Originally posted by Scythe
So I've started actively participating in SF 4 tourneys down here in So. Cal. Oh my god! It's begun! The stupidity!! I've been to four tourneys already that don't allow Ultras, they say it makes things fair. I tried arguing with them, but I can't win in an entire store full of mules and jackasses.
Ultras are fair. They are just being childish.
Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
the ultras are fair.. you just have to know which ones are crap and which are good
Originally posted by Zack Fair
Ultras are fair. They are just being childish.
That's my f*ckin' argument, but they've chosen to look past it. I just gave up. My patience was extremely pushed when I let loose an Ultra with Ryu that took out my opponent, only to hear that it didn't count cuz at the last minute Ultras were allowed, but then they were taken out at the last second. That's some mo' bullshit right there. I left.
Before I begin, I must say this. I switched the order of your post around a bit. I only want to address this small points first, so we may lay them to rest. There significance dwindles with each post. The last part touches on two key things. First, I'll demonstrate to you that Yun, Ken, and Chun Li are in the fact the top characters at the highest level of play. Second, I'll shed some light on this “unbalanced” thing. Specifically, I'll speak of your possibly skewed view of 3rd Strike or the word “unbalance” itself.
...Bear with me. Hopefully, we can reach an understanding.
Originally posted by I am who I am
I'm sayin' cuz Gill is the boss he is better. The bosses usually are. Cuz you can't pick Gill unless you have the home version I think the balance is really good. And Gill is not unstoppable, cuz of his Resurrection you can get grades like MSF+ on the guy.
Can we drop this now? It appears you understand my point. What you said there is not wrong, but we are not discussing why he is good or how to get MSF+. This is a waste of page space now.
Originally posted by I am who I am
And as for the Ken VS Sean scenario. Ken can deal more damage easier, yes, But the match is not all about damage and I'm glad you used Sean cuz that's my ace in the whole.
1. 2 of Sean's super gauges are smaller than Ken's. Sean's Shoryu-Canon and Hyper Tornado do as much damage as a Shinryuken and dwarfs all of Ken's other.
2. Ken has almost no defensive game, Sean is all defense, it is even stated that compared to Ken, Sean, and I quote is "unbeatable at mid-range". Sean can literally slow the match and grab the hell outta Ken with Sean Tackles er time Ken misses a move cuz his recovery is not that great..
3. Now yes, most of Seans other moves except Dargon Smash are far less useful then Ken's but unlike ken, "Sean shines through with EXs". Kens EXs are just beefed up versions of his regular specials, Sean's on the other hand serve completely different purposes that make his moves far less risky.
Originally posted by I am who I am
And o'course Arcana Heart FULL is more balanced than 3rd Strike (still sucks compared to 3rd Strike and most other fighters. It is THE BALANCED VERSION of a HORRIBLY unbalanced game. Like SFII CE and Super SFII Turbo, you can fix a game when you remake it. Saki VS Heart scenario is not THAT much better than the Ken VS Sean. Ken VS Sean is not that bad, in the SFEC they actually compare the 2 purposely. Sean in not THAT bad a character. True he's harder to learn and use effectively but Sean won't be stomped by anyone. You took 2 good characters in AH (The Ryu and Ken of AH) and compared it to the top tier characters of 3rd Strike VS the Joke character of 3rd Strike. That doesn't make sense. It would have been better to use Ryu and Ken to compare to a Ryu and Ken of another game, you see.I can think of some bad match ups from AH like Konoha VS Kira and compare it to a good match up in 3rd Strike like Yun VS Chun Li.
I used Heart and Saki because they are the only characters in Arcana Heart that actually fight in a similar manner. I used an example of a balanced game wherein a lower tier character, Saki, with a similar play style to a higher tier character, Heart, is still quite viable at any level of competition. If 3rd Strike was as balanced as you claim, comparing Ken to Sean should create an image close to that of Heart and Saki.
Originally posted by I am who I am
The game is not "unbalanced' if some characters are easier to use. Every FG has a tier list. Ken, Chun Li, and Yun are not unbeatable, they are just the easiest for noobs to win with. That doesn't make them unbalanced. You spoke up 3rd Strike like it was horribly unbalanced. Anyone can win wit anyone was my point. And the top 3 characters peeps ACTUALLY use to win is Urien, Chun Li, and Akuma and If you want, I can show why. Unbalanced is when some characters in a game can easily beat any other character in the game. Not when the top 3 characters are easier to use and deal more damage then the others when casuals play the game. Ken, Chun Li, and Yun are top tier, not unbalanced. A skilled Ken wont easily if not at all smash as skilled Sean.
