Originally posted by Red NemesisI [although with less sources and more brainz] will take further issue with this later, cuz it's dumb. Mace only needs the Vaapad loop's assistance when the opponent is faster, stronger, or more powerful than him. Based on showings, Kas'im is none of those. Shatterpoint plus Mace's demonstrated speed = win.
Unless Gideon or someone (lightsnake) with the mind-numbing number of sources that makes one good at this would like to take issue?
Oh, and Kas'im blocked a telekinetic attack that would've turned flesh and bone to pulp, but Mace unleashed telekinetic attacks that shredded battle-grade steel. Repeatedly.
Edit: So ha.
Originally posted by Red NemesisUmmm... Where did you come up with that at? One has to have a certain amount of force strength for the superconductive loop to work?
Vaapad won't do anything for Windu because Kas'im doesn't have the Force strength to give the superconducting loop any traction.
You are joking right?
The only thing that might give Kas'im the slightest pause before beating Windu like the red headed stepchild that he is is that he hasn't ever seen Vapaad's physical execution before; he doesn't know its combos. His sheer mastery over the weapon will more than compensate for this however. Kas'im tools Mace six ways from Sunday.Oh ok. Good point.
Huh. What do you know? I'm a bigger Kas'im fanboy than Windu fanboy. That's good information to have.Either that or you are joking.
Even though I'm so incredible gullible I just can't believe that Kas'im would be able to easily defeat the third strongest force user in the Star Wars movie saga.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Either that or you are joking.
I'm afraid *dramatic pause* he is not.
I really don't get you. What convincing points have you made? Your arguement was "or not", and so i replied "yes". You made your opinion simple and so did i.
I really hope you're joking though.
Originally posted by Eminence
I [although with less sources and more brainz] will take further issue with this later, cuz it's dumb.
You're dumb.
Originally posted by Eminence
Mace only needs the Vaapad loop's assistance when the opponent is faster, stronger, or more powerful than him. Based on showings, Kas'im is none of those. Shatterpoint plus Mace's demonstrated speed = win.
I don't have a response to shatterpoint yet, except that it is possible that Kas'im's technique has no weakness, what with his total mastery of every extant form and all.
Originally posted by Eminence
Oh, and Kas'im blocked a telekinetic attack that would've turned flesh and bone to pulp, but Mace unleashed telekinetic attacks that shredded battle-grade steel. Repeatedly.
Originally posted by Eminence
Edit: So ha.
Sidious66
Ummm... Where did you come up with that at? One has to have a certain amount of force strength for the superconductive loop to work?
From Project Holocron:
Case 1:
Vaapad practitioner vs. Dark Side UserThis is the most common instance in vs. Threads- See Mace vs. Palpatine. In this situation, the 'superconducting loop' comes into effect. In the only canon case of this occurrence, Vaapad was thrown against a superior force user (Sidious). The Superconducting loop serves to equalize the disparity between the Vapaad user and his opponent. This only comes into effect with Force powers- it copied Sidious's Force Speed, but would not be able to copy someone's innate speed- like Grievous.
Originally posted by Red Nemesisno u!1
*fewer*You're dumb.
False. On some points.No.
Vaapad equalizes differences in Force assisted speed.In favor of the user, as far as we've seen. Ventress, someone steeped in the dark side, didn't gain speed from Mace. She ran. Same with Dooku, although he may have been close enough in speed to Mace already.
Kas'im's prodigious speed and strengthSince when is anything but his form indicated to be "prodigious"?
does not appear to be Force assisted.The strength and speed he uses when he's pushing himself in the midst of battle is Force-assisted; that [and pre-cog] is sort of the point of a Jedi, Sith, or anyone between using the Force in combat.
So Mace can't mooch off of Kas'im's skill or innate speed.I didn't say he needed to.
While it is possible (probable) that Mace is inherently faster than Kas'im, I doubt that someone with his accolades can be speed blitzed by anyone.Eventually, Windu's superior speed will eventually wear down or find a hole in Kas'im's defenses, and then comes death. He didn't "blitz" him.
On a side note though, the likes of Sidious and Yoda could probably blitz and overwhelm Kas'im in seconds.
I don't have a response to shatterpoint yet, except that it is possible that Kas'im's technique has no weakness, what with his total mastery of every extant form and all.Then he wouldn't have been at a disadvantage against Bane.
Originally posted by EminenceIn favor of the user, as far as we've seen. Ventress, someone steeped in the dark side, didn't gain speed from Mace. She ran. Same with Dooku, although he may have been close enough in speed to Mace already.
