Most Powerful

Originally posted by Mr Master

Anyhow,
Galactus is replying to Phoenix after she claimed to be the embodiment of life,
Galactus clearly told her WRONG!!!

"Your an expression of the universal life force, NOT a well spring"

***

You also forgot the part where Phoenix herself states she is sustained by Life's cycle,
that means that her power/existence (even in its Natural State as Galactus points out)
is dependent upon living creatures.

LOL!

No wonder the Phoenix Force's own bio states:

(excerpt from the official Marvel Handbook - Phoenix Force - bio 2005)

"The PF is a manifestation of the prime universal life force [b]of life!
derived from the psyches of all living beings" [/B]

I really should have dealt with this misinterpretation a long time ago, however I’m an extremely lazy person who just doesn’t care enough.

But that laziness was outweighed by the big smile to my face that making you look silly would result in.

Ok here we go.

If I took a drop of water from a bath tub and put it in a bowl, it would still be called water, regardless of its comparative size to its source.

People are under the impression that the firebird that the Phoenix Force manifests as, is the sum total of the Phoenix Force. It isn’t, it is a manifestation of the Force within reality. An avatar:

“Feron called on the Phoenix avatar”

Regardless of whether this is the full Force or not, it can and is usually referred to as the Phoenix Force. Because that’s what it is.

You even saw this with X-men Phoenix Endsong and Warsong. Despite clearly illustrating and stating that the Phoenix featured was incomplete and mere shards of the Phoenix Force, the shards individually were still referred to as the Phoenix Force.

Rachel was inhabited by an avatar of the Phoenix Force as revealed in Excalibur #50:

“The cosmic avatar she hosts”

In Excalibur #61 the issue where the Phoenix stomps Galactus, it clearly states that Rachel is possessed by AN AVATAR:

“Cocooned in the healing embrace of the Phoenix Force…..this Celestial Avatar”

Not the full Phoenix Force, a representation of it.

During the battle with the Phoenix Force Galactus reminds the avatar that it is but an “expression of the universal life force” that various sources tell us is the Phoenix Force, not the well spring itself. It is after all a representation of the Force within reality:

Galactus goes on to talk of the nature of reality and how the Big Bang is the sum of all energy that ever was and ever will be in the universe and how everything within reality is dependant on these energies. Life feeds on life.

The avatar maintains that it is sustained by the energies of life. As the avatar of the Force it can obviously tap into these. However Galactus states that maybe in its natural form as the ambient energies of life the cycle could power its activities, however the fact that the avatar took sentience within this reality meant that it had become a life form itself and was therefore burning through life energy that could fuel future generations. Life feeds on life.

That is the very reason why in Excalibur#64 the Phoenix avatar gave up its sentience whilst warning Rachel to use only the power it gave her and not to tap further into the ambient energies of life unborn:

The Phoenix also makes the point of saying it is of creation and also beyond. All that it is is not contained within reality.

As stated in the very same issue, it was an avatar of the Phoenix he spoke to. It was an avatar that possessed Rachel. He said this avatar is an expression of the universal life force. The Phoenix Force has been called the life force of reality, the prime universal force of life and the energies of creation. My interpretation ties everything together Mr Master.

Yours means that humans power stars that existed billions of years before they did. Stars that they themselves need to exist. Doesn’t make sense does it mate? 😬

Dear....

Is this feud STILL not done with? 😐

Originally posted by Mr Master

[b]derived from the psyches of all living beings[/i]" [/B]

If your approach wasn’t so biased, if you weren’t only here to demean the character and you actually bothered to do your research, then this reference would be clear to you.

The Phoenix Force depiction in comics is based on various religious principles, most notably Kabala.

As revealed in Classic X-men, the Phoenix Force communicates with life on this plane of existence via their psyches:

PF: “My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive from you”

JG: “Oh great so you’re a figment of my imagination?”

PF: “You jest, yet what is imagination save the ability to conceive of that which is beyond reality”

That is why the Phoenix manifests most powerfully via those with psychic potential. Its form can only be perceived via the psyche. The Phoenix’s Consciousness exists beyond reality,(as we saw in New X-men) so the psyche is a gateway for it to communicate with those within reality.

Further to this point, Jeans Phoenix connection was temporarily cut off with a psychic attack to her Crown Chakra:

It is an energy transmitter and receptor that connects the mind with higher powers which are otherwise beyond ones ability to perceive. Look it up.

Predictably you interpreted that statement in some way to negatively represent the character. The statement is nothing, simply refers to Phoenix being beyond reality and communicating with this plane of existence via the gateway that the psyche provides.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Meh,
Same official Handbook tells us Phoenix is nothing but another child of the Universe,
not it's creator,
or anything even alluding to such a ridiculous statement.

