Originally posted by GalacticStormWhy the aggression son? 😕
Do you feel threatened?
Originally posted by GalacticStormTake your ass home and post as you wish.
It will not make a difference. Never has done.
Originally posted by GalacticStormOn panel, the Phoenix Force is described by the likes of Reed Richards,
as the Big Bang
Reed talking shit ... ^^^
*** Now ...
Reed not only seeing shit .. but experiencing shit too.
Reed seeing kaka and experiencing kaka >>> Reed talking kaka 👆
Originally posted by GalacticStormOn panel, the Phoenix Force is described by Kubik,
as the well from which the stars draw sustenance
Heck, there are many beings that have their own Universes,
their own stars, with no need to sustain life withIN ther ow Universes,
meh, for example,
the Enigma Force is what sustains the Microverse Universe,
one example out of too many to list right now.
That aside ...
What's funny about the truth Kubik claimed is,
that withIN that very same story,
Kubik excluded the Phoenix Force as a Fundamental necessity to Reality,
Kubik did state that Mistress Death, Lord Chaos & Master Order
were the Fundamental Forces:
Also notice
how it's Chaos & Order that maintain the Metaphysical stability of the Universe.
***
You also decided to place Eternity below the Phoenix Force in your list,
yet your using Kubik's line about Phoenix being the "sustenance of the stars"
LOL!
Yet you completely ignore
how at the end of Kubik's introduction trip of the hierarchy of powers,
he clearly states that Eternity encompasses all the other powers ...
... which must include the Phoenix Force who was presented first by Kubik. ✅
So make up your mind,
you agree with Kubik when he says one thing that plays into your agenda (not really anyway)
but you'll ignore him when he says another that stomps that same agenda (completly btw)
although both things were said withIN the story/comic? hm
Originally posted by GalacticStormGalactus,
Official Handbooksthe Force itself
life force of reality
the energies of creation,
sum and SUBSTANCE of all life [/B]
Next.
Originally posted by GalacticStormRegardless of whether these facts fit into your agenda defined logic
you are in no position to credibly tell anyone otherwise.
Understand that.
Originally posted by GalacticStormThe Big Bang is the energies of creation.
It is what created the universe within Marvel.According to real world science the energy of the universe is primarily contained within the stars. They were the first astronomical objects created:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/07/080731-early-stars.html
http://www.exploratorium.edu/origins/cern/ideas/bang.html
They were created by the matter and energy of the Big Bang.
The Phoenix:
“Mother of the stars”
First:
No need to tell me what came from the Big Bang,
because everything came from the Big Bang in Marvel comics.
Second:
I could care less what your real world science link says.
Third:
I could care even less
for what your single hyperbolic unsupported statement says.
All the energy that makes up UniverseS comes solely from a single point in Marvel Comics,
and that's Eternity/Infinity ... NOT the Phoenix Force:
"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that ALL This -- is but a fraction of what Eternity is,
the core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,
I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the UniverseS"
***
See ... that's not just a silly statement,
that's an actual artistic depiction of what's being said. 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStormThe Phoenix (According to Kubik the Cosmic Cube being):
"The stars.....the source from which all other life springs"
“The well from which they draw their sustenance”
We know this, because there are many beings that own their Universe,
where they are omnipotent, and where they create their own life,
like uhh .. post-retcon Beyonder for instance:
Or Aggy, or Cytorrak or many others, in the 616 Multiverse and beyond.
Originally posted by GalacticStormAccording to Reed Richards, the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang:
“Galactus was transformed by the energies of creation,
call it the Big Bang, The Phoenix Force or what have you”
Reed seeing kaka (shit) and experiencing kaka >>> Reed talking kaka
You got Reed talking kaka ...
I got Reed seeing and experiencing kaka:
So, Still using Reed after this huh?
whistling ... My, my.
Originally posted by GalacticStormThe energies of the Big Bang gave the universe life.
They are the universes life force.Galactus marks the Phoenix avatar as those energies expressed within reality:
[B] “An expression of the universal life force”
NOT Reality! ... the Phoenix's Reality/Life is dependent on living beings,
because the Phoenix itself gets its power from said place,
in other words, the Phoenix is not self sufficient, even if it sustains the stars,
it's actually living beings sustaining the stars, since they sustain the Phoenix Force.