As for the “noobs” using Ken, Chun Li and Yun, you are quite mistaken. I specifically stated that at the highest levels of gameplay, these three dominate. This is not up for debate. If you don't want to take my word for it, here are the results of SBO and Evolution tournaments. As you probably know, these are the two most important fighting game tournaments. The absolute top players are in large part determined by the people who win these. Just because I love you so much, I gathered the results up for the 3rd Strike tournaments since SBO 2003 and Evolution 2005. We'll start with Evolution. *I couldn't get these lists laid out the way I wanted them on here, so I attached them as a Word Document. *
Initially, I planned only to gather to top three from each year. I felt I'd even try and help you out by listing the top 8. I'd count all the occurrences of the top three, but I feel it's obvious here. I'd also like to that in 2004, KO did use Makoto in some of his matches. In the Grand Finals, he stuck to Yun though. The big three dominate the charts here. As I said it's not impossible to win with other characters, but you usually only 1 or 2 upper tier characters like Makoto or Dudley make it to the top 8 each year. Next will be SBO. Due to the difficulty of finding the full list since SBO is in Japan, I only did the first place teams for each year.*Again, it's in the document.*
As you can see, it's the same deal here. Last year saw an Akuma which is refreshing, but by and large, the 3rd Strike Tribunal dominate. As a matter of fact, I do believe that a Ken, Yun, or Chun Li has always won Evolution and been present in the winning team at SBO. It's not just "noobs" who use them. Heck, I've played Justin Wong. Even though I played him at Arcana Heart, I can tell you he is definitely anything but a "noob."
On the other hand, a Lilica Felchenerow player won SBO 08 in Arcana Heart 2. Yep, a mid tier character won SBO. In fact, Yoriko, the Chun Li/Yun of pre-Suggoi! Arcana Heart 2, did not even make it to the finals. That sounds a lot more like balance to me than the 3rd Strike results.
Finally, I'd like to address this “unbalanced” thing. You readily admit, as do I, that pre-FULL Arcana Heart is unbalanced, yet you maintain that 3rd Strike is not. Even though both games suffered from the same God Trio problem, you take issue with 3rd Strike being called on it. What affinity holds you from saying it is unbalanced? You've mentioned synonyms for it. You've even described the game in ways that suggests imbalance. What's so wrong with just saying it?
I hope I did not sound condescending or confrontational anywhere in my post. I seek only to inform. I must ask something though. Can you really not see why the game is accused being imbalanced? The evidence for it is really overwhelming. Last year, there were five Chun Li players in the top 8 of Evolution.
In any case, you're not wrong on everything. Sean does have some anti-Ken strategies. Urien and Akuma do have some good things going for them. This Chun Li, Ken, and Yun thing though? There's really nothing to debate. They dominate at the highest levels as shown time and time again.
Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
- lol.. speaking of game balance.. what do you think of the balance in SFIV? 😎- yeah.. sakurai had a "wryyyyyyyyy!!!!" moment when he found out melee was played in tournaments, and then concocted brawl to be his tourney-damning test tube baby
Originally posted by Scythe
That's my f*ckin' argument, but they've chosen to look past it. I just gave up. My patience was extremely pushed when I let loose an Ultra with Ryu that took out my opponent, only to hear that it didn't count cuz at the last minute Ultras were allowed, but then they were taken out at the last second. That's some mo' bullshit right there. I left.
I am who I am, I couldn't attach this file to my last post so I had to host it. Here's the link that corresponds to the stuff from my post.
Seth, Gouken and Gouki do not deserve a ban. The only one who might be debatable is Gouken, and that remains to be seen.
Gouki&Seth have the severe stamina deficit to make up for their extreme power. Not to mention the SGS is harder to use in this game, and Seth's Tanden Storm doens't actually do that much damage in comparison to other ultras.
I also strongly believe Seth's shoryuken does not have fireball immunity.
Originally posted by StyleTime
Before I begin, I must say this. I switched the order of your post around a bit. I only want to address this small points first, so we may lay them to rest. There significance dwindles with each post. The last part touches on two key things. First, I'll demonstrate to you that Yun, Ken, and Chun Li are in the fact the top characters at the highest level of play. Second, I'll shed some light on this “unbalanced” thing. Specifically, I'll speak of your possibly skewed view of 3rd Strike or the word “unbalance” itself....Bear with me. Hopefully, we can reach an understanding.
