Pain vs Akatsuki and the Sannin

No, it's because Tsukiyomi is on a different level of genjutsu then Jiraiyas. Jiraiya/Tayuya, was once the sound waves enters the ear, the victim is under genjutsu. while Itachi is whoever makes eye contact with him is under the hypnosis.

Also, how do we know Nagato wasn't effected by Jiraiya's genjutsu? He knew he was under the spell, and he saw what was in the genjutsu illusion, as soon as he caught one, all of them were trapped. He didn't/couldn't summon the other bodies until the genjutsu was dispelled. If he could have done something, why didn't he just summon the rest of his bodies as soon as the 3 were caught, which would've saved his bodies from possibly being destroyed.

If Pains body was caught, Itachi could destroy all the nerves, and literally kill the bodies, or make them useless. Remeber, it happens instantly, and is over instantly.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, it's because Tsukiyomi is on a different level of genjutsu then Jiraiyas. Jiraiya/Tayuya, was once the sound waves enters the ear, the victim is under genjutsu. while Itachi is whoever makes eye contact with him is under the hypnosis.

Also, how do we know Nagato wasn't effected by Jiraiya's genjutsu? He knew he was under the spell, and he saw what was in the genjutsu illusion, as soon as he caught one, all of them were trapped. He didn't/couldn't summon the other bodies until the genjutsu was dispelled. If he could have done something, why didn't he just summon the rest of his bodies as soon as the 3 were caught, which would've saved his bodies from possibly being destroyed.

If Pains body was caught, Itachi could destroy all the nerves, and literally kill the bodies, or make them useless. Remeber, it happens instantly, and is over instantly.

Tsukuyomi still relies on extending hi chakra to control others like all genjutsu. And it wont work on those not making physical eye contact with him. Weve seen nothing to show that it will.

For one Nagato couldnt have been affected by Jiraiyas genjutsu because he didnt hear the song in the firt place.He didnt summon the other bodies till the genjutsu was dispelled, it doesnt mean he couldnt. He was never actually in trouble in his fight against Jiraiya anyways since reviving the bodies was quite easy for him.

Tsukuyumi i an attack that affects the psyche/spirit. He cant replicate the effects of Jiraiyas Genjutsu.

I gave you the kabuto example where he's not making physical eye contact, yet it would still affect him.

Sure Nagato heard the song, Nagato hears what his bodies hear. He most likely saw what the bodies saw in the illusion. He knows genjutsu doesn't last forever, he could've just waited until the genjutsu was dispelled before he summoned the other bodies. Which is what he did. He didn't summon the bodies when his other bodies were in a pinch. He waited until the genjutsu was dispelled.

The thing about the sharingan mangekyou is that it really is hypnotism, when people look into its eyes

The translation of tsukiyomi from the Databook:

Tsukuyomi description: (this is the bottom right)
Within the Sharingan's telepathic and hypnotical powers, the greatest genjutsu was created out of hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. On this earth, people are subject to things like time, gravity and air, and the people who can maximize their abilities are the ones who decide who is the winner and loser. However, Tsukuyomi gives the user the ability to drag his opponent to an imaginary world that the user builds, and restricts him in it.
Common sense does not apply in this imaginary world like it does in the real world. There is no possibilty of dispelling this genjutsu. People caught in this genjutsu do not know when this imaginary world will end, and the user controls everything. He shows them the punishment of hell. It makes the person caught in it crazy. Even if you are strong enough to break rocks, or fast as lightning, it matters not before this technique....that's why this technique is feared.

(Top Left)
The owner of the title of"The Greatest Clan" the Uchiha clan's bloodline limit Sharingan. Within them only those at the top level with the "Mangekyo Sharingan" can use this technique. At the same time, only those with Sharingan can dispell Tsukuyomi... only special level shinobis can use this. Only those blood relatives of the Uchiha clan who are blessed with talent can recieve this heavenly technique"

Originally posted by Terryc250
I gave you the kabuto example where he's not making physical eye contact, yet it would still affect him.

Sure Nagato heard the song, Nagato hears what his bodies hear. He most likely saw what the bodies saw in the illusion. He knows genjutsu doesn't last forever, he could've just waited until the genjutsu was dispelled before he summoned the other bodies. Which is what he did. He didn't summon the bodies when his other bodies were in a pinch. He waited until the genjutsu was dispelled.

