Pain vs Akatsuki and the Sannin

Originally posted by Naija boy
The times Itachi has done Tsukuyumi, he never did anything as precise as disabling or affecting their nervous system. Who did ITachi paralyse in the real world after usin tsukuyumi? He would have had to do this in order for the idea that he could replicate the effects of Jiraiyas genjutsu to have any substance. Further, in the case of Jiraiyas genjustsu, the pain bodies where actualy trapped in a cube in the physical world and hence couldnt move at all. Itachi has never shown abilities to have such physical manifestations in the real world.

Also the physical damage that the bodies go through in the Tsukuyumi world does not manifest in the physical world. Kakashi did not have any holes in his body after Tsukuyumi nor was he even bleeding. Infact Kisame called it "the genjustsu used to breakdown ones spirit". That description as well as its method of operation as seen on panel pretty much sums up the attack. It is focused causing great mental and subconscious pain to the individual. No physical damage is carried over (as seen in the case of Itachi whose body was still intact). So the belief that pains bodies will be to damaged to function is just false seeing as it doesnt cause physical damage in the first place. And then considering that the pain bodies cannot feel the form of pain that Tsukuyumi inflicts(they are alread dead, there is no spirit to even break down so itachi"letting them live" was never even on the cards) it will be inneffective. Further since it is a near instant attack, it will only serve in weakening itachi and wont even occupy pains time at all.

And the whole idea that Itachi tsukuyumi would somehow affect Naato or even the rest of the pain bodies is completely unsupported by anythin. Tsukuyumi is based on direct eye contact. It will only affect(and prove ineffective) the body whose physical eyes directly look into itachis. None of the others and certainly not nagato.

Though the Tsukuyomi is not real it feels just as real as if it were truly happening that is why when he used it on Kakashi he could no longer fight because of the stress the jutsu creates on his brain. He was out of action for weeks after that.

Also Terry is right that attack would not only affect one but all of them including Nagato ans since Nagato is the one controlling all of the bodies he himself would probably be put out of action. Allowing the team to win.

Originally posted by yungz22
Though the Tsukuyomi is not real it feels just as real as if it were truly happening that is why when he used it on Kakashi he could no longer fight because of the stress the jutsu creates on his brain. He was out of action for weeks after that.

Also Terry is right that attack would not only affect one but all of them including Nagato ans since Nagato is the one controlling all of the bodies he himself would probably be put out of action. Allowing the team to win.

The pain bodies are dead. As ive explained, the mental anguish, Tsukuyumi inflicts is therefore of no consequence.

And no it would not affect all of them at all. It would onl affect(and prove ineffective) the body whose physical eyes make direct contact with Itachi since the jutsu is based on direct eyecontact. It definitely wouldnt affect nagato at all.

Where was that proven? Show me?

All genjutsu is, is "mental anguish". It's all just illusions. Itachi can do whatever he wants with Tsukiyomi, whether it be, slicing off his arms and legs a thousand times, the body will feel the effects just as Pains body felt the effects of Jiraiya's illusion.

Pains bodies were not literally trapped inside that cube, it was an illusion. An illusion to make them trapped so that in the real world, it feels as though there nerves have been paralyzed. In Itachi's case, he controls everything that goes on in the world of Tsukiyomi, he can literally Kill them inside that world. And what you're saying is that Pain cannot feel anything, well that's incorrect. They still have nerves as those nerves were effected by Jiraiyas illusion. The bodies still wear, and they still get damaged by metnal illusions as proven by Jiraiya. Nagato still saw the illusion, it wasn't like he wasn't effected at all, he just had other bodies to help him.

Genjutsu is manipulating ur opponents chakra to create a specific effect. The Genjutsu Jiraiya used manipulated the chakra in the Pain bodies so that in the real world, there nerves were paralyzed. The reason Tsukuyumi wont be effective on the pain bodies is because unlike Jiraiyas genjutsu it causes psycholoical trauma as seen in the case of Itachi and Sasuke. It focuses on causin Pain to the opponents psyche/mind/spirit which subsequently leads to real physical pain. The pain bodies have no pysche of their own and thats why Tsukuyomi will be ineffective. Jirayas genjutsu worked on them because it actually took control of an aspect the bodies needed for movement. Itachis genjutsu doesnt do that.