This really is becoming quite irrelevant. You even seem to realize this since you no longer assert it. A character does not get banned because he is the “boss.” Using that logic would look similar to this:
Player 1: I think Gill should be banned from competitive play.
Player 2: Why's that my good sir?
Player 1: Well, he's the boss.
Player 2: Well, you're an idiot. *stabs Player 1 and steals his console*Can we drop this now? It appears you understand my point. What you said there is not wrong, but we are not discussing why he is good or how to get MSF+. This is a waste of page space now.
I did not refer to a Ken vs Sean scenario when last I mentioned them. I meant how well Ken matches up against the rest of the cast when compared to Sean. Mentioning the few strategies Sean has when facing Ken does not negate Ken's superiority. Sean would have to depend much more on Ken making mistakes. Ken would not have to simply wait for Sean to mess up.
Firstly, Arcana Heart is better than Street Fighter. Secondly, the patch matters very little here. Konoha, Kamui, and Kira dominated the game just like Yun, Chun Li, and Ken in 3rd Strike. Examu remedied their mistake. Capcom did not. It does not change that Arcana Heart is still more balanced now.
I used Heart and Saki because they are the only characters in Arcana Heart that actually fight in a similar manner. I used an example of a balanced game wherein a lower tier character, Saki, with a similar play style to a higher tier character, Heart, is still quite viable at any level of competition. If 3rd Strike was as balanced as you claim, comparing Ken to Sean should create an image close to that of Heart and Saki.
You misunderstand me when I said “easier.” The big three are not necessarily easy in execution. I mean they have either more or better tools at any given instance than their fellow combatants. That is what makes them good. That is to what a tier list generally refers.
As for the “noobs” using Ken, Chun Li and Yun, you are quite mistaken. I specifically stated that at the [b]highest
levels of gameplay, these three dominate. This is not up for debate. If you don't want to take my word for it, here are the results of SBO and Evolution tournaments. As you probably know, these are the two most important fighting game tournaments. The absolute top players are in large part determined by the people who win these. Just because I love you so much, I gathered the results up for the 3rd Strike tournaments since SBO 2003 and Evolution 2005. We'll start with Evolution. *I couldn't get these lists laid out the way I wanted them on here, so I attached them as a Word Document. *Initially, I planned only to gather to top three from each year. I felt I'd even try and help you out by listing the top 8. I'd count all the occurrences of the top three, but I feel it's obvious here. I'd also like to that in 2004, KO did use Makoto in some of his matches. In the Grand Finals, he stuck to Yun though. The big three dominate the charts here. As I said it's not impossible to win with other characters, but you usually only 1 or 2 upper tier characters like Makoto or Dudley make it to the top 8 each year. Next will be SBO. Due to the difficulty of finding the full list since SBO is in Japan, I only did the first place teams for each year.*Again, it's in the document.*
As you can see, it's the same deal here. Last year saw an Akuma which is refreshing, but by and large, the 3rd Strike Tribunal dominate. As a matter of fact, I do believe that a Ken, Yun, or Chun Li has always won Evolution and been present in the winning team at SBO. It's not just "noobs" who use them. Heck, I've played Justin Wong. Even though I played him at Arcana Heart, I can tell you he is definitely anything but a "noob."
On the other hand, a Lilica Felchenerow player won SBO 08 in Arcana Heart 2. Yep, a mid tier character won SBO. In fact, Yoriko, the Chun Li/Yun of pre-Suggoi! Arcana Heart 2, did not even make it to the finals. That sounds a lot more like balance to me than the 3rd Strike results.
Finally, I'd like to address this “unbalanced” thing. You readily admit, as do I, that pre-FULL Arcana Heart is unbalanced, yet you maintain that 3rd Strike is not. Even though both games suffered from the same God Trio problem, you take issue with 3rd Strike being called on it. What affinity holds you from saying it is unbalanced? You've mentioned synonyms for it. You've even described the game in ways that suggests imbalance. What's so wrong with just saying it?
I hope I did not sound condescending or confrontational anywhere in my post. I seek only to inform. I must ask something though. Can you really not see why the game is accused being imbalanced? The evidence for it is really overwhelming. Last year, there were five Chun Li players in the top 8 of Evolution.
