tournament of dark siders
each fight is al out this takes place on nabbo in the plains with alot of open room
please i want this to be a good thread so please no senseless arguments or going off track with replies
winner of fight (WoF)
fight 1 Githany vs Ventress
fight 2 Kas'im vs Maul
fight 3 Zannah vs sora bolq
fight 4 Dooku vs malak
next round
WoF 1 vs WoF 3
WoF 2 vs WoF 4
last round
winners of last fight
Re: tournament of dark siders
Originally posted by onewiththeforce
each fight is al out this takes place on nabbo in the plains with alot of open room
please i want this to be a good thread so please no senseless arguments or going off track with replieswinner of fight (WoF)
fight 1 Githany vs Ventress
fight 2 Kas'im vs Maul
fight 3 Zannah vs sora bolq
fight 4 Dooku vs malak
next roundWoF 1 vs WoF 3
WoF 2 vs WoF 4
last roundwinners of last fight
Both Dooku and Kas'im would defeat Ventress soundly.
fight 1 Githany vs Ventress
Ventress' dual lightsabers counter Githany's skill with the light-whip easily, and she whoops Githany in the Force ridiculously easily.
fight 2 Kas'im vs Maul
When there are sabers involved, Kas'im will always kick butt. No argument. There is no evidence that Maul was particularly strong in the Force, either, so the Sith Blademaster dominates this duel.
fight 3 Zannah vs sora bulq
Tough one. Zannah was well-trained in all the Sith arts, but Sora Bulq was the epitome of dark force and efficiency. I think that Sora would probably win in sabers (trained by Mace Windu, donchaknow), but Zannah would win out in the Force. In the long run, however, I think Sora's stamina and power would win the fight for her.
fight 4 Dooku vs malak
Dooku is one of the most skilled swordsmen in history, and he has pretty amazing Force skills as well. He destroys Malak without much effort.
next roundVentress vs sora
This isn't too hard of a decision. Although they are both skilled duelists, Sora is easily the more powerful of the two. She is stronger and can last longer, so I think she would eventually overpower Ventress.
Kas'im vs Dooku
This is another one where the two specialize in different areas, so it is harder to judge. Kas'im is a master of all things saber, but Dooku is also a very skilled duelist as well as a very powerful Force-user. It could go either way. However, assuming that Dooku is generally more powerful in the Force than Kas'im, I think that edge combined with his Makashi mastery would allow him to counter the dueling prowess of the Sith Blademaster, and win him the fight.
That's just my opinion, though. As I said, it could go either way.
last roundwinners of last fight (sora vs. Dooku)
It's not particularly hard for me to figure this one out; Sora was Mace Windu's prodigy, and she was skilled in the Vaapad form, if not a master. However, Dooku defeated Windu before, more than once if I'm not mistaken. Sora has stamina and power, but so does Dooku, despite being advanced in age. They are about equal in Force abilities, but I think Dooku has the edge again.
Finally, like in the previous two rounds, it could still go either way, but I think Count Dooku ends up winning the tournament.
Re: tournament of dark siders
Originally posted by onewiththeforce
fight 1 Githany vs Ventress
(What does that even mean?)
Originally posted by onewiththeforce
fight 2 Kas'im vs Maul
Originally posted by onewiththeforce
fight 3 Zannah vs sora bolq
Originally posted by onewiththeforce
fight 4 Dooku vs malak
Originally posted by onewiththeforce
next round[Ventress] vs [Zannah]
Originally posted by onewiththeforce
[Kas'im] vs [Dooku]
Originally posted by onewiththeforce
[Kasi'm] vs. [Ventress]
Kas'im would rip her to shreds. Srsly.
Logik available upon request.
Originally posted by Gideon
I have an extremely hard time believing that Kas'im would take Dooku.