Anyhow,
Galactus is replying to Phoenix after she claimed to be the embodiment of life,
Galactus clearly told her WRONG!!!
"Your an expression of the universal life force, NOT a well spring"
***
You also forgot the part where Phoenix herself states she is sustained by Life's cycle,
that means that her power/existence (even in its Natural State as Galactus points out)
is dependent upon living creatures.
LOL!
No wonder the Phoenix Force's own bio states:
(excerpt from the official Marvel Handbook - Phoenix Force - bio 2005)
"The PF is a manifestation of the prime universal life force of life!
derived from the psyches of all living beings"
***
Meh,
Same official Handbook tells us Phoenix is nothing but another child of the Universe,
not it's creator,
or anything even alluding to such a ridiculous statement.
"The Phoenix Force is a child of the Universe"
~yawn~
Originally posted by GalacticStormGalactus also makes the point that all the energy within the universes stems from the Big Bang. So anything that is of 616 is derived from the Big Bang: [B] “In the moment of creation, all that will ever be, was. In birth and death there is transition and in living advancement, but nothing new is created.”
Nice try.
Originally posted by GalacticStormWhen Galactus tried to separate the Force from Rachel in Excalibur #25
the stars of reality started to die out:This further cements the point that the stars of the universe are powered by the Phoenix Force. The Watcher makes the point that if Galactus continued the universe would be a lifeless void. It would face “Ultimate extinction”
That aside,
I already agreed that the Phoenix Force is the sustenance of the stars,
but we also found out
that the Phoenix Force itself is sustained by the same life it sustains
therefore, if living beings die, Phoenix dies.
That's unfortunate for Phoenix,
there are many characters in the Marvel Unverse
with their own self sustained Universes where they are omnipotent,
again, like post-retcon Beyonder.
Eternity/Living Tribunal tell post-recton Beyonder:
"retain your Omnipotent position withIN your own Universe"
*** Indeed:
Beyonder:
"I can create billions of Life Forms with but a thought"
Next.
Originally posted by GalacticStormAs touched on before, the stars are powered by the Big Bang.
They themselves enable life.
Originally posted by GalacticStormAs revealed in Dr Strange the stars are the source of all energy in the universe
That's a bunch of crap,
if that were true, I could name you 15 characters right now
that would fit your definition of being the "source of all energy in the universe."
Stars are created with a thought by many characters,
are they all the source of all energy in the universe too?
Get that 70's interpretation out of here dogs. 👇
Originally posted by GalacticStormAccording to the Phoenix Force it is “the life force of the universe incarnate”:
Please, Phoenix hyperbolizing about herself, on top of that,
that's an Alternate Reality. 👇
Nice try ... Fail again.
Originally posted by GalacticStormAs revealed in Excalibur the Phoenix is the energies of the Big Bang turned sentient:
I don't wanna accuse you of lying,
but how many more times are ya gonna claim this?
The bio states, Phoenix was "re-born from the Fires of the Big Bang"
"Reborn from the fires of the Big Bang" ...
Yes, yes, so was Galactus, who never really died like Phoenix,
and everything else in the Marvel Universe was created from the same fires,
big deal,
and the Alien Entity created and held the "Spark" that set all that off in his hand,
LOL ... before even Phoenix was re-born.
Alien Entity is badass. ✅
Originally posted by GalacticStormTo sum this up, the Phoenix was reborn into reality in the Big Bang. It is those energies turned sentient. That is how it is the “Mother of the stars”, “life force of reality” and the “sum and substance of all that lives”. That is why when Galactus disrupted the natural order by attempting to remove the Force from Rachel, the Watcher said the result could be ultimate extinction for reality.
1. "The Phoenix was reborn into reality in the Big Bang"
True, like everything else.
2. The Big Bang. It is those energies turned sentient."
False, Phoenix has never even created a Galaxy.
3. "The “Mother of the stars"
False. No credible evidence to support that nonsense.