Originally posted by Eminence
Since when is anything but his form indicated to be "prodigious"?
PoD
Kas'im twisted and dodged, leaping over one attack, then dropping to the ground to roll beneath another. He moved so fast he would have been nothing but a blur had the rancor not been blinded by rage. And with each evasion he struck another blow, whittling away at the mountain of sinew and flesh like a master sculptor working a lump of lommite.
The Blademaster was unrelenting in his pressure. He seemed to wield six blades rather than two
Originally posted by Eminence
The strength and speed he uses when he's pushing himself in the midst of battle is Force-assisted; that [and pre-cog] is sort of the point of a Jedi, Sith, or anyone between using the Force in combat.
Originally posted by Eminence
Eventually, Windu's superior speed will eventually wear down or find a hole in Kas'im's defenses, and then comes death. He didn't "blitz" him.
Originally posted by Eminence
On a side note though, the likes of Sidious and Yoda could probably blitz and overwhelm Kas'im in seconds.
Originally posted by Eminence
Then he wouldn't have been at a disadvantage against Bane.
He was [initially] at a disadvantage against Bane because of the latter's overwhelmingly superior speed and strength, not any technical disadvantage, and the idea that he'd get overwhelmed in seconds by people like Yoda or Sidious when he was capable of somewhat keeping up with someone who moves beyond the visual comprehension of Force Users is laughable.
As far as darksiders go, Kas'im is probably Mace Windu's toughest challenge in the context of a lightsaber battle (with a few armour wielding or insanely durable exceptions). What largely makes Kas'im so good, his by far biggest advantage, is his technical ability with a lightsaber, something that Mace's Vaapad gains no advantage from, which minimises the advantage Mace Windu would gain in the battle through Vaapad. Out of anybody in the entire mythos, his form is logically the closest there is to flawless, if not flawless itself, minimising Mace's Shatterpoint ability. And aside from that, he's displayed the ability to at least not get completely overwhelmed by the likes of Darth Bane in sheer speed and strength, and given his overwhelming mastery of the lightsaber, it's likely he can bring techniques to the table that Mace possesses no familiarity with.
Originally posted by Red NemesisWell, you brought it up weird. Your fault!
I wasn't aware that I had argued the opposite. Of course Vapaad won't help Kas'im. That's silly. You're silly. But.
He then proceeds to ruin Bane- overwhelming his precog and making him look like a mere apprentice. Kas'im is good.With two lightsabers, while using a style Bane has never even encountered before. Care to post the earlier passages?
And he was "almost invisible" to a rancor, not a Force-user. Mace, meanwhile, hit a Force-user [a good one] six times before he could blink.
Win.
What with Drew's fascination with the phrase 'to give one's self over to the dark side' I find it difficult to believe that Kas'im's usage of acrobatics has to be Force assisted. Did Qui-Gon have to use the Force for his ataru gymnastics? (Honest question.)I thought it was common knowledge that Force-users are always using the Force to make themselves faster, stronger, etc. while in combat or emergency situations. This is how Anakin gets stronger.
Also, see Mace vs. Kar.
Ok. No blitz. The fact that Kas'im can keep up with Mace's speed remains:Wut no.
Mace never goes much further than 'six blades rather than one.'Six blades rather than two. Misquoting a quote you quoted is bad.
Kas'im is simply better than Mace,Technically better, that's it. Anoon Bondara was, too.
and I don't think that the (admittedly large) power gap can close the difference.That and the other stuff probably can.
Ok. The term 'anyone' was hyperbole on my part.❌
Um... He wasn't? He completely outclasses Bane when using his own form.Because Bane knows jack all about that form. Mace is very much familiar with Jar'Kai, having used it in Shatterpoint and fought at least two extremely proficient users of it [Sora Bulq, Asajj Ventress]. He's also at least familiar with all the other ones on a basic level, and has a brand new, unique style of his own to use.
Mace Windu FTW.
Six blades rather than two. Misquoting a quote you quoted is bad.
*Slinks away quietly*
I don't think I'm capable of arguing against Mace. Like at all. Everything I say (in my own mind) can be countered with "Beat Sidious, Yoda/Dooku caliber, Vapaad, Shatterpoint." All you have to do is say the last two and I'll roll over and die. Srsly. I don't even think that I want to win this if it means Mace looses. At all.
I QUIT! I'M GOING HOME! 😠
*tear*