Luke Cage (with upgrade) vs Abomination

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
All I know is that its implied that Wolverines strength is doubled by Adamantuim.

You can't prove it would improve anyone else's strength by just stating that. Actually, prove that Sabreetooth got increased strength with his adamantium or get out of here.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
His body is only not like a humans body because it has superhuman strength this does not mean that the principle does not apply to him.

It doesn't mean you can apply it either, I certainly don't see why you just choose to.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Stating that im making an assumption when I have given a reason for my opinion which you havent disproved doesnt make it an assumption. You are just making a statement with nothing to back it up.

You are assuming that adamantium gives more physical strength just like that without caring or worrying whether it applies to Luke or not.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You dont know anything about why Jocasta can lift 50 tons but I would assume that she has a power source and other factors that add to that strength level.

I used Jocasta as an example of how titanium hard materials can support more than 30 tons of strain, so Luke's strength is probably not so much that his body would be upgraded by having a stronger skeleton.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ermm because its stated that his strength limit is 25 tons? We also know that when he was weaker he was less durable as well so that doesnt exactly hurt my case.

Or we can assume that the same thing that made him more resistant also made him stronger, I think that was pretty much implied in the comics.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I have more proof that it does than it doesnt.

In Wolverine. You are ASSUMING it would work in Luke. Are you going to tell me that an adamantium skeleton would double Superman's strength?

Originally posted by Bentley
You can't prove it would improve anyone else's strength by just stating that.

I didnt state anything. Marvel Universe did .

Originally posted by Bentley

Actually, prove that Sabreetooth got increased strength with his adamantium or get out of here.

But Sabretooths bio doesnt compare his strength before and after.

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/s/sabretooth.htm

Strength level: Sabretooth possesses the normal human strength of a man of his physical age, height, and build who engages in intensive regular exercise

However after his ugrade his stated as having superhuman strength and since Wolverines strength is doubled theres no reason why Sabretooth shouldnt.

Originally posted by Bentley

It doesn't mean you can apply it either, I certainly don't see why you just choose to.

Again please explain why I cant. Stating that I cant doesnt mean I cant.

Originally posted by Bentley

You are assuming that adamantium gives more physical strength just like that without caring or worrying whether it applies to Luke or not.

Im not assuming anything. I explained why it would apply to Luke you gave an explanation as to why it wouldnt and I replied to it.

Originally posted by Bentley

I used Jocasta as an example of how titanium hard materials can support more than 30 tons of strain, so Luke's strength is probably not so much that his body would be upgraded by having a stronger skeleton.

As I stated to you you dont know anything about Jocasta if you have a bio that states what components give her 50 ton strength then you would have a point.

I actually have a bio that specifies what actually gives Wolverine strength level.

Originally posted by Bentley

Or we can assume that the same thing that made him more resistant also made him stronger, I think that was pretty much implied in the comics.

Well he was less durable and weaker prior to his upgrade I dont see why durability doesnt have anything to do with it and it doesnt hurt my argument.

Originally posted by Bentley

In Wolverine. You are ASSUMING it would work in Luke.

No not really.

Originally posted by Bentley

Are you going to tell me that an adamantium skeleton would double Superman's strength?

The problem with this is that you're agrumnet could actually apply to Superman because his body seems to be alot closer to adamantuim. Luke cant take shots from Thor hammer, Superman could.

P.S. Im not stating its clear cut but I think I have more proof that it than it doesnt. Also in comics it really doesnt matter how logical things are there is always soemthing to contradict it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
However after his ugrade his stated as having superhuman strength and since Wolverines strength is doubled theres no reason why Sabretooth shouldnt.

It seems that Marvel doesn't say anyone else than Wolverine gets the strength upgrade. Good.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
As I stated to you you dont know anything about Jocasta if you have a bio that states what components give her 50 ton strength then you would have a point.

I don't have the scans, I'll get back to you later.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I actually have a bio that specifies what actually gives Wolverine strength level.

And if you don't have one about an adamantium laced Luke Cage you are assuming.

Are we to ignore physics because they are not in a bio? We explained how and why a stronger skeleton would increase someone's strength, I already explain why it wouldn't apply to Luke. As far as I know, physics are applied in comics unless stated otherwise.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The problem with this is that you're agrumnet could actually apply to Superman because his body seems to be alot closer to adamantuim. Luke cant take shots from Thor hammer, Superman could.

Wolvie had about 2 tons of upgrade thanks to adamantium, and you are assuming that Luke is going to get a 30 ton upgrade, just like that. Who is assuming crazier things?