"The Phoenix Force [b]is a child of the Universe"

~yawn~

Nice, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Phoenix.

Nice try. [/B]

The Phoenix Force as we know it is a child of universe, a representation of the life energies of the universe. We don’t get to know the formless energies which are threaded through reality. We don’t get to know the Phoenix that is beyond reality as stated. All we ever have interaction with is the Phoenix Force avatar, an expression of the energies of creation:

An avatar that is apparently “a flame from the furnace of the Big Bang” I wonder what that means for the power its representing? 😖hifty:

Originally posted by Mr Master
Correction, the Phoenix Force was inadvertently being erased by Galactus,
not just separated from Rachel,
by trying to separate the two, he was killing the two,
nice try on the ever present downplay when necessary.

Where was that point stated?

This is yet more of your self serving logic and biased interpretation.

Galactus said that the machine was going to remove the Force from Rachel and return it to the cosmos:

”The instrument will liberate the Phoenix from the physicality of its fleshly casement and return it to the cosmos..”

You therefore have no justification to credibly say the machine was doing otherwise.

Bios from the time also refer to how it was Rachel (Phoenix II) who was at risk of being destroyed; no mention is made of the Phoenix Force. That is just how you have conveniently chosen to interpret it:

Given that its canon that the Phoenix Force cannot be destroyed whether you believe that was the case back then or not you have no option but to accept the fact that Galactus could not destroy the Phoenix even if he tried. So your interpretation is wrong, not only by current continuity, but going by that early 90’s bio it would have been wrong back then as well. I will not respond to any more posts on this matter.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That aside,
I already agreed that the Phoenix Force is the sustenance of the stars,
but we also found out
that the Phoenix Force itself is sustained by the same life it sustains
therefore, if living beings die, Phoenix dies.

If you agree that the stars energy comes from Phoenix then you can’t be selective in what you acknowledge that entails. Stars provide the ambient energy of the universe in Marvel as verified by multiple sources. Matter from stars forms planets and other astronomical structures throughout the universe. Its as simple as that.

I’ve illustrated previously how you misinterpreted that Excalibur scene. I won’t comment on any subsequent ill informed comments that result from that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's unfortunate for Phoenix,
there are many characters in the Marvel Unverse
with their own self sustained Universes where they are omnipotent,
again, like post-retcon Beyonder.

Eternity/Living Tribunal tell post-recton Beyonder:

"retain your Omnipotent position withIN [b]your own Universe"

*** Indeed:

Beyonder:

"I can create billions of Life Forms with but a thought"

Next.

NOT all life my friend, that's what you've always missed. [/B]

As I said before, does the fact that other characters can make their own universes that also don’t feature the abstracts speak badly for them? So why are you selectively trying to make it a negative point for Phoenix?

These other pocket dimensions are comparatively insignificant so your point falls flat. 🙁

Originally posted by Mr Master
😆

That's a bunch of crap,
if that were true, I could name you 15 characters right now
that would fit your definition of being the "source of all energy in the universe."

Stars are created with a thought by many characters,
are they all the source of all energy in the universe too?

Get that 70's interpretation out of here dogs. 👇

Why? Because it doesnt favour your opinion? Not good enough im afraid. The point matches up with real world science and on top of that comments from the likes of Kubik support it. The point still stands.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, according to the Hulk, he is the strongest one there is. 😂

Please, Phoenix hyperbolizing about herself, on top of that,
that's an Alternate Reality. 👇

Nice try ... Fail again.

Phoenix, Galactus. Kubik, Reed Richards and the Handbook says it. Its official. Your opinion in the face of that amounts to not a thing.

Originally posted by Mr Master
No where in the Excalibur scan does it state Phoenix is the Big Bang turned sentient.

I don't wanna accuse you of lying,
but how many more times are ya gonna claim this?

The bio states, Phoenix was "re-born from the Fires of the Big Bang"

"Reborn from the fires of the Big Bang" ...

I’ve explained this previously. The scan shows the Big Bang event in Phoenixes memories and then it shows those energies eventually gaining sentience. It’s quite clear.

These memories support all of the various scans I’ve posted in addition. Scans of Reed saying Phoenix is the Big Bang, scans calling the Phoenix avatar a flame from the Big Bang. You have not proved the scans wrong; you have just given an unsupported opinion and then shown a scan saying the energies of creation lay within Eternity. Errrr yeah that’s because he’s the universe.

Originally posted by Mr Master

and the Alien Entity created and held the "Spark" that set all that off in his hand,
LOL ... before even Phoenix was re-born.

Alien Entity is badass. ✅

Nope. As stated multiple times in the story arc the Alien Entity was just the trigger. Your biased interpretation will get you nowhere.

Originally posted by Mr Master
To sum it,
let's see where you lied,
and where you told the truth:

1. "The Phoenix was reborn into reality in the Big Bang"

True, like everything else.