The thing about the sharingan mangekyou is that it really is hypnotism, when people look into its eyes

The translation of tsukiyomi from the Databook:

Tsukuyomi description: (this is the bottom right)
Within the Sharingan's telepathic and hypnotical powers, the greatest genjutsu was created out of hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. On this earth, people are subject to things like time, gravity and air, and the people who can maximize their abilities are the ones who decide who is the winner and loser. However, Tsukuyomi gives the user the ability to drag his opponent to an imaginary world that the user builds, and restricts him in it.
Common sense does not apply in this imaginary world like it does in the real world. There is no possibilty of dispelling this genjutsu. People caught in this genjutsu do not know when this imaginary world will end, and the user controls everything. He shows them the punishment of hell. It makes the person caught in it crazy. Even if you are strong enough to break rocks, or fast as lightning, it matters not before this technique....that's why this technique is feared.

(Top Left)
The owner of the title of"The Greatest Clan" the Uchiha clan's bloodline limit Sharingan. Within them only those at the top level with the "Mangekyo Sharingan" can use this technique. At the same time, only those with Sharingan can dispell Tsukuyomi... only special level shinobis can use this. Only those blood relatives of the Uchiha clan who are blessed with talent can recieve this heavenly technique"

The Kabuto example is not analogous with this at all. Kabutos physical eyes are still lookin directly into Itachis physical eyes which is the point. That is NOT going to be happening here seeing as Nagato isnt even in the battlefield in the first place.

Also for Jiraiyas genjustsu to have worked, the waves coming out of their mouths actually have to enter the beings physical ears(we saw the waves entering the pain bodies ears). It cant work on someone who is not even present. We know this is true because like ALL genjutsu it relies on extending ur own chakra flow in order to disrupt ur opponents. This is not possible if ur opponent is not even in the battlefield.

The mangekyou sharingan is Genjutsu and so works like all other genjutsu. That method of operation in itself is what makes it impossible to work on nagato. Posting the description of it is pointless and adds nothing here. Infact in the decription it refers to the Genjutsu making the person crazy which indicates its focus on the psyche/spirit of a person which has been confirmed on panel by Kisame. The fact that the pain bodies are dead and have no psyche to affect further reduces its effectiveness and usefulness here.

Oh this magna proves that God realm cant beat the team on his own look at how good naruto is doing on his own he is even about to kill him in the next chapter

You do realize Naruto is fighting a Pein who has been using jutsu after jutsu. Even when Naruto had first shown up Pein wasn't exactly at 100% and has still been using big jutsu's right after the other. The fight would be going very different now if Nagato hadn't of used a huge Shinra Tensei to destroy Konoha.

Originally posted by yungz22
Oh this magna proves that God realm cant beat the team on his own look at how good naruto is doing on his own he is even about to kill him in the next chapter

Not at all. Naruto started fighting a very weakened Pain thanks to the shinra tensei he had used on konoha. When he started fighting Godrealm fullpowered there were numerous times in which Godrealm could have killed him had he been so inclined intead of giving him lectures about Pain and whatnot. Currently godrealm is weakened again and thats the only reason naruto is doing well at all.

Actually chakra can be extended through the rods, read the last chapter? Naruto's chakra went into Pain's body, which showed Naruto's eyes above Nagato. Which is more proof that perhaps Nagato did get affected by Jiraiya's jutsu as well, which is why he couldn't/didn't summon the bodies when Jiraiya was putting swords through his other bodies.

If Itachi's tsukiyomi chakra goes through the bodies, it reaches Nagato as well.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Tsukuyomi still relies on extending hi chakra to control others like all genjutsu. And it wont work on those not making physical eye contact with him. Weve seen nothing to show that it will.

For one Nagato couldnt have been affected by Jiraiyas genjutsu because he didnt hear the song in the firt place.He didnt summon the other bodies till the genjutsu was dispelled, it doesnt mean he couldnt. He was never actually in trouble in his fight against Jiraiya anyways since reviving the bodies was quite easy for him.

Tsukuyumi i an attack that affects the psyche/spirit. He cant replicate the effects of Jiraiyas Genjutsu.

no, tsukiyomi is an attack on the SOUL, its different. and seeing that even itachi clone using a normal genjutsu cud put naruto under its spell when he wasnt even looking, simply by pointing a finger, and that naruto was unable to break free of i even by stopping his chakra says otherwise.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Actually chakra can be extended through the rods, read the last chapter? Naruto's chakra went into Pain's body, which showed Naruto's eyes above Nagato. Which is more proof that perhaps Nagato did get affected by Jiraiya's jutsu as well, which is why he couldn't/didn't summon the bodies when Jiraiya was putting swords through his other bodies.