It doesnt matter if it doubles his strength or not, abomination could end this fight quite easily and in mere minutes. This fight is lop sided. This is a 10/10 for abom and easily.

Originally posted by Bentley
It seems that Marvel doesn't say anyone else than Wolverine gets the strength upgrade. Good.

So are we know going to assume that adamantuim only doubles Wolverines strength now and anybody else with a similar strength range doesnt get a strength increase?

So Sabretooth is stated to have superhuman strength after his upgrade with adamantuim doesnt mean anything?

Originally posted by Bentley

And if you don't have one about an adamantium laced Luke Cage you are assuming.

Are we to ignore physics because they are not in a bio? We explained how and why a stronger skeleton would increase someone's strength, I already explain why it wouldn't apply to Luke. As far as I know, physics are applied in comics unless stated otherwise.

It based on the principle that Wolverines strength was doubled. You responded to it by telling me that difference is minimal because titanuim is extremely durable. I adressed that point by explaining that durability of titantuim to adamantuim is massive, titanuim might as well be bone.

You havent explained anything. What you need to do is respond to this point.

I adressed that point by explaining that durability of titantuim to adamantuim is massive, titanuim might as well be bone.

That would actually help instead of just repeating that I keep making assumptions.

Originally posted by Bentley

Wolvie had about 2 tons of upgrade thanks to adamantium, and you are assuming that Luke is going to get a 30 ton upgrade, just like that. Who is assuming crazier things?

Again explain why its an assumption. Address my explanation of why I think he will get the increase. Look im not trying to be a douche bag but you need to actually respond to arguments raised. 😬

Abomination is not strong enough to put him down with his incredible healing factor, durability, impenetrable skin and adamantium bones. We are not talking about Bannerless Hulk here we are talking about Abomination

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Lets be honest. One-shotting IronClad and Doc Samson was a lows showings but the fact that Luke Cage has traded blows with Orca suggests he can at least punch it out with them for a duration.

Do you think that Luke Cage trading blows with Orca is bad writing? Do you also think its fair to classify everything that disagress with your point of view as bad writing. I undertsand what you are saying about Doc and Ironclad but to then say that about Orca suggests you just reject everything that disagrees with you're point.

If you can agree there low showings why bring them up I mean none of the guys you listed here can beat abomination, and are you referring to the fight Cage had with Orca in Heroes for Hire Vol.2? where Orka got shot in the back while fighting Luke.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech
If you can agree there low showings why bring them up I mean none of the guys you listed here can beat abomination,

Because even if he cant one-shot them he can at least trade blows with them for awhile. With his upgrades he can hurt and trade blows with class 100s

Originally posted by SuperiorTech

and are you referring to the fight Cage had with Orca in Heroes for Hire Vol.2? where Orka got shot in the back while fighting Luke.

Thats true but ive never seen BK with immense firepower. I intepreted that as BK had brefly weakened Orca and therefore the fight ended quickly. However if the fight had continued the fight would have gone on for longer possibly with Luke losing or winning.

As it states on panel he was trading blows with Orca prior to BK turning up.

Cage wins

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You selectively siphoned out what information you wanted and responded to what was irrelevant. Rulk was kicking Aboms arse IGNORED. The fact that he used a gun is irrelevant, the fact that he may not be dead is irrelevant.

Good grief man. That was the very first issue, even before he punched out Uatu. That is an exceptionally bad example.

Ok why is Doc Samson a jobber?

Who has he beaten of relevance?

Why is Orca a jobber?

Because he got himself killed?

Why is Ironclad a jobber?

Because he's never won a fight?

Uh yeah. Cap feats of strength range from 1 to 2 tons. Wolverine HF acts similar to the SSS and his feats of strength can be classifed at 4 tons range. Hell Wolverine was able to pull an elevator full of people with one arm, that obvoulsy had something to do with his adamantuim and theres now way Cap could do that.

Also Luke Cage has always been able to punch harder than people of his strength range and he will be able to punch harder know he has adamantuim bones.

Its not over hyped when you already have class 25 strength and the adamntuim makes you stronger and makes you hit harder.

Come on man, so it amps his strength by 4 tons? 29 tonner versus a 100+ tonner with a remarkable healing factor of his own not to mention he's a trained killer?

Even with these upgrades Cage would have to be atleast an 85 tonner to win this.

Cage loses this one, sorry.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

Thats true but ive never seen BK with immense firepower. I intepreted that as BK had brefly weakened Orca and therefore the fight ended quickly. However if the fight had continued the fight would have gone on for longer possibly with Luke losing or winning.

