Malak and Kreia vs Dooku

Originally posted by Gideon
You're shifting the goalpost ala Nebaris and expecting me to tolerate it? Wrong.

I was even charitable to address my argument even though you made your contention first. That's over.

We're done. When you pull your head out of your ass, you can have someone private message me.

Except I retracted my contention that Malak was better than Dooku in force knowledge. My arguments involved Malak being superior in Dooku in dark side abilities, and Malak and Traya beating Dooku in an all out fight. You have yet to refute any of this, instead electing to claim that my "head is in my ass", which basically says "I don't want to refute anything nor back up my claims".

Don't worry Sexy, I've got your back.

*sends Gideon that private message*

Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me? The only being in the SW mythos that had access to Revan's sources is Revan. If you don't want to accept that, then we have to assume that Dooku has complete access to everything Sidious had in the time of RotS. Which would include all knowledge extracted from Revan's holocron...

Saber rape one of them while force raping the other. As he does with Anakin / Obi-Wan or Bulq / Tholme. Technically, he just has to get one of them out of the fight and then defeat the other. Impossible for Dooku, who seems to be quite the perfectionist when it comes down to direct confrontation? I don't think so.

Originally posted by The Awesomeness
Don't worry Sexy, I've got your back.

*sends Gideon that private message*

stfu noobaris. Enjoy the ban.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I seem to recall this was Traya's fighting style against the exile. I don't know if it was her default style but you haven't seen her fight in any other way.

Oh. Cool. You did somehow forget how she was owned by Sion with one strike, correct? You really think that Dooku will stand there and allow her to apply Telekinesis (lifting the swords) against him? You think that, even if she does so, Dooku will have much of a problem pwning the swords in the matter of seconds?

"One of the most powerful Jedi" means what exactly? Traya went down via lightsaber combat. The Exile was nothing compared to Traya via the force. What does Malak fighting Revan have to do with anyone's lightsaber abilities? I never claimed malak can defeat Dooku with a saber. Learn to read.

Excuse me. If the Exile was nothing in comparison to Traya, Traya should have owned her. Didn't happen,a s we all know.

And Malak also can't defeat Dooku with the force, which would be the only other way aside from using the saber. The SF powered Malak can't do the job and the usual Malak would most likely be a complete pushover for the guy who owned pretty much every single being in his own time, with the exceptions of Mace, Yoda and Sidious that opposed him directly.

See, spouting off crap like "one of the most powerful individuals" does nothing to prove your point. By your contention, Revan could beat Dooku because he's the "heart of the force". It means nothing.

Yeah, right. It would mean nothing, if we hadn't the nice definition of Yoda himself.

"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be!"

There you go.

Traya's knowledge with the force seems to exceed Dooku's. You doubt a force drain is capable against Dooku? Wow. He's going to hide his presence in the force while he fights Malak and Traya? That makes a lot of sense Nai.

Why not? If that is the only way to survive the "instakill" I would do that in Dooku's case. What are Traya and Malak going to do when Dooku attacks them with force lightning or his other offensive abilities. Die on the spot? Seems to be a nice suggestion.

What is Dooku going to do against Traya and Malak with the force? What's that? Nothing? Or is he going to kill them because he's "One of the most powerful beings in the saga"? Way to apply a meaningless argument.

Oh. You mean he couldn't f*ck them up with his abilities. Like Ventress, whom he almost killed by "popping her blood-vessels like balloons" - this while not even focusing on her and by doing nothing more than lifting his finger? You think he would be unable to force rape them like he did it with Anakin, Obi-Wan, Tholme, Bulq? Then I hope you can provide proof for Kreia and Malak having a force defence that exceed that of PT era Council Members.

Dooku shook the ceiling, threw some crapass lightning, and was a Jedi when jedi were taught to restrain there power more than any other time out of fear from things like 7th Ruusan and what happened at Yavin 4 with Exar Kun.

Malak is crap, I'll give you that, but seriously I doubt the Exile stayed average, remember he subconsciously leeched off others( the bonds) and we're not even sure if Traya was fighting to her fullest.

That and her knowledge on Korriban's secrets seem nearly unrivaled.

