Red Nemesis
The Blind Critic
Originally posted by Kotor3
Elite you really answer my question. First of all this is not ESB Luke we are talking about. Tell me how many times have Obi Wan and Anakin used the force offensively in a duel?
Elite's point (if I may be so bold as to speak for him) is that arcane and obscure Force techniques are not needed to obtain Force superiority over an opponent. Vader was able to use a basic attack (TK) against his foe and defeat him even though it is a 'basic attack.'
Also, off the top of my head:
Kenobi used the Force offensively:
In RotS to crush the Magna guards with a crate
In RotS to counter/repel Anakin's attack
In RotS (novel) to pelt Anakin with debris and shrapnel (maybe)
In AotC (maybe?) to push doids during battle (one of the few Force Pushes shown on screen)
Skywalker used the Force offensively:
In RotS (novel) to pelt Dooku (and later Kenobi) with shrapnel during their respective duels
In RotS to attack Kenobi with an uncharacteristically weak force push
In RotS to choke Padme
In AotC to pelt Geonosians with droids 'n' such during the Factory scene
You can see that it is not unheard of for the Dream Team to attack with the Force.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Another question unanswered. The point it to show how quickly Luke was advancing in power.
Great. He was advancing in power. Can you explain how 'Being able to use the force on a weak minded nonforce sensitive' is a show of power at all? Or how it applies to combat? No? Too bad.
Originally posted by Kotor3
When did I say that Luke was not using the dark side?
EH was responding to this:
Yes Vader did not use his superiority in terms of force mastery but he was not holding back in saber combat. He was over powered and out matched in the saber battle. Also Luke was not trying to kill Vader when fighting. Luke was not going all out either. Luke only lost control when he got angry.
It is quite clear that Luke was going all out for the duration of the fight.
Originally posted by Kotor3
The quotes from the novel that you have displayed clearly show one thing that Vader was being outclassed in saber combat by Luke and that Vader was shocked by Luke’s display of power and skill.
Did we read the same passage? Being pushed back =/= outclassed. Also: being pushed back =/= shocked by display of power and skill. Unless you know something that I don't I'm afraid that you are reading too much into this passage. All that it shows
conclusively is that when Luke attacked 'more aggressively' (than before) he was able to push Vader back.
Originally posted by Kotor3
It does not show that Luke wanted to kill Vader and was going all out which would be a direct contradiction to what is displayed in the movies.
It wouldn't be a contradiction at all. Luke was enraged; by all indications he
did want to kill Vader. It is only later, during a lull in the fighting that Luke regains his composure (and stops wielding a baseball bat) and decides to remain with the light.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Further just like Anakin, when Luke tapped into the darkside he was being tempted with power and saw that he could end everything.
O....K? That doesn't show that Vader wasn't holding back (which is your position) or that Luke was holding back or even relate to the discussion at all. I mean, its great that you analyzed the passage for us- making connections in literature is a technique of a good reader and is a good habit to have. (Or so the experts tell me.) Could you explain why you thought you needed to tell your thoughts to everyone else?
Originally posted by Kotor3
You seem to keep saying the same thing about there being circumstances surrounding Luke win over Vader.
There were: The superior combatant (Vader) was unwilling to kill his opponent (Luke).
Originally posted by Kotor3
The same can be said of Anakin and Dooku,
The novel makes it abundantly clear that Dooku decides to kill Anakin:
"No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice." (Thought Dooku.)
Originally posted by Kotor3
Obi Wan and Maul,
In combat it has been shown that Maul > Kenobi. That Maul got stupid
after combat
ended doesn't invalidate his (short lived) victory over the padawan. Unless you'd like to argue that Padawan Kenobi > Maul?
Originally posted by Kotor3
Sidious and Mace,
Mace defeated Sidious. There weren't any special circumstances until the end.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Sidious and Yoda.
There weren't any 'special circumstances' here
at all.
Originally posted by Kotor3
That does not take away from the feat. Neither does it mean that Vader gave away the fight.
Later, (in the Saga) Luke reflects "so this is what it would have been like if Vader had tried to kill me." (Or some such.) Luke is convinced, later in life, that Vader had held back. Greatest swordsman of age's opinion > yours.
Originally posted by Kotor3
There is nothing to explain here. I am basing my argument on who is more powerful in the force and skill level. I already provided the example where Ventress was overpowered by someone more powerful in the force.
ABC generally doesn't fly here. Scissors beats paper beats rock beats scissors... and so on. The fact is that Luke has never fought someone using Jar'Kai (which is a confirmed advantage). Ventress was able to defeat
many Jedi (31 by
Obsession?) Luke's mastery of the Force and blade are nowhere near hers.
Originally posted by Kotor3
You are basing your argument on the fact that Luke never fought someone with two sabers. Great argument!
As PoD shows, even Bane (who, as much as it pains me to admit it,
was a lightsaber prodigy) had difficulty coping with two blades. Bane had had much more training than Luke at that point and was a superior swordsman. The introduction of a second weapon made a
huge difference- swinging the battle from a near stomp for Bane to making him want to get out with his life.
Originally posted by Kotor3
I already answered this twice. I gave my opinions as to why Luke would win. Defeating Vader is something. It is not like Vader was slow. Vader was a powerful force user which would obviously be reflected in his use of a lightsaber. If you do not want to accept Luke as being skill with a light saber because you feel Vader gave away the fight then fine. I disagree. Everyone knows what form Luke uses.
Vader threw the match. Luke realizes this later. That Luke could even keep up with him (at all) is mildly impressive but does not put him on these combatants' level. Assaj Ventress, let alone Maul or Dooku would
ruin him. (What form
does Luke use? How does it apply? Do we care? I'd like all of these questions answered.)
Originally posted by Kotor3
My comment was that Vader’s actions and words is what prompted Luke’s aggression and angry. It was Vader that blocked Luke attack on the emperor. It was Vader who kept telling Luke to not resist even before the fight started. Luke already wanted to kill the emperor when he came there that never changed.
I can't for the life of me figure out why this is relevant to the issue at hand: is Luke's performance against Vader impressive enough to put him on Ventress and Fisto and Maul's level? The answer is
no. Vader threw the fight and none of Luke's other feats (that have been brought up) are anywhere
near impressive.
Originally posted by Kotor3
I understand your statement now more clearly. However I never got the impression that you just stated. Luke did not use the targeting system. So how would the controls help him? Do you have a source that proves your point that Luke was only controlling the controls, which makes no sense to me? The controls can only help but so much.
Luke used the controls to fire his weapons. That is how a spaceship works. The most impressive interpretation of this feat that I can come up with is that Luke used the Force to manipulate the controls of his ship without computer support. He did not alter the course of the torpedo with the force after it had left, and he did not propel the torpedo with the Force. This simply isn't that impressive.