If Itachi literally kills them inside that world it wont have any real life effect on the bodies cuz they are already dead. As Kisame said, Tsukuyumi is focused on breakin a persons spirit (which could also be called psyche). The Pain bodies have no spirit at all and are just bein animated.

also nagato was never shown to be affected b any illusion so im not sure what u mean there. As i said Tsukuyumi is based on direct eye contact and since nagato certainly wont be making direct eye contact with itachi it certainl wont affect him and neither will it affect any of the other bodies not makin direct eye contact with him

No, Itachi's tsukiyomi isn't just "psychological trauma" that's just something he CHOSE to do with Sasuke, Itachi could have done ANYTHING he wanted to Sasuke, he could've simply made him lose conciousness, he could've severed all the nerves in his body, he could've simply killed him in the world of tsukiyomi.

The bodies have nerves and they can be affected, as it was proven by Jiraiya. Itachi's genjutsu works on eye-contact, it's almost as if his eyes hypnotize the person. So if all of the bodies look into Itachi's eyes, they'll feel the effects. It doesn't have to be direct eye-contact, you simply just have to look into his eyes. Like if Kabuto with his glasses looked into Itachi's eyes, it'll still affect him. It's like i said, almost like hypnotism. If what you said were true, then everyone fighting a sharingan user would just wear glasses and not be affected by genjutsu because they aren't making "direct" eye contact.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, Itachi's tsukiyomi isn't just "psychological trauma" that's just something he CHOSE to do with Sasuke, Itachi could have done ANYTHING he wanted to Sasuke, he could've simply made him lose conciousness, he could've severed all the nerves in his body, he could've simply killed him in the world of tsukiyomi.

The bodies have nerves and they can be affected, as it was proven by Jiraiya. Itachi's genjutsu works on eye-contact, it's almost as if his eyes hypnotize the person. So if all of the bodies look into Itachi's eyes, they'll feel the effects. It doesn't have to be direct eye-contact, you simply just have to look into his eyes. Like if Kabuto with his glasses looked into Itachi's eyes, it'll still affect him. It's like i said, almost like hypnotism. If what you said were true, then everyone fighting a sharingan user would just wear glasses and not be affected by genjutsu because they aren't making "direct" eye contact.

Actually according to Kisame and according to what weve seen it do, it is focused on causing pyschological trauma. It is used in order to "break the opponents spirit" and that tells us evrything we need to know about the technique

And yes it does have to be direct eye contact. Ur kabuto example doesnt apply here because Kabutos physical eyes are still makin contact with Itachis regardless of the glasses. That is not the case at all with the pain bodies. Heck nagato is not even present in the battlefield so how will itachi extend his chakra towards him in order to ensnare him in the genjutsu? Thats definitely not happening.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Actually according to Kisame and according to what weve seen it do, it is focused on causing pyschological trauma. It is used in order to "break the opponents spirit" and that tells us evrything we need to know about the technique

And yes it does have to be direct eye contact. Ur kabuto example doesnt apply here because Kabutos physical eyes are still makin contact with Itachis regardless of the glasses. That is not the case at all with the pain bodies. Heck nagato is not even present in the battlefield so how will itachi extend his chakra towards him in order to ensnare him in the genjutsu? Thats definitely not happening.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Actually according to Kisame and according to what weve seen it do, it is focused on causing pyschological trauma. It is used in order to "break the opponents spirit" and that tells us evrything we need to know about the technique

And yes it does have to be direct eye contact. Ur kabuto example doesnt apply here because Kabutos physical eyes are still makin contact with Itachis regardless of the glasses. That is not the case at all with the pain bodies. Heck nagato is not even present in the battlefield so how will itachi extend his chakra towards him in order to ensnare him in the genjutsu? Thats definitely not happening.

Who's to say Nagato cannot have his spirit broken?

Kabuto's physical eyes aren't making direct eye contact, he's looking through glasses, there's something inbetween kabuto's eyes and itachi, therefore its not "direct". Nagato's chakra IS connected to the bodies, they all flow to Nagato.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Who's to say Nagato cannot have his spirit broken?