Srsly, the jedi and sith of the respective eras had vastly different philosophies about combat and battle, and most of the reason we don't see much saber skills is gameplay(srsly, in the sequel there was like no difference in the forms) and as far as the force goes Old Sith Wars era was like the PT era in saber skills if you think about it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh. Cool. You did somehow forget how she was owned by Sion with one strike, correct? You really think that Dooku will stand there and allow her to apply Telekinesis (lifting the swords) against him? You think that, even if she does so, Dooku will have much of a problem pwning the swords in the matter of seconds?

Oh. You mean he couldn't f*ck them up with his abilities. Like Ventress, whom he almost killed by "popping her blood-vessels like balloons" - this while not even focusing on her and by doing nothing more than lifting his finger? You think he would be unable to force rape them like he did it with Anakin, Obi-Wan, Tholme, Bulq? Then I hope you can provide proof for Kreia and Malak having a force defence that exceed that of PT era Council Members.

....

You think he would be unable to force rape them like he did it with Anakin, Obi-Wan, Tholme, Bulq? Then I hope you can provide proof for Kreia and Malak having a force defence that exceed that of PT era Council Members.

By the same token:

You think Traya would be unable to force rape Dooku like she did with Kavar, Vrook, and Zez-Kai Ell, simultaneously? Then I hope you can provide proof for Dooku having a force defence that exceeds that of 3 KotOR era High Council Members, combined.

Originally posted by The Awesomeness
....

By the same token:

You think Traya would be unable to force rape Dooku like she did with Kavar, Vrook, and Zez-Kai Ell, simultaneously? Then I hope you can provide proof for Dooku having a force defence that exceed that of 3 KotOR era High Council Members, combined.

Interesting. Good point Nebaris. You're still getting banned though.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You have no knowledge of what Dooku learned from Sidious. Prove what he learned.

Omg. You don't have an idea what Malak learned or what Traya learned. Despite of that, you claim that their abilities are superior to that of Count Dooku with - good god - nothing to base this claim on.

Here's the thing. I don't have to substantiate this claim. The fact that Revan plundered "underground cities of korriban full of holocrons and sith artifacts" is good enough, whereas you have nothing for Dooku.

You did notice the "Revan" in the sentence you wrote, yes? Revan is not Malak. And Revan is not Traya. Did you get that? So Malak has "whatever Revan liked to share with him" and Kreia has "whatever was left on Malachor V AFTER Revan plundered it". Yes. That sounds like a shitload of knowledge. Lmao.

The fact that all of these places gave Revan techniques that made Bane shit his pants is evidence enough. Your argument is hilarious. The fact that he gained knowledge and tangible items from there is fact, and enough. The fact that he gained more of that stuff from Korriban than Dooku or Sidious is also more logical than any other explanation. I don't have to prove what he gained because that isn't the argument.

The fact that your still attributing Malak with Revan's knowledge is the only "hilarious" thing here, Sexy. Obviously, Malak was so far behind Revan in terms of abilities, that he wasn't able to oppose Revan directly when the latter was still the Dark Lord. And hell. He still failed against Revan, when he was amped by the SF. So how in the blue hell, is Malak compareable to Revan in terms of knowledge and Dark side ability? Right. He isn't.

My contention was that Malak found more on Korriban that Dooku or Sidious did. I don't know what it is that you're arguing. But you would have to prove that Sidious found more than Malak on Korriban 4,000 years later.

Hello. Wake up, Sissy. Malak found nothing anywhere. It was Revan who did the job. The same Revan that did - obviously - hide his entire knowledge on Lehon and (whoopie) not share it with Malak. You know: Malak and Revan are still not the same person.

There's your problem. You'd take someone based on a quote, over 2 characters that had access to sith treasures during their hayday. Nor is there anything pointing to Dooku learning a great deal of sith techniques. So I'll take facts and logical inferences over a meaningless quote.

Yeah. Right. Once more: Dooku has enough Sith knowledge to pwn Asajj Ventress by lifting one finger. In fact, Dooku was obsessed with learning Dark Side lore from his youth on. In fact, he had access to multiple Sith holocrons.

And, of course, there is still the fact that: Neither Kreia nor Malak had access to any special Sith Lore whatsoveer because Revan did take anything away from their supposed knowledge sources.

Except Anakin and Obiwan aren't exactly comparable to Traya and Malak in terms of the force.