4. "life force of reality”
False. The life-force of Reality is Eternity/Infinity who make up space & time,
Phoenix operates withIN Eternity/Infinity,
and like the Phoenix Force's bio illuminates, Phoenix is nothing but a child of Eternity/Infinity.
5. “sum and substance of all that lives”
Bull shit ...
6. "To remove the Force from Rachel,
the Watcher said the result could be ultimate extinction for reality."
False, Watcher never said extinction for Reality, he said for life,
and again, we already know this pertains to living creatures,
not self sustained cosmic powers.
Originally posted by GalacticStormWhilst Eternity is the embodiment of the universe,
the Phoenix Force is the creation energies which brought the universe into being.Make of that what you will. [/B]
Originally posted by GalacticStormAlmost forgot.
Officially the Phoenix Force is the manifestation of the universal life force:
"Universal life force of Life" ... NOT Reality!
Same 2008 bio.
Fail.
Originally posted by GalacticStormTheres no denying it.
Indeed.
Originally posted by GalacticStormThe M’kraan Crystal was retconned into a multiversal nexus during the AOA event.
If the crystal is compromised in one reality then the effects are felt in all realities. Potentially wiping out the whole multiverse:
Originally posted by GalacticStormAdventures of the X-men #12 was originally portrayed as a What If reality with the Watcher introducing and concluding the story. In it the M’kraan crystal had been corrupted by the Dweller in the Darkness. He feeds on fear and was hoping that the universe would die in fear as the M’kraan crystals breakdown swallowed reality. This would have enabled him to feed off of the fear making him all powerful. However when Phoenix realised that the crystal had gone beyond the point of repair she decided to foil the Dwellers plans by telepathically reaching out to all life, helping them to except their fate and die in peace therefore giving off no fear for the Dweller to feed on. This universe was the one Galan came from and as reality broke down Galan was summoned by the Eternity of the previous reality to bond with him so that he would live on in the current reality as Galactus.
Whilst this was originally a What If tale as a result of the M’kraan retcon the fact that its power was fully unleashed meant that by current continuity all realities were destroyed, so the Watcher couldn’t have been around to report on anything. Because of this point Marvel ignored the fact that this was a What If tale and now treat the story as the last moments from the previous reality.
That's an Alternate Reality that diverged from 616!
So how the hell do you wanna place this as the Previous Universe of the Infinity Being?
LOL!
And the Mkraan Crystal ONLY destroyed that ONE Alternate Reality in the story btw. 😂
(so On Panel it's officially a Universal power ... nothing more)
I could care less about any speculative opinions outside of On Panel evidence.
I remember the link you threw t me trying to claim something,
little did you know how it would back fire.
He's the reminder:
That link, you're own link,
literally cements the Alien Entity's on panel display as 100% Canon.
(it's even the picture of the Alien Entity that represents the page at the top) 😂
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe
"The Beginnings of the Universe:"
"When the exact combination of cosmic rays was detected again,
Richards did, in fact, contact an alien being.
Richards and the Entity found themselves adrift in time and space,
drawn back by their inquisitiveness to the beginnings of the universe.
The question was how did existence come from non-existence—
the question was the fire, born of their need to understand,
and it became the spark that lit the fire of creation.
The Entity MERGED with the Energies and Forces that became Creation ..."
............................................................................................................
Notice how the other three I mentioned (Sise/Entropy/Thanos) are referenced,
nothing about Phoenix is mentioned, even hinted, anywhere in this page,
even in the story that describes Galactus' involvement at the beginning of the first creation.
Nothing.
🙂
And nice try on the fallacious claim that this is Eternity re-creating himself,
that's absolutely false.
Eternity didn't even exist where the Alien Entity & Reed stood:
(before the Big Bang)
Because Eternity was born withIN the Big Bang:
Just like Phoenix:
And the rest of the Abstracts:
They're all reborn in the ever cycling Big Bang,
thus they all remain constant.
Alien Entity is the one that creates that "spark" and ignites it,
thus creating the Big Bang Phoenix and the Abstracts are born in,
AE also molded everything using Reed's mind,
no AE is merged with the Big Bang energies themselves.
