'Not on' what, if I may be so bold as to ask? It is generally not considered good form to end a sentence with a preposition. You might want to watch out for that. (That is something for which you might want to watch out.)
Besides. I wasn't 'misquoting' your responses, I was responding to some socially crippled idiot named 'BOOG II.' He was really pretty dumb.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ROTS Sidious vs ROTJ Vader and Luke
Originally posted by Publius II
You're definitely going to get banned again at this rate. Calm down.And the novelization supports the idea that Luke, in his "moment of dark clarity," was indeed overpowering and "humiliat[ing]" Vader in their duel. That said - this is for you, kotor3 - Vader was not doing everything he could to kill his son. That doesn't necessarily mean that he was throwing the fight, but had he brought his vastly superior power in the Force to bear with the intent to kill he would have crushed Luke. It's almost an exact parallel to Vader's own duel with Count Dooku in RotS; the older combatant should have won through use of his Force abilities, but ended up being overpowered when the younger combatant with greater reserves of power surrendered to his rage.
Alright faunus, i just better control myself when i argue with people that are stubborn.
But its weird that luke was able to overpower vader at one point with his rage while galen couldn't and had to achieve a state of clarity to whoop vader/
Sidious dosn't win,
Gideon you haven't made much of an argument. I would say Sidious' powers did not get any more considerable from ROTS to ROTJ and while force users can compensate for physical lackings using the force, this is very draining.
Therefore Sidious would have to first of all
1) heavily compensate for his physical deterioration, he is very corrutped at this point, and would have to cross blades with Luke Skywalker, and also
2) stop Vader's force grip, which is a very powerful technique for the V man.
For arguments sake Palpatine manages to do this, he successfully defends against Luke and shields himself from choke. He still has to kill Luke with a saber since he has engaged him, and Vader and Luke are both Form V, odds are Vader runs in with Form V and starts trampling the shit out of Palpatine while Palpatine fights with Luke.
Palpatine contest them both? both these duelists simultaniously? I think not.
Originally posted by DarkSideisMethDo you have proof that Palpatine's age and appearance has hindered his physical prowess? And do you truly believe that Vader's TK and Luke's 3 weeks of training are gonna stand up against him? A Force grip is the single most deadly TK move... one can use against Admiral Motti. Use it against the your master and most powerful Dark Lord (the same guy who trained you to accommodate for your electrical hazard of a body), is a different story.
Sidious dosn't win,Gideon you haven't made much of an argument. I would say Sidious' powers did not get any more considerable from ROTS to ROTJ and while force users can compensate for physical lackings using the force, this is very draining.
Therefore Sidious would have to first of all
1) heavily compensate for his physical deterioration, he is very corrutped at this point, and would have to cross blades with Luke Skywalker, and also
2) stop Vader's force grip, which is a very powerful technique for the V man.
For arguments sake Palpatine manages to do this, he successfully defends against Luke and shields himself from choke. He still has to kill Luke with a saber since he has engaged him, and Vader and Luke are both Form V, odds are Vader runs in with Form V and starts trampling the shit out of Palpatine while Palpatine fights with Luke.
Palpatine contest them both? both these duelists simultaniously? I think not.
The man took on the most celebrated and talented swordsmen the Order ever produced, and you think a kid who swings his saber around like it's a baseball bat is gonna be a problem to him? And with free reign over the entire galaxy, the Emperor's gonna have leave to go and learn from any well of knowledge he so chooses.
#1 it was self evident about Sidious' weaker physical state, but I believe it was also mentioned, and was discussed recently in a thread. Yes his body was thoroughly corrupted by the dark side and weaker, it is a sympton of his deep immersion and is valid. Also Luke Skywalker has the unrealized potential of his father, and holds a multitude of achievements as a testament to this fact even in ROTJ, his few weeks of training irregardless. Vader also honed his skills continually (that we have proof of in novels) during this interlude, we do not have the same evidence Sidious did, or felt the need to.
Obviously he took on Windu, and yes the sky is blue. But his past achievements do not translate from ROTS Sid to ROTJ Sid in terms of physical prowess.
Originally posted by DarkSideisMethPoint the way.
#1 it was self evident about Sidious' weaker physical state, but I believe it was also mentioned, and was discussed recently in a thread.
