaps you should have inputted those words in your little wiktionary.