Urm? May I point it out for you one more time: All that Kreia has done was force raping three Jedi Masters with a technique that - at her time - there was no defence against. All that Malak has done was force stunning a non-force-user and Revan (surprise action), use some force lightning on Bastilla and some midiocre Jedi and use the SF powers to drain the Jedi he had captured before.

So, I may point this out once more: Two persons, who's major actions are performed against completely defenseless opponents and who then got pwned by people clearly not equipped with Dooku's knowledge, skills and abilities? Hmm.

Revan knew how to use Malachor V to forcibly convert every jedi(exile not included) to sith...permanently.

He learned how to use places strong in the darkside to his DIRECT advantage, coupled with shit that, as stated, made Bane think twice about using some of the knowledge(some of it he ignored entirely) out of fear of the consequences.

Yet, he thought that the Thought Bomb was SAFE ENOUGH TO USE in comparison with the other stuff.

Then again, Borby, unless you see what a 12-gauge shotgun does to someone's forehead(leaving the nose and mouth intact) while being press against their head and fired, you won't believe that said blast will kill them.

By the logic of "It must be shown for it to be possible and it must be shown for it to be canonical abilty" then you must have the brain of a toddler or a fundamentalist.

Seriously, if Bane thought that the freakin thought bomb was safe and okay compared to the other stuff, then what abominable knowledge did Revan truly posess?

Remember Kreia has EVEN MORE knowledge than Revan.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Omg. You don't have an idea what Malak learned or what Traya learned. Despite of that, you claim that their abilities are superior to that of Count Dooku with - good god - nothing to base this claim on.

You did notice the "Revan" in the sentence you wrote, yes? Revan is [b]not Malak. And Revan is not Traya. Did you get that? So Malak has "whatever Revan liked to share with him" and Kreia has "whatever was left on Malachor V AFTER Revan plundered it". Yes. That sounds like a shitload of knowledge. Lmao.

The fact that your still attributing Malak with Revan's knowledge is the only "hilarious" thing here, Sexy. Obviously, Malak was so far behind Revan in terms of abilities, that he wasn't able to oppose Revan directly when the latter was still the Dark Lord. And hell. He still failed against Revan, when he was amped by the SF. So how in the blue hell, is Malak compareable to Revan in terms of knowledge and Dark side ability? Right. He isn't.

Hello. Wake up, Sissy. Malak found nothing anywhere. It was Revan who did the job. The same Revan that did - obviously - hide his entire knowledge on Lehon and (whoopie) not share it with Malak. You know: Malak and Revan are still not the same person.

Yeah. Right. Once more: Dooku has enough Sith knowledge to pwn Asajj Ventress by lifting one finger. In fact, Dooku was obsessed with learning Dark Side lore from his youth on. In fact, he had access to multiple Sith holocrons.

And, of course, there is still the fact that: Neither Kreia nor Malak had access to any special Sith Lore whatsoveer because Revan did take anything away from their supposed knowledge sources.

Urm? May I point it out for you one more time: All that Kreia has done was force raping three Jedi Masters with a technique that - at her time - there was no defence against. All that Malak has done was force stunning a non-force-user and Revan (surprise action), use some force lightning on Bastilla and some midiocre Jedi and use the SF powers to drain the Jedi he had captured before.

So, I may point this out once more: Two persons, who's major actions are performed against completely defenseless opponents and who then got pwned by people clearly not equipped with Dooku's knowledge, skills and abilities? Hmm. [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You do realize that she had an agenda the whole time right? You do realize that Sion was still subservient to her throughout the entire game right? Do you really think Traya will let Dooku just attack her? I can use skewed logic all day. And yes, I think 3 of Traya's swords+1 of Dooku's swords=a problem for Dooku.

The 3 swords are just moving around in the air, apparently without performing any complex manouvers. Dooku would need three swings and be done with them. Nice infight their. That is, if he doesn't desite to just enter melee combat with Malak and shoot a barrage of force lightning at Traya, which will result in either her losing her concentration (attempting to defend herself from the force attack) or her being knocked out.

Have you ever played the game? If you have you know that Traya commanded the exile to kill her, and it was her every intention to die.

Being killed by a superior opponent. Otherwise their would be no need to fight the Exile at all...