Originally posted by DarkSideisMeth"I'll gladly pay you Tuesday..." What he might become means nothing here.
Yes his body was thoroughly corrupted by the dark side and weaker, it is a sympton of his deep immersion and is valid. Also Luke Skywalker has the unrealized potential of his father, and holds a multitude of achievements as a testament to this fact even in ROTJ, his few weeks of training irregardless.
Originally posted by DarkSideisMethAnd yet we still know that Vader was only 80%.
Vader also honed his skills continually (that we have proof of in novels) during this interlude, we do not have the same evidence Sidious did, or felt the need to.
Originally posted by DarkSideisMethAnd so thus, his immensely more accomplished Force prowess falls by the wayside.
Obviously he took on Windu, and yes the sky is blue. But his past achievements do not translate from ROTS Sid to ROTJ Sid in terms of physical prowess.
Haha if you don't know that sidious was weaker in ROTJ physically than ROTS I can only shake my head. Pretty sure lucas dosn't need to outline the obious points in crayon.
And I was arguing, if you actually read what I said, about Luke's achievements up to that point that demonstrate his unrealized potential. That isn't about what he may become, its a statement justifying that you can't be so black and white about him and Sidious, and that he very well could have held his own in ROTJ.
Originally posted by DarkSideisMethUm, yes, we actually do need GL to spell it out for us. Can you imagine the endless cycle of debates if he hadn't explicitly said Dooku lost fair and square, Vader's 80%, etc.?
Haha if you don't know that sidious was weaker in ROTJ physically than ROTS I can only shake my head. Pretty sure lucas dosn't need to outline the obious points in crayon.And I was arguing, if you actually read what I said, about Luke's achievements up to that point that demonstrate his unrealized potential. That isn't about what he may become, its a statement justifying that you can't be so black and white about him and Sidious, and that he very well could have held his own in ROTJ.
And seriously, buddy, throw me a bone here. I'm a hungry dog--STARVING for some sources! I can't scrounge around with a belly full of supposition and opinions.
Well this is discussion, opinion is going to be a lot of it. I don't have the books in front of me to draw from, I will mention what i recall from reading, usually also stating with a (?) if I'm incorrect or say as I recall. But if your just going to hover around needing an edict from Pope GL on every subject, I can't really run much by you.
Star Wars universe, to a degree is open to debate on a variety of issues. It is still expanding, every changing, and dynamic, while the outcome of certain events are written in stone we are always allowed to voice our opinion on any given idea with support. And that dosn't need to constantly be from a piece of writing, although drawing upon sources of examples is a good idea.
But I'm done, you've pretty much played devils advocate to everything I've posted tonight, without really putting much an argument up yourself or producing anything for discussion. If this is the way this forum is run generally, then I do not belong here and will probably retire to the Expanded Universe one.
Peace out Lucien, perhaps see you in future discussion.
Originally posted by DarkSideisMethWill someone fill this guy in for me?
Well this is discussion, opinion is going to be a lot of it. I don't have the books in front of me to draw from, I will mention what i recall from reading, usually also stating with a (?) if I'm incorrect or say as I recall. But if your just going to hover around needing an edict from Pope GL on every subject, I can't really run much by you.Star Wars universe, to a degree is open to debate on a variety of issues. It is still expanding, every changing, and dynamic, while the outcome of certain events are written in stone we are always allowed to voice our opinion on any given idea with support. And that dosn't need to constantly be from a piece of writing, although drawing upon sources of examples is a good idea.
But I'm done, you've pretty much played devils advocate to everything I've posted tonight, without really putting much an argument up yourself or producing anything for discussion. If this is the way this forum is run generally, then I do not belong here and will probably retire to the Expanded Universe one.
Peace out Lucien, perhaps see you in future discussion.
Yes for the record we are talking about ROTS Sidious. Also Lord Lucien were do you get that Luke only received three weeks of training?
When Luke went for more training by Yoda, Yoda stated that there was nothing more to teach. Yoda also stated that Luke would have to defeat Vader to become a Jedi showing that he recognize that Luke was ready to battle Vader.