If Itachi's tsukiyomi chakra goes through the bodies, it reaches Nagato as well.

It never mentioned that naruot chakra went into Pains body. The rods are what pain uses to pass his chakra into his bodies. When naruto stabbed himself with it the chakra went into him and he was able to trace the chakra back to Nagato because he was in sage mode. That incident has no bearings on Itachi ad Tsukuyumi and doesnt prove at all that Pain was affected by Jiaraiyas genjutsu

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no, tsukiyomi is an attack on the SOUL, its different. and seeing that even itachi clone using a normal genjutsu cud put naruto under its spell when he wasnt even looking, simply by pointing a finger, and that naruto was unable to break free of i even by stopping his chakra says otherwise.

Tsukuyumi is an attack on the spirit/soul whatever and so? It has never been mentioned to work different from other genjutsu and therefore still operates by extendin chakra. ITachis clone didnt put naruto in Tsukuyumi. He even said that in that weakend state he couldnt even use the manekyou sharingan because it used so much chakra. All he did was put naruto in a normal genjutsu and because of naruots horrendous chakra control he couldnt break out. That incident is also irrelevant here

Originally posted by Naija boy
It never mentioned that naruot chakra went into Pains body. The rods are what pain uses to pass his chakra into his bodies. When naruto stabbed himself with it the chakra went into him and he was able to trace the chakra back to Nagato because he was in sage mode. That incident has no bearings on Itachi ad Tsukuyumi and doesnt prove at all that Pain was affected by Jiaraiyas genjutsu

How else would Naruto know where Pain is? What would be the point of stabbing himself? Their chakra connected. Remeber when Pain disrupts his opponents chakra with the rods, it shows Pains eyes above the character. WHen Naruto used the rod, Naruto's eyes went above Nagato. Most likely Byakugen, Sharingan, Sage Mode, cannot see the chakra unless their own chakra is connected to it, that's why Naruto needed to stab himself, and then he was capable of tracing it back. There's also no proof that Nagato was not affected by Jiraiya's genjutsu.

Originally posted by Terryc250
How else would Naruto know where Pain is? What would be the point of stabbing himself? Their chakra connected. Remeber when Pain disrupts his opponents chakra with the rods, it shows Pains eyes above the character. WHen Naruto used the rod, Naruto's eyes went above Nagato. Most likely Byakugen, Sharingan, Sage Mode, cannot see the chakra unless their own chakra is connected to it, that's why Naruto needed to stab himself, and then he was capable of tracing it back. There's also no proof that Nagato was not affected by Jiraiya's genjutsu.

Naruto used sage mode to trace Nagatos chakra back to his location as said by Nagato himself. So because naruto was in sage mode he was able to trace the flow of chakra coming in from nagato through the rod back to him. Theres is nothing that was shown in that manga that lends credence to anything else. Therefore I really dont know how u came up with all ur theories as they are currently unsupported by anything.

And further, there is no proof that Nagato was affected by Jirayas genjutsu. He was never shown during that period of time. The burden of proof therefore lie on u to prove he was affected since nothing of the sort was suggested. In addition, the nature of genjutsu in general supports the fact that he wasnt affected.

So then tell me, why would Naruto stab himself? What is the Naruto eyes above Peins head supposed to mean? When Jiraiya/Kakshi were stabbed, it showed Peins eyes above their heads, which meant Peins chakra is in them, did it not?

There's no proof that Nagato wasn't affected by Jiraiya's genjutsu, Nagato did see what was going on inside the genjutsu did he not? WHy didn't he help out his bodies when they were caught? Why could/did he not do anything until the genjutsu was over?

your basing your argument on eyes above a certain character?

well alright good luck with that

Originally posted by Terryc250
So then tell me, why would Naruto stab himself? What is the Naruto eyes above Peins head supposed to mean? When Jiraiya/Kakshi were stabbed, it showed Peins eyes above their heads, which meant Peins chakra is in them, did it not?

There's no proof that Nagato wasn't affected by Jiraiya's genjutsu, Nagato did see what was going on inside the genjutsu did he not? WHy didn't he help out his bodies when they were caught? Why could/did he not do anything until the genjutsu was over?

Your just making assumptions and speculations all over the place. It was never said what Pains eyes above a person meant. For all i know it could be illustration used for dramatic effect. Since nothing was mentioned about its specific meaning then its certainly not my job to decipher it. What was said is that Naruto traced nagatos chakra back to his location and this was something he was able to do because he was in sage mode. Thats what my argument is based off while urs is based off wild speculations.