Kabuto's physical eyes aren't making direct eye contact, he's looking through glasses, there's something inbetween kabuto's eyes and itachi, therefore its not "direct". Nagato's chakra IS connected to the bodies, they all flow to Nagato.

Nagato wont have his spirit broken because the jutsu wont get to him in the first place.

Kabutos eyes and Itachis eyes are still making contact. There may be something inbetween, but the glasses are clear and his physical eyes are still lookin into Itachis physical eyes. That is in no way the same as those who physical eyes are not at all makin contact with Itachi (pain bodies) let alone Nagato who is not even present in that location. To think that Itachi can somehow extend his chakra into the Pain bodies and through the nagatos own chakra transmitters to reach nagato in order to control him is extreme reachin and not supported by anythin at all.

Why wouldn't it get to him in the first place?

No they're not making direct contact, there is something in the way. It has been said that the sharingan puts people under a hypnosis. Therefore its looking into the eyes which puts them under that. It's not shooting an invisible chakra laser into the opponent. It's hypnosis which causes the opponents chakra to disrupt. Then under that hypnosis, Itachi is free to do whatever he wants. That's why anyone just looking into the sharingan will be affected, and glasses wouldn't save them either because theyre still looking into the persons eyes.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Why wouldn't it get to him in the first place?

No they're not making direct contact, there is something in the way. It has been said that the sharingan puts people under a hypnosis. Therefore its looking into the eyes which puts them under that. It's not shooting an invisible chakra laser into the opponent. It's hypnosis which causes the opponents chakra to disrupt. Then under that hypnosis, Itachi is free to do whatever he wants. That's why anyone just looking into the sharingan will be affected, and glasses wouldn't save them either because theyre still looking into the persons eyes.

Thats the way all Genjutsu's are performed including those performed by the sharigan. Its not Hypnosis. Likely in Itachis case, his chakra is extended into his opponents body upon contact with their physical eyes. Theirs is simply no way he can affect nagato who is not even in the arena. Thats in no way the same scenario as kabuto wearing glasses as kabuto is making physical eye contact with Itachi still.

No.. i think you're confusing that with cancelling a genjutsu, in which your ally has to extend their chakra into the opponents body (in which they need to be physically touching)

"Genjutsu (»ÃÐg ?, lit. "illusion techniques"😉 are techniques that use the chakra in the victim's nervous system to create illusions. The most commonly seen genjutsu in the series is the simple creation of phantasms ¨C causing the targeted person(s) to hear, see, smell, taste or feel sensations that are not actually there in order to manipulate them. Most genjutsu affects the five senses, though other applications of genjutsu exist. Those under the influence of genjutsu either freeze in place or lose consciousness, depending on how capable they are in recognizing and defending against it. A genjutsu can be broken in one of three ways. The first is "genjutsu cancel" (»ÃÐg½â ,genjutsu kai?), a disruption of the victim's chakra flow either by themselves or their allies.[16] Pain that is not a result of the genjutsu, such as stabbing oneself, is a second method of countering genjutsu. Finally, if the caster of the genjutsu loses focus for whatever reason, the jutsu will end and the victim is freed.[17]"

As stated by Zabuza, when he gets caught in sharingan genjutsu he stated as being "hypnotized".

The woman who was under Itachi's control against Jiraiya was under "hypnosis".

That's why looking into a sharingans eyes in dangerous, direct contact or even indirect with glasses.

You don't literally shoot invisible chakra lasers into your opponent lol.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No.. i think you're confusing that with cancelling a genjutsu, in which your ally has to extend their chakra into the opponents body (in which they need to be physically touching)

"Genjutsu (»ÃÐg ?, lit. "illusion techniques"😉 are techniques that use the chakra in the victim's nervous system to create illusions. The most commonly seen genjutsu in the series is the simple creation of phantasms ¨C causing the targeted person(s) to hear, see, smell, taste or feel sensations that are not actually there in order to manipulate them. Most genjutsu affects the five senses, though other applications of genjutsu exist. Those under the influence of genjutsu either freeze in place or lose consciousness, depending on how capable they are in recognizing and defending against it. A genjutsu can be broken in one of three ways. The first is "genjutsu cancel" (»ÃÐg½â ,genjutsu kai?), a disruption of the victim's chakra flow either by themselves or their allies.[16] Pain that is not a result of the genjutsu, such as stabbing oneself, is a second method of countering genjutsu. Finally, if the caster of the genjutsu loses focus for whatever reason, the jutsu will end and the victim is freed.[17]"

As stated by Zabuza, when he gets caught in sharingan genjutsu he stated as being "hypnotized".