Vader stated that your skills are complete. Luke also mustered up enough force power to overpower Vader. Vader who is 80% of a ROTJ Sidious. Even Sidious provoke Luke into a battle with Vader. You also have Obi Wan who express his confidence in Luke. So you have two Jedi Masters and two Sith Lords who all express that Luke was ready to fight Vader.
Since the only proof that has been provided that Vader was not giving his all is Luke's own feelings on the matter and Vader was legitimately defeated by Luke, how is Luke not a factor in this battle?
Originally posted by Kotor3"Your skills are complete," certainly can't be an attempt at persuasion by Vader. "Nothing left for you to learn (or whatever)" certainly can't be the words of a dieing master trying to boost the confidence of the only possible person who can pull a win out of his hat.
Yes for the record we are talking about ROTS Sidious. Also Lord Lucien were do you get that Luke only received three weeks of training?When Luke went for more training by Yoda, Yoda stated that there was nothing more to teach. Yoda also stated that Luke would have to defeat Vader to become a Jedi showing that he recognize that Luke was ready to battle Vader.
Vader stated that your skills are complete. Luke also mustered up enough force power to overpower Vader. Vader who is 80% of a ROTJ Sidious. Even Sidious provoke Luke into a battle with Vader. You also have Obi Wan who express his confidence in Luke. So you have two Jedi Masters and two Sith Lords who all express that Luke was ready to fight Vader.
Since the only proof that has been provided that Vader was not giving his all is Luke's own feelings on the matter and Vader was legitimately defeated by Luke, how is Luke not a factor in this battle?
Skills are complete... and yet Luke goes from down here *gestures with hand near ground*, to up there *points to the summit of Mount Olympus*.
Hmm, something doesn't mesh... what could it be?
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
"Your skills are complete," certainly can't be an attempt at persuasion by Vader. "Nothing left for you to learn (or whatever)" certainly can't be the words of a dieing master trying to boost the confidence of the only possible person who can pull a win out of his hat.Skills are complete... and yet Luke goes from down here *gestures with hand near ground*, to up there *points to the summit of Mount Olympus*.
Hmm, something doesn't mesh... what could it be?
Ok. So Vader wanted to persuade someone who already came there to either fight him or submit himself to the Emperor. Yoda also wanted Luke to commit suicide and gave him some encouraging words, even though he knew Luke had no chance. Also Obi Wan knew Luke had no chance. This is not ESB Luke.
I have no more agrument on this one. You feel that Luke is not a factor then fine. I do feel he is a factor and provided examples and quotes to support my reasoning. You can translate them into whatever fits your argument if you wish.
Originally posted by Kotor3Good god, read what faunus posted then, he simply resaid everything i said, just that its shorter.Since the only proof that has been provided that Vader was not giving his all is Luke's own feelings on the matter and Vader was legitimately defeated by Luke, how is Luke not a factor in this battle?
Vader wasn't going all out period fullstop.
Originally posted by Darksideismeth
Gideon you haven't made much of an argument.
Uh-huh.
Listen, I realize you're new around here, so I'm not going to berate or reprimand you for your retarded opinion. The fact of the matter is that you are woefully ignorant of the majority of sources that indicate that Palpatine's powers and skills exceed even the combined strength of Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker; so I will attempt to deal with you once and only once. If you continue to remain obstinate, then I'll simply put you on Ignore and move on.
I would say Sidious' powers did not get any more considerable from ROTS to ROTJ
Well, as we have seen, you know essentially jack shit about the continuity. So I shall explain for you. When Palpatine ascended to Galactic Emperor, he delegated the majority of his responsibilities to aides and acolytes such as Sate Pestage. His role was simply to be supreme; he had others handle the day-to-day operations of the Empire while he secluded himself on Coruscant to further his study of the Force. According to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, Palpatine gathered the greatest works of Force knowledge in over a million worlds and mastered the Force in all its guises. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia goes on to say that Palpatine collected a wealth of holocrons -- Sith and Jedi alike -- to study. The fact of the matter is that due to greater resources and a greater scope of study, he did increase in power, considerably.
So, yeah, you're wrong.
Palpatine's physical state isn't a handicap; ancient and withered creatures like Yoda are able to compensate using the Force. Is Sidious any different? No. He is faster, far more powerful, and far cleverer than either opponents. They don't have a prayer.