As it states on panel he was trading blows with Orca prior to BK turning up.

Yes he was trading blows with Orca until he got that Left to the face which rocked him and the black Knight Cheap-shotted Orca allowing Cage to win the fight.The black Knight was given the Sword of Light and Shield of Night in issue 2 by the lady of the lake.I saw nothing in that fight that made me think cage had a chance to win on his own.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Do you think that Luke Cage trading blows with Orca is bad writing? Do you also think its fair to classify everything that disagress with your point of view as bad writing. I undertsand what you are saying about Doc and Ironclad but to then say that about Orca suggests you just reject everything that disagrees with you're point.

Alright, i'll be honest with you. I dont know much about Orka so i'm probably wrong to include him. I just know he's something like class 80 so it shouldnt be a fight. I mean, the guy smacked Namor around before. Cage shouldnt be an issue. Regardless, I really dont care about Orka and I see you agree with Samson and Ironclad so thats good enough with me.

Also Luke at class10 range has been able to crack classic Iron Mans armour is that bad writing as well?

That6s true but I just posted some scans showing Luke Cage dodge the majority of Hulks punches.

Absolutely it was bad writing. The same scans you showed of Cage dodging the Hulk is the same book where he couldnt even crack a boulder that was lodged into the mountain. You tell me if it was bad writing. Heck, Cage cracking Iron Mans armor today with his upgrades would be bad writing in my opinion.

However if Luke prior to his upgrade could trade blows with somebody in class 80 range and hurt him with his upgrades he can hurt Abom with his punches.

I'm calling low showings for the people he's hurt just to make the character look better than what he truly is. I mean, prior to his upgrade, the Thing has toyed with him. I mean humbling the guy so its hard for me to believe that he could or should be trading punches with class 80 characters. He was a minor annoyance to the Hulk during the issue you used as an example and nothing more. To hurt a class 80 character is just asinine.

The problem is I just posted a bio that proves this. So basically what you are doing is ignoring everything that you dont agree with.
If you're going to debate like that theres really no point.

Here is what you posted -

Strength Level: While Wolverine may be of an advanced age, he possesses the normal human strength of a man in his prime with his height and build who engages in intensive regular exercise. While possessing the adamantium skeleton, Wolverine's strength was increased to the human maximum, making him capable of lifting (pressing) 800 lbs.

So what you take from this is that Adamantium is magical to the dregree that it boosts one stength? You dont think it has anything to do with the added capability of the bones to inflict a greater sum of leverage? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech
Yes he was trading blows with Orca until he got that Left to the face which rocked him

You've never seen a fight were a person gets rocked by a perons pucnh but carrys on fighting? Hell Punisher was laid flat on his back by Kraven but carried on fighting to a stalemate and this example isn't even that bad.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech

and the black Knight Cheap-shotted Orca allowing Cage to win the fight.The black Knight was given the [B]Sword of Light and Shield of Night in issue 2 by the lady of the lake.[/B]

Ok BK sword was more powerful than I thought.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech

I saw nothing in that fight that made me think cage had a chance to win on his own.

Im not saying he would have defntely won but if you can trade blows with somebody you stand a fair chance of beating them.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Good grief man. That was the very first issue, even before he punched out Uatu. That is an exceptionally bad example.

LOL thats not the point. Rulk is a bad example but the point is that wasnt your argument in the first place. All you said was that Rulk used a gun but ignored the fact that he was kicking his arse ie the point you used to counter his argument was irrelevant.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

Who has he beaten of relevance?

He doesnt neccsarily have to beat anybody hes got good showings against the best. Hell hes only gone toe-to-toe with the Hulk. I guess because hes never beaten the Hulk means he sux.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

Because he got himself killed?

EPIC FAIL. Captain Marvel got himself killed I guess hes a jobber as well.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

Because he's never won a fight?

Hes a supervillain most villains dont win a fight because they are written to lose, however hes not up there with guys like Abomination.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

Come on man, so it amps his strength by 4 tons?

You're not getting the point. Without the sketelton who would be considerably weaker. His bio implies that Wolverines strength is doubled.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

29 tonner versus a 100+ tonner with a remarkable healing factor of his own not to mention he's a trained killer?

What remarkable HF?
Hes NEVER shown any h2h skills in a fight.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

Even with these upgrades Cage would have to be atleast an 85 tonner to win this.

Of course he does thats why Cage at class 25 was able to trade blows with somebody class 80.....therefore logically he needs at least 60 more tons....uhhhhhh.