In any case, you're not wrong on everything. Sean does have some anti-Ken strategies. Urien and Akuma do have some good things going for them. This Chun Li, Ken, and Yun thing though? There's really nothing to debate. They dominate at the highest levels as shown time and time again. [/B]
Dude...that is a WHOLE LOT of words to post and most of it is a waste cuz I see you completely miss the points. I will make this simple and sweet and then I am done...
I DO NOT mean that cuz Gill is the boss that's why he is illegal. Simply put. You used Gill as an excuse as to why 3rd Strike is unbalanced. I said Gill doesn't count, that's not a valid excuse. You can not pick him at the arcade, at tourneys, or on Live. I simply said that he was like most other bosses from most other fightin' games. He is super powered purposely thus you can't even pick him even if you wanted to. That's all I'm sayin'. I hope you can wrap your head around that.
Yes Ken is better than Sean but not as horribly as you make it sound. It's not Servebot VS Cable in MVC2. That is my point. That's all I'm sayin'.
To be honest I don't care if you think AH is better than SF. I don't and we all have our opinions. I'm not gonna go on about AH cuz just knowin' about that game as a young man makes me sound like a weirdo. But that's just ME.
So what that AH is more balanced than SFIII cuz they made the game more times. It takes more than EXTREME balance to make a good game. Sean and Ken aint the BEST match up but it aint a stomp for anybody if they are at similar skill levels. Do you get me?
OMG, we know Ken and the gang are a cut above the rest, but not enough to call the game "Unbalanced". Er game has a tier list. You make it sound like, if a game has a tier list then it's unbalanced. You can't have complete balance and a tier list at the same time. SFIII is not the most balanced fighter ever, but it's not so unbalanced that it's worth mentioning like you did. If it were it wouldn't be so big er EVO tourney, Even after 10yrs.
As for the rest of that shit you posted, which I don't get what your tryin' to show me (you say somthin like a word document). I NEVER SAID those 3 were not at the top. The best players in the world are pickin' the highest tiered characters o'course. But you are makin' it sound like they are the ONLY ONES ALL THE TIME. Other good players use other characters. Some of those guys have won more than once and I have been a member at Shoryuken.com (i already know ALL results for ALL tourneys so there is nothin you can show me about my favorite fightin' game that I don't already know) for along time and many of us say it still hearkens back to peeps seein' the best fighter win wit certain characters and then others pick'em cuz they think they are the best.
All and all no game is perfectly balanced but you are puttin' 3rd Strike in a MVC2 category. And I'm tellin' you that it aint that bad. I hope this clears things up.
Originally posted by I am who I amI hated that! Once Capcom said that Chun Li, Yun, and Ken were the highest on the list. Everyone started selecting them. And it didn't help that the winners decided 2 B-come good with them either. I'm glad regular people who Rn't so obsessed with high lvl play decide 2 choose other characters.
it still hearkens back to peeps seein' the best fighter win wit certain characters and then others pick'em cuz they think they are the best.
So, on topic, what do U think, MK VS DC or SF4.
It's psychological and U got far with it. Every body thinx that people who choose Ken R "auto" scrubs. And u play like it 2........4 the 1st round. U get them set N2 a habbit that is hard 2 break, then U sho yur real skill and fight hard and fast so that they can't get used 2 the real U N the 3 rounds left. I new sumthing was up win you didn't block or u sat back and bloked everything, U didn't dash, focus, or cancel. Then U jumped N most of the time with fierce punches. Sum how U dragged the matches out, tho. That strategy shows your weak win it comes 2 the game itself. Which is Y U only won 4 matches. More than what I thought U wood.
Originally posted by StyleTime
Yeah, I haven't heard of anything acually banned in tournament play yet. There was some misinformation given out at a tournament near me and they banned Seth, Gouken, and Akuma, but that was fixed before the event.
Shouldn't be any bans at all of any kind. It's a solid game. People just need an excuse for their mediocre skills.
No character in SF4 needs to be banned.
All of them are balanced, and it's agreed that Sagat is still the best character.
Akuma has beastly offense and run away, but has really low health and a shitty Ultra.
Gouken has a lot of shit but has no solid anti-air and can't do shit after jabs.
Seth has all these moves and really good run away, but has the lowest health in the game and he does shitty damage.
Also that Arcana being better than SF comment was pretty hilarious.
I live in NY where we have/had the biggest Arcana scene. I saw a lot of high level play and even the players didn't enjoy it much.