Simply stating Malak can't defeat Dooku with the force doesn't make it so. Prove it. Stating SF powered malak can't do it doesn't make it so either. Not exactly an argument for Dooku. "Guy X can't do this and that because I say so, therefore Guy Y wins".

Excuse me: You are the one here that keeps talking about Malak's force super powers without presenting one single line of proof that he has any. By what we know, Dooku just has to be able to defend himself against lightning, telekinesis and a force drain (he can do all of that) to defeat Malak - SF Powered or not.

Really? What offensive abilities? Show me 1 thing Dooku knows that Traya and Malak don't. Force lightning? They know it. Force drain, he doesn't.

Did I already mention the "baloon popping blood vessels"?
Yeah. I could swear I did that. And Dooku doesn't know force drain? Well. He can just rip it out of their minds - because that is a technique he does know.

You're comparing Ventress with either of the two, which is laughable.
You're comparing Anakin and Obiwan's force abilities with Malak and Traya. That's laughable. Prove what force defense? What is dooku going to do to them exactly?>

Excuse me. I just have to lecture you once more: Malak is a Padawan who went out to war and then went Dark Side. Traya is a Librarian who went Darkside. Effecitively, you're dealing with Anakin Skywalker (Malak) and a Dark Side Jocasta Nu (Traya) here. On the other hand, you have one of the most resourceful Jedi Council Members (Kenobi), da Chosen One (Anakin) and a Dark Jedi that was a match for both of them in direct confrontation (Ventress). And you have Dooku, who force raped all three of them.

Face it: Malak and Kreia, while their displays seem to be quite nice, are just what they are: Some people that went Darkside for a brief period of time. Their major actions are performed against people without defense (force attacks) or in an amped state (SF Malak). Dooku, in turn, was obsessed with the Darkside since his youth (so...for more than 6 decades) and has been descriped as one of the most knowledgeable and most powerful force users around - even before he went to receive a decade of training by the person that is descriped as most knowledgeable and most powerful Sith Lord in history. And he performed his feats on equal footing with his opponents.

By the same token:

You think Traya would be unable to force rape Dooku like she did with Kavar, Vrook, and Zez-Kai Ell, simultaneously? Then I hope you can provide proof for Dooku having a force defence that exceeds that of 3 KotOR era High Council Members, combined.

What force defense?
May I remind you that Kreia owned them with a technique "against which their was no defense", hmm? If there was no defense against it, they couldn't put up any defense against it - meaning: Kreia owned three people that weren't able to put up any defense against her force attack. An attack Dooku can defend himself against. So, I'm sorry: YOU FAIL.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I know that they had more obvious access to sith artifacts. Traya knows a ridiculous force drain at the very LEAST. Unless you can show what Dooku knows that they don't, that's one in my favor.

How did "they" have more access to Sith artifacts? Dooku accessed two Sith Holocrons and had access to another one (through Sidious). How many Sith Holocrons did you see being used by Malak and Traya? Oh right. None.

And sorry. Blood vessel popping: Not known by them. Force lightning? Never used by Traya, thus probably not known to her. Qey'Tek - not known to either of those two. Force flight - not known to them. And so on, and so forth...

A shitload more than Dooku lmao. Not to mention at the very laest, she picked up the force drain on Malachor. Again, 1 for me.

Dooku was capable of ripping informations out of people's mind. And he can defend himself against that "force drain".

The fact that you claim Dooku has more darkside knowledge than these two without a single iota of proof is hilarious.

See above. He performs everything they could do, then the counter to the only ability they have that he - maybe - doesn't have, adding a shitload of other techniques (that they don't have). And this is just what Dooku demonstrated.

Malak still had access to Korriban. Dooku had access to what.. Oh that's right, you dont know, homo.

Wow. Malak had access to a planet that was plundered by Kun first and then by Revan later? I wonder how much knowledge would be there after the planet was plundered two times. Especially if you consider that the only one finding knowledge there in the times of Revan and Malak was - oh god - Revan again, who plundered the last tombs that he hadn't plundered when he was there for the first time. Yes. Sounds like a shitload of information was left there for Malak.

Especially when compared to the knowledge of Andeddu, training from Sidious and so on...

Explain to me how what Dooku did to Ventress even begins to equate to sith knowledge? You mean a force choke? WOW! Access to multiple holocrons? Aside from Andeddu's holocron that Vos stole, what else?