Originally posted by tkitna
Alright, i'll be honest with you. I dont know much about Orka so i'm probably wrong to include him. I just know he's something like class 80 so it shouldnt be a fight. I mean, the guy smacked Namor around before. Cage shouldnt be an issue. Regardless, I really dont care about Orka and I see you agree with Samson and Ironclad so thats good enough with me.

Uhhh again so that was bad writing? So in other words your point is that anything that you dont agree with is incorrect? That is precsialy what you are doing.

Originally posted by tkitna

Absolutely it was bad writing.

So in other words your point is that anything that you dont agree with is incorrect? That is precsialy what you are doing.

Originally posted by tkitna

The same scans you showed of Cage dodging the Hulk is the same book where he couldnt even crack a boulder that was lodged into the mountain. You tell me if it was bad writing.

1. A pissed off Spiderman has severaly damaged an advanced Iron Mans armour from the future. Considering that Luke Cages punches are harder than Spiderman because of his skin its possible for him to do it.

2. Hes damaged Dr Dooms armour as well. Let me guess thats bad writing as well? C'mon man be reasonable I keep picking all these feats you keep stating that its bad writing that sound reasonable to you?

3. Captain America has lots of showings that indicate that he can hurt class 100s. According to your logic because hes hurt his hand trying to punch Thor and had trouble trying to Ko Super Patriot (class 10) that means that its bad writing. Its not bad writing people feats vary, we dont just choose all the bad ones we look at both good and bad and come to an average. The avarage shows that its not bad writing.

Originally posted by tkitna

Heck, Cage cracking Iron Mans armor today with his upgrades would be bad writing in my opinion.

The Iron Man today is much more advanced so there no point in bringing that up.

Originally posted by tkitna

I'm calling low showings for the people he's hurt just to make the character look better than what he truly is.

No you're not all you are doing is stating that any good feats done by Cage is bad writing. Lets summarise:

Luke fighting Doc Samson. Bad writing.
Luke figting Ironclad . Bad writing.
Luke fighting Orca bad writing.
Luke cracking Iron Mans armour. Bad writing.

Lets add some more to that.

Luke being so durable Carnage wasnt able to hurt him. Is that bad writing?
Hiriom punching Luke so hard that was almost level with a skyscraper and Luke getting straight back up Was that bad writing as well?
Luke Cage damaging Dr Dooms armour? Bad writing.

....c'mon man. 😬

Originally posted by tkitna

I mean, prior to his upgrade, the Thing has toyed with him. I mean humbling the guy so its hard for me to believe that he could or should be trading punches with class 80 characters. .

That was prior to his upgrade! You even indicated in your post why it was a bad example.....uhhhh!!!

Originally posted by tkitna

He was a minor annoyance to the Hulk during the issue you used as an example and nothing more..

That was to indicate how agile he was! That was before his upgrade anyway and nobody is even debating that Cage could currently beat Hulk.

Originally posted by tkitna

To hurt a class 80 character is just asinine.

Because you say it is and nothing more. All you have done is stated that every good thing that Cage has done is bad writing, thats terrible debating.

Originally posted by tkitna

Here is what you posted -

Strength Level: While Wolverine may be of an advanced age, he possesses the normal human strength of a man in his prime with his height and build who engages in intensive regular exercise. While possessing the adamantium skeleton, Wolverine's strength was increased to the human maximum, making him capable of lifting (pressing) 800 lbs.

So what you take from this is that Adamantium is magical to the dregree that it boosts one stength? You dont think it has anything to do with the added capability of the bones to inflict a greater sum of leverage? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

What are you trying to say? Despite the fact that his bio states in black and white that the adamantuim increases his strength it doesnt?
🤨

The fact of the matter is the bio strongly implies that Wolverine strength is doubled, you can feel free to ignore it if you wont.

Stating that adamantuim makes his punches more effective is nether here nor there. It never said it didnt it also doesnt hurt my argument that not only will get an increase in strength he will have adamantuim knuckledusters.

Originally posted by golem370
Abomination has not went toe to toe with Savage Hulk but Rulk as well he is a 100tons character who is extremely tough and has a healing factor.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You've never seen a fight were a person gets rocked by a perons pucnh but carrys on fighting? Hell Punisher was laid flat on his back by Kraven but carried on fighting to a stalemate and this example isn't even that bad.

Ok BK sword was more powerful than I thought.

Im not saying he would have defntely won but if you can trade blows with somebody you stand a fair chance of beating them.