Really? Kas'I can deal with a charged Darth Bane Force push that can liquidize bone and anhialate a temple and tool him in Saber skills'im couldn't take Dooku? Dooku is immensely talented in swordsmanship but Kas'im was just about the ultimate master. He knows 'every combination' for Makashi and while Dooku won't be thrown a loop by his Jar'Kai he will still have to deal with one of the best swordsman in history.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Really? Kas'I can deal with a charged Darth Bane Force push that can liquidize bone and anhialate a temple and tool him in Saber skills'im couldn't take Dooku? Dooku is immensely talented in swordsmanship but Kas'im was just about the ultimate master. He knows 'every combination' for Makashi and while Dooku won't be thrown a loop by his Jar'Kai he will still have to deal with one of the best swordsman in history.
You butchered the word "annihilate."
Kas'im has demonstrated nothing that would suggest he's fit enough to be spoken in the same sentenceparagraphbook as Dooku relative to Force use. Lightsaber combat? Sure. But not Force use. Dooku is insanely powerful; Kas'im is insanely skilled. Total difference.
Originally posted by Gideon
You butchered the word "annihilate."
Originally posted by Gideon
Kas'im has demonstrated nothing that would suggest he's fit enough to be spoken in the samesentenceparagraphbook as Dooku relative to Force use. Lightsaber combat? Sure. But not Force use. Dooku is insanely powerful; Kas'im is insanely skilled. Total difference.
This is not a Force contest, is it? Kas'im has shown the ability to combat those with vastly superior Force mastery (Bane) than he and will be able to apply those same techniques to his fight with Dooku. I don't know that it can be argued that Dooku's TK > Bane's, especially since Dooku doesn't have a feat that compares to Bane's destruction of the temple. That leaves Dooku with other forms of attack, the most likely one being Force lightning. I find it difficult to believe that a Sith Lord in an order of other Sith Lords with whom he competes would be incapable of dealing with Force lightning. Dooku's incredible mastery will be influential, but I doubt that it will be a game-changer, which is exactly what the count needs if he allows a saber fight.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Yeah. I misspelled it and then the edit function wouldn't tell me what it was and I didn't really care enough to fix it.
Of course you didn't.
This is not a Force contest, is it?
No, this is an all out fight, where the Force does apply.
Kas'im has shown the ability to combat those with vastly superior Force mastery (Bane) than he and will be able to apply those same techniques to his fight with Dooku.
He was losing the fight against Bane due to his inferior mastery of the Force.
I don't know that it can be argued that Dooku's TK > Bane's, especially since Dooku doesn't have a feat that compares to Bane's destruction of the temple.
It doesn't have to. Count Dooku may not demonstrate as much raw strength as Bane, but his telekinesis is much more refined and has been demonstrated many times throughout canon. He's a proponent of critical and efficient strikes to disable enemies, not just mowing them down with the Force.
That leaves Dooku with other forms of attack, the most likely one being Force lightning. I find it difficult to believe that a Sith Lord in an order of other Sith Lords with whom he competes would be incapable of dealing with Force lightning.
That is an incredible assumption. Only a handful of Force users have been shown with the power and skill to deflect or "deal with" Force lightning without a lightsaber. Kas'im is no Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, or even Kota -- the fact that he is a Sith Lord does not lend basis to the idea that he can deal with Force lightning.
With a lightsaber? Sure.
Dooku's incredible mastery will be influential, but I doubt that it will be a game-changer, which is exactly what the count needs if he allows a saber fight.
Who says it will be?
Originally posted by Gideon
He was losing the fight against Bane due to his inferior mastery of the Force.
Originally posted by Gideon
It doesn't have to. Count Dooku may not demonstrate as much raw strength as Bane, but his telekinesis is much more refined and has been demonstrated many times throughout canon. He's a proponent of critical and efficient strikes to disable enemies, not just mowing them down with the Force.
Originally posted by Gideon
That is an incredible assumption. Only a handful of Force users have been shown with the power and skill to deflect or "deal with" Force lightning without a lightsaber. Kas'im is no Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, or even Kota -- the fact that he is a Sith Lord does not lend basis to the idea that he can deal with Force lightning.With a lightsaber? Sure.