There are many possible reasons why nagato didnt free his bodies. The one reason u are trying to selectively apply is one of the weakest since it goes against the nature of genjutsu itself. Nagato was never in danger in that fight and so he could have simply allowed it to go on in order to later on revive them and show Jiraiya the futility of his battle. Also God realm hardly did anything in that fight same with alot of the other Pain bodies. Clearly he was taking it easy the entire battle so another reason could be that he simply didnt feel threatened enough to interfere. Regardless of what the reason may be all are superior choices to the claim that nagato was affected because that is in itself not possible due to the actual process of how genjutsu is cast.

Yes but tell me what would be the purpose of him having to stab himself? How is this "speculation" ? It's a logical question. Naruto was in sage mode almost the entire fight, so? Whats the difference? "Dramatic effects" is just a petty excuse for not being able to find an explanation. We know when Pains eyes were above Kakashi, Jiraiya, was because of Pains chakra.

Not really, Nagato even said himself if Jiraiya knew his secret he would have lost. Now try explaining how Pain would have lost. If Jiraiya knew his secret he would have destroyed Pains bodies, putting them totally out of comission. Now, the only way Jiraiya could have done that is if Pain was unable to do anything while under the effects of genjutsu. If you think Nagato wasn't affected by genjutsu, then try explaining how Jiraiya could win.

Pein's secret is Nagato...If he found out they were puppets and found Nagato he'd win. Or the fact he can only be so far away from them so if he found that out he could just lead them away from Nagato. What does that have to do with genjutsu on Pein's bodies? And the genjutsu paralyzes the body...which means right away it be useless on Nagato as he doesn't need to move...And also we have no idea how far the bodies were from where Jiraiya fought the three..And Animal Realm was paralyzed. So Nagato's other bodies would have to get there by running or walking..And it's not like they would need to hurry. Surprise Jiraiya, revive the bodies, fight some more. It's not like the three being beaten are going to harm Pein any.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Yes but tell me what would be the purpose of him having to stab himself? How is this "speculation" ? It's a logical question. Naruto was in sage mode almost the entire fight, so? Whats the difference? "Dramatic effects" is just a petty excuse for not being able to find an explanation. We know when Pains eyes were above Kakashi, Jiraiya, was because of Pains chakra.

Not really, Nagato even said himself if Jiraiya knew his secret he would have lost. Now try explaining how Pain would have lost. If Jiraiya knew his secret he would have destroyed Pains bodies, putting them totally out of comission. Now, the only way Jiraiya could have done that is if Pain was unable to do anything while under the effects of genjutsu. If you think Nagato wasn't affected by genjutsu, then try explaining how Jiraiya could win.

Stabbing himself was for to get access to Pains chakra so that he could trace it back to him. We know that this was possible particularly because naruto was in sage mode as Nagato explained. That all that happened. Naruto traced Pains chakra back to him end of story. You are ignoring what was stated and trying to infer something never suggested. We DO NOT know why Pains eyes appear over the persons body.Further, neither do we know if narutos eyes appearing above Nagato signified the same thing in the first place. It has never been explicitly stated at all. As i said ur simply reaching and speculating about things never mentioned and trying to use it to support ur wild theory. Heck even if we decide to indulge in baseless speculation the argument still lacks substance. Pains eyes have been shown to appear above another being body when he is disrupting their chakra. Yet when naruto's eyes appeared above Nagato, naruto didnt dirupt nagatos chakra.All he did was trace the chakra back to him. In other words, he simply followed the trail of chakra back to its source. Hence what he and nagato were doing were fundamentally different in the firt place.

And no its very clear how Jiraiya would have defeated nagato. He would have directly gone after nagatos body without struggling with the bodies. Or tried to get the bodies out of range of nagatos chakra transmitters. That had absolutely nothing to do with Jiraiya performing genjutsu at all. The level of reaching u did to get to that conclusion is astounding.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Tsukuyumi is an attack on the spirit/soul whatever and so? It has never been mentioned to work different from other genjutsu and therefore still operates by extendin chakra. ITachis clone didnt put naruto in Tsukuyumi. He even said that in that weakend state he couldnt even use the manekyou sharingan because it used so much chakra. All he did was put naruto in a normal genjutsu and because of naruots horrendous chakra control he couldnt break out. That incident is also irrelevant here

actually, it was said to be undispellable, which means that it CANT be dispelled by chakra control. only with sasuke's sharingan was it overcome. and even kakashi who does NOT have horrendous chakra control cudnt dispell it with that technique.