The woman who was under Itachi's control against Jiraiya was under "hypnosis".

That's why looking into a sharingans eyes in dangerous, direct contact or even indirect with glasses.

You don't literally shoot invisible chakra lasers into your opponent lol.

It can be described as hypnosis because of the hallucinations it causes, but it DOES occur by extending ur chakra into ur opponent. Thats how all genjutsu works. Proof seen here

http://www.leafninja.com/genjutsu.php

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Genjutsu

You take control of your opponents chakra by extendin urs into theirs. In the case of the sharingan there is no way to do such if physical eyecontact is not being made let alone if the person is not even in the battlefield.

Originally posted by Naija boy
It can be described as hypnosis because of the hallucinations it causes, but it DOES occur by extending ur chakra into ur opponent. Thats how all genjutsu works. Proof seen here

http://www.leafninja.com/genjutsu.php

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Genjutsu

You take control of your opponents chakra by extendin urs into theirs. In the case of the sharingan there is no way to do such if physical eyecontact is not being made let alone if the person is not even in the battlefield.

"Proof"

there are three explanations for genjutus, the first was explained by shikamaru/the sound nin with flute/jiraya's toads. its how the five senses can be used to trick the opponent's mind into thinking sumthing was there when it isnt. the second is an attack on the chakra circulatory system all the way to the brain and affecting it to affect your perception which jiraya told naruto to do against itachi. the last was itachi's tsukiyomi which he described as a direct attack on the soul of the subject covered in layers of pain which cudnt be broken free of and like sasuke and kakashi, it actually caused PHYSICAL harm to the person. itachi clone put naruto under a genjutsu when he was intentionally not looking simply by pointing a finger at him and his chakra trick didnt work on it either. also, the being in the field of view is a myth, in the chuunin exams, the weird snorkel dudes used a permanent proximity genjutsu against the whole team which made them go in circles without any such limitation. urochimaru's troops put the entire stadium to sleep without any specific eye contact/sound/touch etc. the second hokage's gnjutsu against the third{eternal darkness} was also proximity based as after he was devoured by the death god, even people on the outside noted how the darkness disappeared.

AND, pain said that the same move wudnt work against him twice when toad pa tried to use jiraya's genjutsu on him again with naruto.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

AND, pain said that the same move wudnt work against him twice when toad pa tried to use jiraya's genjutsu on him again with naruto.

Although the bodies are dead they are given all of their senses when pein rejuvenates them so genjutsu should work.

The genjutsu doesn't effect Nagato though..Or Jiraiya would've won, and lived. And never known about Nagato or anything. And while they might effect the performance of the body, and my disrupt the chakra he's using as it messes up with chakra, stopping the chakra from the bodies would end the genjutsu as it has no chakra to use against the body so he'd be able to reconnect the chakra flow and be fine.

Though that's just my assumption on it.

Originally posted by Kento
The genjutsu doesn't effect Nagato though..Or Jiraiya would've won, and lived. And never known about Nagato or anything. And while they might effect the performance of the body, and my disrupt the chakra he's using as it messes up with chakra, stopping the chakra from the bodies would end the genjutsu as it has no chakra to use against the body so he'd be able to reconnect the chakra flow and be fine.

Though that's just my assumption on it.

If that were the case he wouldnt need that other body to revive the fallen bodies. He could just disrupt the chakra flow and connect it back

Originally posted by yungz22
If that were the case he wouldnt need that other body to revive the fallen bodies. He could just disrupt the chakra flow and connect it back

No, when that other body revives the fallen bodies it is to heal physical damage to the pain bodies.