AE is a beast.
I disagree with the hyperbole you're presenting as proof.
Try and find a comic where Phoenix is drawn sparking or creating the/a Big Bang.
Try and find a bio that even alludes to Phoenix being the Big Bang,
or even sparking it.
If Phoenix would have had
something/anything to do with the creation/destruction of the Marvel Universe,
it would've been presented in your Marvel.com link, but it wasn't. 😬
Sise-Neg was
Alien Entity was
Galactus was
Entropy/Genis was
Thanos/THOTI was
NO Phoenix, not ... a ... word.
There's only 3 accounts of the Beginning of the Universe,
according to your Marvel.com link,
and 2 of it's End, according to your Marvel.com link.
All of them took place On Panel, so they're true,
meaning they were visually/artistically depicted as happening.
No mention of your Phoenix/Excalibur scenario,
in fact,
No mention of Phoenix ... at all. 🙁
NOW This ... this is explained in detail:
*** http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe *** (your own link)
"The Beginnings of the Universe" (including the Big Bang "Spark" and all that jazz)
Again ... this is all supported in your Marvel.com link.
The Alien Entity stood in the void before the Big Bang (on panel)
the Alien Entity created the "Spark" that ignites creation with a thought (on panel)
The Alien Entity personally sparked the Big Bang with his own hands (on panel)
The Alien Entity indeed literally harnessed the energies of creation (on panel)
The Alien Entity (using Reed's mind as a guide) created the Marvel Universe and all its history. (on panel)
The Alien Entity merged with the fires/engines of creation, past, present & future (on panel)
100% Canon! ...
Also corroborated by the Editors in the FF questionnaires section, next few issues.
A typical Mr Master response. You haven’t changed a bit. All impudence very little substance. Allow me to reveal and then fill in the gaping holes in your biased interpretation.
Reed Richards is a reputable source. He has in depth knowledge of science and the workings of the universe from his experience as a world class scientist and a superhero. You cannot accept his testimony for one point and reject for another one that does not coincide with your fantasies about Marvels hierarchy.
Reed says the energies of creation are the Big Bang and just another name for the Phoenix Force. You either accept him as a reputable source or you do not. You can’t basely pick and choose my young friend. If you’re going to be biased at least be sly with it.
Originally posted by Mr Master
True that, I never denied it,
in fact, I added that reason to my list for placing the PF in my list,
but meh, only living creatures need the Stars to survive, big whoop,
many beings and entities that are self sufficient have no need of the Phoenix's purpose.Heck, there are many beings that have their own Universes,
their own stars, with no need to sustain life withIN ther ow Universes,
meh, for example,
the Enigma Force is what sustains the Microverse Universe,
one example out of too many to list right now.
I posted those real world science links for a reason. Not for you to ignore because they don’t favour your interpretation. Stars not only provide energy for all life to exist but matter from the stars is what formed the many structures of the universe, the planets, asteroids etc. You cannot demean the Phoenix by trying to make out as if the Phoenix is only responsible for living life forms. By canon the stars derive from her, therefore she is responsible for all energy and matter that derive from the stars. Not just humans, mutants and alien beings as you would like us to believe.
Telling us about what other beings and the Enigma Force do in their own pocket realities is irrelevant to this argument. Doesn’t change what Phoenix by canon is responsible for within the prime 616 reality.
Originally posted by Mr Master
That aside ...What's funny about the truth Kubik claimed is,
that withIN that very same story,
Kubik excluded the Phoenix Force as a Fundamental necessity to Reality,
Kubik did state that Mistress Death, Lord Chaos & Master Order
were the Fundamental Forces:
Kubik does no such thing. Here we go again with the selective acknowledgement Mr Master.
He introduces the stars as “The FIRST and in many ways the greatest of the principalities”
To be fair you probably ignored that statement because you didn’t know what the word meant. He rightly calls stars the first and in many ways greatest of the principalities because they are the foundation from which the rest of the universe is derived from. As he says they are “concentrated cosmic life force”[B] and [B]“the source from which all other life springs” and yet you believe Kubik excluded the Phoenix as a necessity for reality?