2. The Big Bang. It is those energies turned sentient."

False, Phoenix has never even created a Galaxy.

3. "The “Mother of the stars"

False. No credible evidence to support that nonsense.

4. "life force of reality”

False. The life-force of Reality is Eternity/Infinity who make up space & time,
Phoenix operates withIN Eternity/Infinity,
and like the Phoenix Force's bio illuminates, Phoenix is nothing but a child of Eternity/Infinity.

5. “sum and substance of all that lives”

Bull shit ...

6. "To remove the Force from Rachel,
the Watcher said the result could be ultimate extinction for reality."

2) This is clearly illustrated in Excalibur 52 and my interpretation is supported by numerous other sources. You do not have a single piece of official evidence that states that Phoenix is NOT the Big Bang. You just have vaguely related scans which you have chosen to interpret in a way that serves your opinion.

3) You’re all over the place. So you agree that Phoenix is the power behind the stars throughout your posts and yet at the end claim that there is no evidence to say she is their creator? 😕

4) The Phoenix operates both within and without Eternity. Eternity as per current continuity is the embodiment of all along the chronal axis. He is the physical universe. Phoenix as stated by various sources is the life energy of the universe.

5) If you agree that the stars derive from Phoenix then you must agree with that quote. The energy and matter of the universe within the comics derives from stars and I have shown that to be the case.

6) You have no backing to argue against this point. I’ll leave it at that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
False, Watcher never said extinction for Reality, he said for life,
and again, we already know this pertains to living creatures,
not self sustained cosmic powers.

I make of it what it is ... 100% Bull shit

Really? Because I could swear he said does Galactus wish to condemn “The COSMOS to ultimate extinction”?

And I’m lying? Why do you bother? 😬

Originally posted by Mr Master
Classic GS in the house, mixing truth and fallacy.

"Universal life force of Life" ... NOT Reality!

Same 2008 bio.

Fail.

That it's the same ol' same ol'?

Indeed.

Perhaps it can, and perhaps one day we'll see that hyperbole realized,
but until then, it's just hyperbole which has been dis-proven On Panel.

hysterical

That's an Alternate Reality [b]that diverged from 616!

So how the hell do you wanna place this as the Previous Universe of the Infinity Being?

LOL!

And the Mkraan Crystal ONLY destroyed that ONE Alternate Reality in the story btw. 😂
(so On Panel it's officially a Universal power ... nothing more)

I could care less about any speculative opinions outside of On Panel evidence. [/B]

What you choose to acknowledge personally is of no relevance here. We debate according to canon. Officially current continuity is that the previous multiverse was destroyed and remade by the M'kraan crystal.

Bios of this are the most recent and current description of what is officially the origin of Marvel.

You can believe what you wish, however when youre debating on these forums please dont waste mine or anyone elses by spreading your shit like it means something. 😱

Here is the word of the handbook writers.

Fantastic Four
Galactus Galactus is also credited as consuming the home of the Luphomoids.
Due to the extensive trimming required, the entry appears to indicate that the Phoenix is the force that saved Galan. While the information as stated is not wrong, the conclusion it seems to guide to is not quite accurate. The original entry as written was over twice the allowed length, and had to be heavily trimmed. The intent of the sentence was lost in the trimming process. It would be more accurate to say:
As the previous universe met its end, the Phoenix Force harnessed the positive emotions of everyone in the cosmos to save them from eternal damnation, enabling the sentience of the universe join with Galan and allow him to survive into the next reality.

To clarify further:

Nothing is said about whether the Phoenix force petitioned the sentience of the universe or not. One might infer that, if one chose to.
1) The universe was being destroyed, and all existence was falling into the hands of demonic forces.
2) The Phoenix Force harnessed the positive emotions to save all existence from this fate
3) The next thing shown is Galan plunging into the the fiery cauldron of the cosmos, and the sentience of the universe spoke to him.

The implications/significance are (at least) twofold:
1) The Phoenix Force existed in a previous incarnation in the reality before the current one.
2) Galan would likely have fallen into the hands of the dark forces and never had the chance to become Galactus if not for the Phoenix Force

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People have argued that the statements about the Phoenix are from an alternate reality. That is one interpretation, certainly, but the official interpretation is that it is the reality that existed before the current multiverse.

Phoenix harnessed all of the positive emotions of everyone in the universe to save all of its inhabitants from eternal damnation, enabling the sentience of the universe join with Galan of Taa and allow him to survive the destruction of the universe, and to ultimately become Galactus in that Universe. So, the implication is that the events of that series took place in the universe before the current one.
During this conflict, the Living Tribunal is seen to be holding the Two Brothers in the palm of his hand, as he goes to consult with his "hooded, spectral ally" (clearly the Spectre). As the old universe is destroyed, the Tribunal releases the Brothers to "assume their pre-destined roles as architects of new realities."
So, while the Adventures of the X-Men might not be seen as official canon under other circumstances, the book was written by Ralph Macchio, with the assistance of Mike Carlin, indicating that both Marvel and DC were involved in this explanation. Their intentions seem quite clear and there is no information to dispute this.