Originally posted by Gideon
Who says it will be?
That is an incredible assumption. Only a handful of Force users have been shown with the power and skill to deflect or "deal with" Force lightning without a lightsaber. Kas'im is no Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, or even Kota -- the fact that he is a Sith Lord does not lend basis to the idea that he can deal with Force lightning.With a lightsaber? Sure.
Actually the Force Unleashed novel makes it clear and connon that you can deal with Force Lightning with Force Lightning. Apparently it happens just like in the game where the streams meet in the middle and you have to push ( Harry Potter style) the opponents attack back. This happens when Starkiller is waylaid by the Imperial Guard on Cload city.
You can also use your lightsaber to increase the power of your Lightning.
It's Cannon.✅
Kas'im showed an ability to block a desperate lashing out of an exhausted Bane who threw an attack wildly and it apparently left him incapable of getting away from the collapsing temple in time. A focused attack from a powerful Force user would go over differently and there's no reason Kas'im wouldn't have been running the brotherhood as opposed to Sith more powerful in the force than he was if he was capable of butchering them in combat.
Also, I'm not really seeing Kas'im taking Maul like everyone's saying. Maul's likely just as dangerous a fighter as Kas'im and has serious backing to boot. Same for Dooku. Being an absolute specialist of one form does not make him inferior to a master of all.
The Master of all:
1. Would be completely familiar with the specialist's chosen form.
2. Would be able to bring techniques and combinations to the table that the specialist would have little to no real familiarity with.
3. Can attack with a far greater level of efficiency (draw on each of the forms' strengths and eliminate their weaknesses).
4. Has a greater range of techniques and combinations to strategically bring to the table.
The specialist has 1 advantage, a greater proportional length of time with the form relative to the total amount of time spent training with the weapon. Learning potential, and overall training time would also factor in, and the specialist would eventually start seeing diminishing returns as to the degree to which a rising proficiency with the style would add to his overall end-product effectiveness.
Common sense would dictate that the master of all possesses a significant advantage over the specialist.
Originally posted by Balmung
The Master of all:1. Would be completely familiar with the specialist's chosen form.
And yet, in turn, would not be nearly as adept with it.
2. Would be able to bring techniques and combinations to the table that the specialist would have little to no real familiarity with.
Which would not faze the specialist, considering that he spent a great deal of time training and sparring with General Grievous, a notorious Jedi killer who was the beneficiary of superhuman strength, speed, reflexes, and a computer interface capable of replicating almost anything -- including "the unconventionally lethal Vaapad" (which, in turn, is "the deadliest" of all lightsaber forms) -- and replicating it with great accuracy. Not to mention that the General was trained in all seven forms of lightsaber combat. All of this is to say that Dooku generally shamed Grievous in combat without use of his Force powers.
3. Can attack with a far greater level of efficiency (draw on each of the forms' strengths and eliminate their weaknesses).
Elaborate.
4. Has a greater range of techniques and combinations to strategically bring to the table.
This is a rehash of the second point, which has already been dealt with. Count Dooku faced down and dominated a cyborg general with a great deal of advantages on his side: greater mobility, reflexes, strength, a means of replication and imitation afforded by a computer interface, and mastery of all seven lightsaber forms.
The specialist has 1 advantage, a greater proportional length of time with the form relative to the total amount of time spent training with the weapon. Learning potential, and overall training time would also factor in, and the specialist would eventually start seeing diminishing returns as to the degree to which a rising proficiency with the style would add to his overall end-product effectiveness.Common sense would dictate that the master of all possesses a significant advantage over the specialist.
In the end, actually, Kas'im has nothing that you have identified that would enable him to defeat Dooku.
Originally posted by Gideon
And yet, in turn, would not be nearly as adept with it.