Your kidding right I responded to you saying that Luke cage knocked out ocka, what you conveniently left was the part where he was shot in the back by the black knight.So either you red the issue and decided to ignore that part or you didn't read it and didn't know.Dont try to twist it into something else.

Black Knight thought he was in enough trouble with orcka that he needed the help and it was only after orcka was shot that he was able to knock him out.

Yeah you talking about the same arc where punisher was able to choke out Tiger Shark IN WATER you really wanna bring that up.

Have you heard of the Thing the ability to have a good showing against someone stronger than you and the ability to beat them are two different things.Dont look at a fight completely ignore parts of it to make the person your debating for look good.

Ironclad my be a villain and villains in the end will always lose but when you can take a beating from a pissed off professor hulk and you cant take one punch from luke cage that's called bad writing.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech
Your kidding right I responded to you saying that Luke cage knocked out ocka, what you conveniently left was the part where he was shot in the back by the black knight.So either you red the issue and decided to ignore that part or you didn't read it and didn't know.

I already explained that. I said that it IMO all it seemed to do was breifly weaken Orca but IMO Luke could have still won the fight. However since you told me where he got it from the sword blast was obvoulsy more than a powerful than I thought and was a significant reason as to why Luke won that fight.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech

Dont try to twist it into something else.

You stated to me that Orca rocked Luke with a punch and I then responded by saying that just because he was rocked by one puch doesnt mean that he couldnt win. In your opinion thats twisting things around and not merely responding to your point?

Originally posted by SuperiorTech

Black Knight thought he was in enough trouble with orcka that he needed the help and it was only after orcka was shot that he was able to knock him out.

Bringing up BK doesnt not help your case and in fact my previous opinion were I stated that BKs blast didnt do that much to Orca is justfied. BK saidslight assist. So clearly BKs blast didnt do that much much to Orca but obvously it helped but the main contribution to was Lukes punches.

Just because BK helped Luke doesnt prove that Luke couldnt have won the fight. Luke wasnt having an easy time fighting Orca, BK and Luke are allies why wouldnt BK help him? Is he supposed to just stand there and let them duke it out? Im not arguing that Luke couldnt have lost the fight but BK helping Luke is not conclusive proof.

I can think of one instance were a depowered Superman was fighting some thugs and Batman came along to save him. Does the fact that Batman helped Superman mean he couldnt have taken them out on his own? Of course not but since Batman and Superman are allies and Superman was having some trouble Batman isn't just going to stand there and let Superman duke it out. Hell if I think hard enough i'll probably find more examples.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech

Yeah you talking about the same arc where punisher was able to choke out Tiger Shark [B]IN WATER you really wanna bring that up.[/B]

Yeah I'll bring that up. All that proves is that part of the comic was bad writing in your opinion but since the exact samething that happened with Kraven happened when he fought Paladin that proves that just because somebody is rocked by a one punch doesnt prove conclusively that a person can't win a fight.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech

Have you heard of the Thing the ability to have a good showing against someone stronger than you and the ability to beat them are two different things.

Its not that simple if a fight is inconclusive and two opponents are shown to do well against each other you can deduce that either would win.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech

Dont look at a fight completely ignore parts of it to make the person your debating for look good.

Please dont tell me what do. I simply stated to you that just because a person is rocked by one punch doesnt mean that the person rocked by the punch would have lost. Ive also backed that up with proof, for some reason you think thats bad. It also turns out I was justfied in thinking that Bks blast didnt do that much.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech

Ironclad my be a villain and villains in the end will always lose but when you can take a beating from a pissed off professor hulk and you cant take one punch from luke cage that's called bad writing.

Not really peoples feats vary. Cap has taken punches from Mr Hyde, Iron Man, Namor and others does that mean that its bad writing to get hurt by punches from Crossbones? No it doesnt what that means is that his showings vary. What we do is make an average instead of just decided what feats are bad writing.

The fact of the matter is that Luke Cage has proven that after his upgrade he can KO people that can take class 100 punches, the fact that you disagree is neither here nor there.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Not really peoples feats vary. Cap has taken punches from Mr Hyde, Iron Man, Namor and others does that mean that its bad writing to get hurt by punches from Crossbones? No it doesnt what that means is that his showings vary. What we do is make an average instead of just decided what feats are bad writing.

The fact of the matter is that Luke Cage has proven that after his upgrade he can KO people that can take class 100 punches, the fact that you disagree is neither here nor there.

So Cage can K.O. someone that can take class 100 ton punches???
So that means he hit's harder than someone with 100 ton strenght??