The M'Kraan Crystal is a nexus of realities. Destruction of the crystal destroyed the multiverse, effectively ending all realities and starting a new multiverse. The activities that occur in that issue are the very last in any reality.

The M'Kraan Crystal's destruction of the universe manifested itself as a radiation plague that moved from the Milky Way and/or Shi'ar Galaxy outward, closing in on Taa last. Since it can alter reality, it could have created this plague retroactively.

The Living Tribunal is also unique in the multiverse, so this is THE Living Tribunal acting, not some counterpart.

The Phoenix dies only to be reborn again. It was re-created at the Big Bang. The Phoenix Force saved everyone in the universe from eternal damnation, which made it possible for Galan to still be around to be saved by Eternity/the sentience of the universe. Galan would not have even been remotely aware of the Phoenix Force's involvement, and the Phoenix Force likely would not have recognized Galactus as the former Galan. Plus, some 15 billion years passed, so memories may be a little rusty.

There is nothing that actually states it to be an alternate reality, and there is no evidence that suggests that there was not an Earth in the previous universe.

This information is not even new. It has a precedent in the Fantastic Four Encyclopedia, and both times the information was approved by Tom Brevoort.

Others have commented on the Spectre. I am not an expert on DC, so I can't argue that, but I don't need to. There was "a" Spectre present as representative of the DC Multiverse. Who exactly he was and how he got there is beyond the scope of Marvel Handbooks.

Please bear in mind that the handbooks of Galactus, LT, the Dweller in the Darkness and the F4 Encyclopedia all reference the incident. Tough break kid 😬

Anyone wishing to see for themselves, please follow the link:

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/ohotmufaq.htm

It's like 2007 all over again... 😄

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Dear....

Is this feud STILL not done with? 😐

Originally posted by illadelph12
It's like 2007 all over again... 😄

😘

There has been a lot of hype over the Alien Entity however if you analyse the comic you can find out the truth and avoid the agenda driven bullshit

The Alien Entity was a scientist whose experiments lead him to become a cosmic being.

Throughout the story arc he does nothing of note, it is a strain to teleport himself and the team across the country:

He was weak from fleeing his race across space:

And yet you would have us believe that after further teleportation…

After requiring Reeds technology to transport himself:

“You have the technology to send me elsewhere”

He would suddenly have the power to trigger the creation of the universe?

My previous post still stands:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Reed and the Entitys desire to understand, their questions on their own existence were TRIGGERS for the creation event:

It was no feat of power. He was a trigger. Not a creator. That point is stated explicitly. There is no room for interpretation there.

If i light up a stick of dynamite i am the trigger for the resultant explosion, i am not the generator of the explosive power.

When Reed and the Entity travelled back to the pre 616 void and asked what is the meaning of life when they questioned existence they triggered the Big Bang.

However it happened in the exact same way as when Eternity did it (prior to their time travelling and interference) because as revealed they are Eternity. They like everyone else are extensions of him. As stated as much a part of him as the stars. Therefore as stated the reason life was created in Marvel was because Eternity strived to understand his own existence (presumably whilst in the cosmic egg) and [B]THAT proved to be the catalyst for the creation event.

The Alien Entity and Reed were merely substitutes for Eternity because they like EVERYONE ELSE are Eternity. The Alien Entity is no great universal creator. Neither is Reed Richards. [/B]

It states clear as day that life started because of the universe trying to understand itself. It then makes the point of saying that Reed and the Entity are as much the universe as the stars themselves.

So you can either believe that Reed of the F4 and this unproven Alien Entity have suddenly triggered the Big Bang. Or you can be sensible and follow the direction the comic was steering us in and accept that all life takes place due to Eternity’s efforts to understand himself.

Both interpretations are of course is all in contradiction to established canon and this story has had no support or official reference since it was published so I wouldn’t pay much attention to it. However for the sake of this story arc, Reed and the Entity triggered the creation event as extensions of Eternity.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Dear....

Is this feud STILL not done with? 😐

Does anyone beside themselves read their posts?

Originally posted by Mindset
Does anyone beside themselves read their posts?

No.

Originally posted by Mindset
Does anyone beside themselves read their posts?

When it gets that long i wouldnt expect anyone to lol.

I've made my point, i wont be making anymore long winded responses. 😉

Originally posted by Mindset
Does anyone beside themselves read their posts?

I do.