Stars are the first astronomical structures to have existed and from them come all energy and matter within reality, matter which goes on to form planets and other astronomical structures. Our planet for example is formed from matter and energy derived from the Sun.
Without stars there would be a void. There would be nothing for Eternity to embody, no life for the concept of Death to exist. No life to harbor emotions such as Love and Hate. The abstracts existence is dependent on life existing to give significance to the concepts that they embody. Without the cosmic life force that Phoenix provides to fill up the void and ensure there is life, they couldn’t exist.
Therefore Kubik began his educational trip about the inner workings of universe by starting off with the things from which the others to follow derive from; the first and greatest aspects of Eternity to exist, the stars.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Also notice
how it's Chaos & Order that maintain the Metaphysical stability of the Universe.
How is this relevant? No one made the claim that Phoenix had this role. It seems like this statement is just filler to pad out your insubstantial argument.
Originally posted by Mr Master
***You also decided to place Eternity below the Phoenix Force in your list,
yet your using Kubik's line about Phoenix being the "sustenance of the stars"LOL!
Yet you completely ignore
how at the end of Kubik's introduction trip of the hierarchy of powers,
he clearly states that Eternity encompasses all the other powers ...... which must include the Phoenix Force who was presented first by Kubik. ✅
Really? That’s funny because I thought it was the stars that were featured and not the Phoenix Force. The stars are stated to be powered by the Phoenix Force and these creations of Phoenix come under Eternity’s borders and provide him with cosmic life force. However the stars are creations of Phoenix not the sum total of what the Phoenix is. Not once did Kubik include the Phoenix Force as one of the principalities, merely her creations the stars.
The Phoenix provides the universe with cosmic life force as Kubik illustrated, but it is also more. The Phoenix’s essence is not restricted to the universe
You have seen this in New X-men with the Phoenix Corps within the White Hot Room. All that is the Phoenix is not encompassed in the universe.
As the Force itself states in Excalibur#64 page 21 it is “of time and space and yet beyond”.
Originally posted by Mr Master
So make up your mind,
you agree with Kubik when he says one thing that plays into your agenda (not really anyway)
but you'll ignore him when he says another that stomps that same agenda (completly btw)
although both things were said withIN the story/comic? hm
I think it’s quite clear whose argument is defined by agenda Mr Master. You just tried to say that Kubik completely excluded Phoenix from being necessary for reality and yet he called her creations the first and greatest principalities. He gave her credit for providing cosmic life force to the universe and being the source from which all life in the universe derives from.
You tried to make out as if the Phoenix is just responsible for just life forms completely ignoring the scientific fact that stars are the universes source of energy and that from them comes the matter and energy which makes not only life possible but also the many astronomical structures that populate the universe; smaller stars, planets, asteroids etc.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, you best be talking about the "Force itself" hyperboling about itself,
because neither Galactus
nor any freaking Handbook ever said Phoenix is any of those things.
Galactus never?
That’s another funny comment because I’m quite sure I posted a scan with him saying exactly that.
According to Galactus the Phoenix avatar is an “expression of the universal life force”
That is exactly the same as the life force of reality, something the Phoenix has called herself and something Kubik confirmed by saying the stars are concentrated cosmic life force from which all life springs.
The Handbook never?
“The Phoenix Force is an immortal, indestructible and mutable manifestation of the PRIME universal force of life”
Prime universal force of life= Universal life force = Life force of reality(a term used by Phoenix herself)
Yet you would really waste mine and everyone’s time nitpicking over completely interchangeable words and terms? If you really have nothing to say, if your argument is that vacuous then accept the truth and say nothing more.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Wait ...First:
No need to tell me what came from the Big Bang,
because everything came from the Big Bang in Marvel comics.Second:
I could care less what your real world science link says.
Third:
I could care even less
for what your single hyperbolic unsupported statement says.
First- I agree
Second- You can choose to not care however what you can’t do is ignore it like it’s not completely relevant to the argument taking place. Especially when there are comic scans which show that the same is true within the comic book world.
There are the Dr Strange scans describing how all energy in the universe derives from the stars. That matches up.