1. The point was that the "Master of all" would be prepared for anything.
2. I already covered this:
The specialist has 1 advantage, a greater proportional length of time with the form relative to the total amount of time spent training with the weapon. Learning potential, and overall training time would also factor in, and the specialist would eventually start seeing diminishing returns as to the degree to which a rising proficiency with the style would add to his overall end-product effectiveness.
Which would not faze the specialist, considering that he spent a great deal of time training and sparring with General Grievous, a notorious Jedi killer who was the beneficiary of superhuman strength, speed, reflexes, and a computer interface capable of replicating almost anything -- including "the unconventionally lethal Vaapad" (which, in turn, is "the deadliest" of all lightsaber forms) -- and replicating it with great accuracy. Not to mention that the General was trained in all seven forms of lightsaber combat. All of this is to say that Dooku generally shamed Grievous in combat without use of his Force powers.
1. I wasn't talking about Kas'im or Dooku specifically, I was responding to Lightsnake's statement that a "master of all" wasn't necessarily greater than an "absolute specialist." I was speaking in general terms.
2. Grievous was not trained in all seven forms; Dooku trained him in Makashi, and Windu theorized that he had picked up elements of all 6 other forms from the Jedi he had faced in combat.
3. With reference to Kas'im and Dooku specifically, Dooku cannot be said to be intimately familiar with every single form at Kas'im's disposal. That's all seven forms forms for the regular lightsaber, saber staff, and dual sabers. I don't recall Dooku being stated or shown to even possess any realm familiarity with the entire saber staff itself.
Elaborate.
It was pretty self explanatory.
The "Master of all" would be capable of overwhelming his opponent with Ataru like flurries, switching it up and relying on the precision of Makashi, going on the defence and falling back on Soresu, and in general using the strengths of every single form against his opponent, and where each form lacks (their weakness) is immaterial to him as he has all 6 others to answer for it.
This is a rehash of the second point, which has already been dealt with.
No it is not. The second point was dealing with how unfamiliar the "Master of All['s]" techniques may prove to the specialist. This deals with the sheer range of what he has to work with.
Count Dooku faced down and dominated a cyborg general with a great deal of advantages on his side: greater mobility, reflexes, strength, a means of replication and imitation afforded by a computer interface, and mastery of all seven lightsaber forms.
Grievous has never been shown to possess mastery of all seven forms, and may I ask what point you're trying to make here? It would be a fallacy of division to assert that his overall effectiveness with a lightsaber was absolutely testament to his skill.
In the end, actually, Kas'im has nothing that you have identified that would enable him to defeat Dooku.
1. Wasn't trying to prove as much.
2. He's several billion times the Count's superior in technical ability. Dooku has demonstrated nothing that would suggest he's fit enough to be spoken in the same sentenceparagraphbooktrilogy as Kas'im relative to Lightsaber use.
3. Despite your claims that Dooku's somehow miles his superior in Force ability, you've completely failed to prove it. As far as the tangible evidence that has actually been presented in this thread goes, Kas'im has far more going for him, and would win pretty easily in a battle between the two of them.
As for how adept Kas'im would be with each form:
SW😄B😛oD, Page 244:
"Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever."
So he masters all seven forms in some years, including Juyo, one that requires high level mastery of multiple other forms, and then spends even longer perfecting each one. The first part displays a virtually unparalleled learning potential with the lightsaber, and the fact that he spends even longer perfecting them firmly establishes that his mastery of each one was extremely high level.
Dooku, on the other hand, a being with literally no established learning potential, spends his entire life time mastering just one form: Makashi. A form that Kas'im himself possesses a high level mastery of. Meaning they're both experts of the form. Whether Dooku really is the greater expert of the two of them (which I will say is the more likely interpretation) or not, given how good they both actually are, there would be some serious diminishing returns involved in any kind of superiority, and realistically the tangible difference would be virtually nonexistent. Kas'im firmly outclasses Dooku in skill. He's his superior by several billions of leagues.