A force choke makes the blood-vessels in your lung "pop like balloons"? I didn't know that, Captain Smartass. The second Holocron would be the one that Dooku stole when he was a Padawan. The third one would be in Sidious possession that Dooku left some informations on.

Yes, Revan packed up the sources from the entire planet of Malachor V and took them in his ship. That sounds legitimate. Oh wait. Special sith lore? Again, during Revan and Malak's reign, they were still plundering Korriban. There's no evidence Dooku had anything special other than Andeddu's holocron.

Can I point it out once more:
Malachor V was a freaking training facility, installed by people that are known for not sharing their knowledge. Do you expect that you can find any priceless knowledge in Elementary School? Apparently, yes. Because this is what you're suggesting here.

And again: Their was no reign of "Revan AND Malak". Revan reigned. And he reigned so supreme that his own apprentice (Hint Malak) had to shoot him with a turbolaser and still failed to kill him with that. Then he returned with weeks of training and destroyed an SF powered Malak in a duel. Huh? Where are those two compareable in terms of knowledge and ability? I don't see it. In fact, all that I see seems to suggest that Revan is by far superior to his own apprentice.

There's no proof that there's a defense for it now Nai. What Kreia did far surpasses what Dooku has done.

It attacks one's presence in the force, as demonstrated when it fails against the Exile (who doesn't have such a present). Thus anybody able to mask his presence in the force can't be attacked with that ability - due to lack of a target...

ROFL. Right. The Council Masters Traya pwned were completely defenseless. Your argument gets more pathetic with each new excuse.

WTF? Kreia killed them with a technique "there was no defense against". By the very nature of the attack those Jedi Masters were defenseless. That's like me shooting you with a bullet and then state that I have "overpowered your bullet dodging abilities" - which weren't there in the first place.

Dooku's knowledge? What knowledge? What abilities? Oh that's right. Typical Nai argument. "I'm right because I say so, backing up arguments are for chumps!"

Typical Darth Sexy aka TDTD bitching and trolling. "I don't have an oppinion, I don't have an argument, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about - still I think that you suck. ROFLOLBBQ." Doesn't fly here, Dave. Next please.

Given Dooku apparently had access to the freaking Telos Holocron, AKA: THE single greatest Sith knowledge trove in existence, suffice to say he knows a bit. Quinlan Vos also noted Dooku was 'proficient' with Sith Holocrons like Andeddu's as he'd accessed them before.

Unless Palpatine personally added Dooku's knowledge there like Bane did with Revan and presumably Qordis, then...

Originally posted by Borbarad
How did "they" have more access to Sith artifacts? Dooku accessed two Sith Holocrons and had access to another one (through Sidious). How many Sith Holocrons did you see being used by Malak and Traya? Oh right. None.

Typical Darth Sexy aka TDTD bitching and trolling. "I don't have an oppinion, I don't have an argument, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about - still I think that you suck. ROFLOLBBQ." Doesn't fly here, Dave. Next please.

Rofl. Typical Nai. When his argument doesn't fly, he projects his incompetence and bitching on other people. If that's not enough, he makes more baseless accusations. Way to go Nai, you've proven once and for all the stupidity of people that let emotions get in the way of an argument 😂 here you go Nai

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Given Dooku apparently had access to the freaking Telos Holocron, AKA: THE single greatest Sith knowledge trove in existence, suffice to say he knows a bit. Quinlan Vos also noted Dooku was 'proficient' with Sith Holocrons like Andeddu's as he'd accessed them before.

Unless Palpatine personally added Dooku's knowledge there like Bane did with Revan and presumably Qordis, then...

From what I've seen of Borby ans to a certain extent Escape, they don't have intuitive reasoning or theoretical deduction skills any greater than a child's. Granted, this obscured by intelligence and simple logic,keyword simple, but all the same. These are the type of people who didn't believe that a dog wouldn't nurse a kitten because it hadn't been shown everywhere, but we all know now don't we.

Guys like this simply cannot fathom that the Kotor era Jedi were superior in any way simply because we have only seen gamplay.

Basically, they think that because Malak has shown what his lightsaber really were they assume that he sucked balls or was average.

Yeah, Gideon's a dumbass. Nai even moreso.

It's not like their arguments just fly right over your head or anything.