You have Kubik’s comments depicting how the stars are the first principality which matches up with the real world science that stars were the first astronomical structures within the universe. Real world science says that the stars provide energy the universes energy and make it possible for life. Kubik’s comments say they are concentrated cosmic life force and all life derives from them.
Choose to not care as much as you want, you however are in no position to paint them as irrelevant to this debate.
Originally posted by Mr Master
All the energy that makes up UniverseS comes solely from a single point in Marvel Comics,
and that's Eternity/Infinity ... NOT the Phoenix Force:"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
, and collapsing into ruin,
[B]Entire UniverseS being born
and yet I sense that ALL This -- is but a fraction of what Eternity is,the core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,
I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the UniverseS"***
See ... that's not just a silly statement,
that's an actual artistic depiction of what's being said. 🙂 [/B]
I love your biased interpretations Mr M. They’re so transparent.
Eternity is the universe. Of course the power of creation is going to be within his being because he IS creation.
The difference between Eternity and Phoenix is that Phoenix is the ambient energies of creation from which all life springs. Eternity is the embodiment of the resultant universe. The Phoenix Force, the life energies of the universe are threaded throughout all of Eternity.
How does your scan tell us anything we didn’t already know?
How does your single scan contradict the dozen scans I have presented?
Unfortunately for your case it does not. It tells us that the energies of creation are contained within the universe that is Eternity. Who didn’t know that? Does it tell us that Eternity IS the energies of creation? ❌ Then it’s irrelevant.
Originally posted by Mr Master
That's nice,
and we well know Kubik is talking about living creatures that are not self sufficient.We know this, because there are many beings that own their Universe,
where they are omnipotent, and where they create their own life,
like uhh .. post-retcon Beyonder for instance:Or Aggy, or Cytorrak or many others, in the 616 Multiverse and beyond.
How so? You mean according to your own self serving logic? Does the fact that beings can go off and create their own universes demean Eternity’s role as a sentient prime universe?
Of course it doesn’t. Yet surprise surprise you’re quite willing to promote the idea that beings taking sole responsibility for everything in their own little universes discredits Phoenix’s position. Your bias has never been more apparent.
There’s a reason for there being a distinction between main universes and pocket universes. The Phoenix as stated is the PRIME universal force of life. That’s all that matters here.
Originally posted by Mr Master😂 ... What you don't understand is he's talking about the life force of LIFE!
NOT Reality! ... the Phoenix's Reality/Life is dependent on living beings,
because the Phoenix itself gets its power from said place,
in other words, the Phoenix is not self sufficient,
What I don¡¦t understand? The audacity of that statement given what you went on to say next! 😂
How can you tell anyone that he was talking about the life force of life forms when he clearly says the ¡§universal life force¡¨?
Your interpretation contradicts the various other statements which refer to the Phoenix Force powering the stars. Because yes Mr Master the stars sole function in reality is to create life forms. 🙄
The Phoenix Force doesn't get its power from life, it is life, the Phoenix avatar, the expression of the Phoenix Force within reality has to tap into life energies to maintain a sentient presence within reality.
I will dwell further on this point below.
Originally posted by Mr Master
even if it sustains the stars,
it's actually living beings sustaining the stars, since they sustain the Phoenix Force.
So the stars, by real world science and as stated in the comics the first of the principalities, the first astronomical objects in the universe are powered by life forms which came millions of years later and need the stars to exist themselves?
Are you serious? Did you really just say that?
People are you hearing this? 😱
What has just happened here is that Mr Master really doesn¡¦t know what he¡¦s talking about. He hasn¡¦t taken the time to properly read and comprehend the comic book he¡¦s attempting to provide an analysis for. He is biased against the Phoenix and this has compromised his analytical and debating ability resulting in him posting such ludicrous statements.
People don't power the Phoenix, you have just read a statement and stupidly misinterpreted it because you don¡¦t care about the character being discussed, all you care about is putting it as low in the hierarchy as you can because you resent the way that regardless of what you come up with, I run circles around you. I¡¦m smiling as I type this. Just like this. ƒº
I will explain the error of your ways following your next hilarious quote.
