Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Movies get precedence. And no one's slamming Luke's achievements, it's the skills and powers people think he has.
I hear what you are saying but what powers and skills are people saying that Luke has by ROTJ that you do not agree with?
Here are some powers and skills that Luke has displayed up to ROTJ:
ANH – Luke with very little training was able to direct firepower from his ship using the force.
ESB – Luke learned TK from Yoda and showed force jump and impress Vader.
ROTJ – Luke was able to influence the mind of people using the force and contend with Vader in saber combat. Luke constructed his own lightsaber when there was no Jedi temple and was able to also tap into his force reserves since at this time he uses his aggression when fighting.
Originally posted by Kotor3Those are all signs of being able to use the Force, not that he excels in using it.
I hear what you are saying but what powers and skills are people saying that Luke has by ROTJ that you do not agree with?Here are some powers and skills that Luke has displayed up to ROTJ:
ANH – Luke with very little training was able to direct firepower from his ship using the force.
ESB – Luke learned TK from Yoda and showed force jump and impress Vader.
ROTJ – Luke was able to influence the mind of people using the force and contend with Vader in saber combat. Luke constructed his own lightsaber when there was no Jedi temple and was able to also tap into his force reserves since at this time he uses his aggression when fighting.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Those are all signs of being able to use the Force, not that he excels in using it.
Lord Lucien you stated before that no one is trying to take away from Luke's achievements but you just did with your statement above.
Luke excelled in everything he did that is why Vader was impressed with him and Luke’s achievements are extraordinary. These displays by Luke were not during training sessions but in life threatening situations. To be able to use the force does not mean Luke would have been able to direct the firepower from his ship to a direct entry point while Vader was trying to kill him and the rebels lives were at stake, that took power and skill. To escape Vader and not be captured takes power and skill. To defeat Vader in saber combat takes power and skill. How does Luke not excel?
Did he master the techniques to the full potential the he would later on? No. Does he excelled in them enough to combat the people mention in the thread I believe so.
When the 'people mentioned in the thread' include Darth Maul and F'ing Count Dooku then you are clearly descending into fanboyism. Its a weak fanboyism too- you could worship a DBZ style character instead of a scrawny farm kid... but I digress.
Luke's 'directing firepower' means very little as the only thing he did was let the Force guide his shots. He did not apply the Force. It was completely passive. Accessing the Force under pressure is a good feat but everyone can do it.
Luke doesn't make it past Ventress and if by some miracle he does Grievous pwns him.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Lord Lucien you stated before that no one is trying to take away from Luke's achievements but you just did with your statement above.
Did he master the techniques to the full potential the he would later on? No. Does he excelled in them enough to combat the people mention in the thread I believe so.
Those feats listed aren't all that great, nor do they put him on or very the level of Vader, nor of the level of any of the opponents in this duel. Let's take a look
Ventress, I'm not all that familiar but I do know she killed multiple in the cw and gave Anakin tough duels when they fought. The fact that she uses two lightsabers and can connect is a huge advantage since ROTJ Luke has never fought an opponent with them before.
Grievous's style is completely unorthodox, he has shown himself to be able to contend with multiple jedi at once, and has killed numerous jedi in the cw. The fact that he uses 4 lightsabers=Luke getting curbstomped not to mention that he defeated Ventress and Durge at the same time.
Kit Fisto was one of the orders greatest lightsaber duelists ever and he was to push back General Grievous, cutting off one of his mechanical hands, which caused him to call for his manga guards to come to his aid.
Darth Maul is a physical beast, "one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history," he is a master of unarmed combat, juyo, he was able to kill Qui-gon who was "one of the most able swordsman" in the order and he forced Anoon Bondara to try a suicidal maneuver since he couldn't kill Maul.
Count Dooku was the one trained General Grievous, he is master of Makashi(and had a good knowledge of the other forms), he has decades of experience, he was of only two jedi to beat Mace Windu (the other being Yoda) in lightsaber combat, he is more powerful then Luke force. Do I really need to go on?
Since many of the post are addressed to me I will answer all at once. First of all there is no fanboyism here. All you have to do is counter my argument.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Luke's 'directing firepower' means very little as the only thing he did was let the Force guide his shots. He did not apply the Force. It was completely passive. Accessing the Force under pressure is a good feat but everyone can do it.
How long does it take for a force user to learn how to direct things using the force? Directing a laser shot is totally different from directing firepower from a space ship. How much power and training does that take? Let us not forget Luke had little to no training at all at the time of him performing this feat. Yes anyone can use the force under pressure but does not mean they can perform spectacular feats and be successful at them.
Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
Where exactly does he say Luke isn't able to use the Force..?
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Those feats listed aren't all that great, nor do they put him on or very the level of Vader, nor of the level of any of the opponents in this duel. Let's take a look
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Ventress, I'm not all that familiar but I do know she killed multiple in the cw and gave Anakin tough duels when they fought. The fact that she uses two lightsabers and can connect is a huge advantage since ROTJ Luke has never fought an opponent with them before.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Grievous's style is completely unorthodox, he has shown himself to be able to contend with multiple jedi at once, and has killed numerous jedi in the cw. The fact that he uses 4 lightsabers=Luke getting curbstomped not to mention that he defeated Ventress and Durge at the same time.
As for other people you mention I will leave that alone as you have express your opinion on the matter. Dooku is the only one on the list in my opinion that would definitely defeat Luke. One other thing people seem to be forgetting is that as of ROTJ Luke used aggression when fighting. There is no reason to believe that Luke would not tap into his force reserves when battling the people mention on this thread.
Directing a laser shot is totally different from directing firepower from a space ship.
How the he... Heck did you reach that conclusion? To direct 'firepower' one does not do anything more strenuous than move a joystick and press some buttons. You are still aiming something. It isn't like Luke used a Shadow Bomb to take out the Death Star. There is no difference between aiming a blaster under stress and aiming a torpedo under stress.
Originally posted by Kotor3
I disagree with this statement.
Look at the feats
ANH – Luke with very little training was able to direct firepower from his ship using the force.
This is the only one that is impressive but has nothing to do with personal combat nor does it put him above any of his opponents.
ESB – Luke learned TK from Yoda and showed force jump and impress Vader.
ROTJ – Luke was able to influence the mind of people using the force
and contend with Vader in saber combat.
Luke constructed his own lightsaber when there was no Jedi temple
One other thing people seem to be forgetting is that as of ROTJ Luke used aggression when fighting. There is no reason to believe that Luke would not tap into his force reserves when battling the people mention on this thread.
Ventress cause Anakin problems once and that was when they first fought. Anakin was not near the level he is in ROTS.How about the fact that she temporarily incapacitated Kit Fitso(one of the greatest duelists the order has ever produced , Luke isn't beating either btw), and that she was more then a match vs Luminara Unduli and Ahsoka Tano.
Two sabers or one, it does not matter.
Luke would definitely do the same as he did to Vader.
Vader may not have had to agility that he had as Anakin but he is no push over in saber combat.
I don’t see Grievous defeated Vader in saber combat and don’t see him defeating Luke.
There is no reason to believe that Luke would not tap into his force reserves when battling the people mention on this thread.