Banks steered blacks to bad loans, NAACP says

Originally posted by chithappens

Hell, even I'm a "traitor" for going to college. Me getting an education will never be celebrated by most that I grew up with. That's the culture.

Black people just need to do what they want or feel they need instead of worrying about what the others in the culture will say.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Your youtube thingy is not working. It says invalid username.

Hmm, I'll hvae to fix that when I get back on campus. Everything @ home on dial up is such a hassle...

Originally posted by jalek moye
I said **** the culture years ago, when they were all aginst me for being different and called a poser because I wear martial arts uniforms as normal clothes, listen to metal, straighten my hair, and am of a pagan faith.

Black people just need to do what they want or feel they need instead of worrying about what the others in the culture will say.

If that's all you are around then it's all you know to respect. No different than a white super conservative Christian who still feels that Bin Laden and Hussein were bar buddies. We all have to face that in our lives to some degree, no matter our background.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I read this again, and a couple things stuck out as being not quite right.

Here you may have simply misarticulated your points or simply suffered a case of dyslexia: The NAACP is upset at too many bad loans to blacks, not too many denied. It isn't a systematic denial of rights, it is a systematic con job (they argue).

When adjusted for disparities in economic trends (like the huge over representation of blacks in the lower economic classes), the statistics show that black borrowers were more likely to be given a sub-prime loan than white people in the same situation. This indicates (to the NAACP) that banks deliberately gave black people bad loans.

No, what I said was correct. It was speculative.

If there was an increase in loans GRANTED to African Americans during this period, in order for the banking industry to provide a justification of innocence, they would have to present evidence of an increase in APPLICATIONS nad produce evidence of a proportional increase in DENIALS. (Emphasis added to show where my focus was. I assure you, I'm not yelling. lol )

Also, I would suspect a greater increase of denials if there was an increase of application. But the deciding factor is number proportions. If denials stayed in proportion, per capita, then there is nothing to see here, folks. Move along. (lol)

However, I know that that is not the case. More bad loans were given out during this period. SO the real measurement would have to be the average loan recipient's "metrics" measured against the average African Americans "metrics". That would be the best way to see if this is more whining or if it holds weight.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
It seems reasonable that blacks would tend to have lower credit scores, as a whole, than other groups. Blacks are over represented in the poor community and unless I'm missing something (like a basic understanding of how credit scores are figured) poverty would have a causal relationship to bad credit scores. (A credit card bill is a lot lower priority than food, gas and water. Given the choice between lights or paying 'now' most people, even the most educated, would opt to maintain services while continuing to defer payments.)

So:
Poverty leads to poor credit scores
Blacks tend to have a disproportionate number of poor people
Blacks therefore would tend to have a disproportionate number of poor credit ratings

Am I wrong?

So, where does personal responsibility come in and blaming it on social phenomena end?

You can be very poor and still have excellent credit. You just have to manage your debts properly, which has nothing to do with education. If your bill is due on date XX, you pay your bill before date XX. Now, there are other factors such as exceeding a third of your credit line or having a high debt to income ratio, however, if one just pays their bills on time, every time without going overboard on credit lines and canceling credit lines left and right, a very poor person could build a very nice credit score.

Trust me. I made less than 20K a year and had a credit score over 760 with all three major credit bureaus, as a 20 year old. I came form a "poor family".

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
See, here is another place where you lose me. You are blaming 'black culture' for the relatively large numbers of poor credit scores and defaults on loans rather than the more direct sociological trends:
Black males tend to drop out of school more than any other ethnicity.

Okay...

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Black people are more likely to drop out and therefore make less money.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104552.html
A greater percentage of the black population lies below 5,000$/year than any other (tracked) ethnicity as of 2006. Also, Blacks had the lowest median income of any tracked group.

Okay...

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
We know that blacks have less money. This will only mean anything if I can link poverty to lack of education:
[URL=http://povertynewsblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/stark-link-between-poverty-and-failure.html]

This is talking about poor students: they cannot be poor because they slacked in school or were simply incompetent. The poverty is causing the shortcomings in performance.

Okay...

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
There. To blame the large numbers of defaulted loans and poor credit scores within the black community on the culture of a 'strong (black) woman' is patently absurd.

Wait wait..

You just spent quite a bit of time proving my point about African Americans...so I'm confused. How is a poor credit score any ones fault but the owner of the credit score? You can tell me about it being a "white" system all you want...but it's rather absurd to blame a poor credit score on anyone but the person. The bad loan is the fault of two parties: the recipient and the lender.

And the women diatribe was pretty much unrelated to what I was talking about. I don't really get back on track until I start talking about delinquent accounts. Again, really just an unrelated diatribe.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Of course, if you wanted to damn the intellectually oppressive culture of the lowest economic classes, rather than the strong individualistic characteristics of these cultures I'd probably join in. If you continue along this route however I can and will shout "Cultural Imperialism" at the top of my lungs. Let's not make a scene, ok?

What does this have to do with your all too relevant points on African Americans failing themselves as a result of their very only social behaviors and social norms?

That's what I thought.

Now, we both agree that there is a malfunction in African American culture in general...as it concerns money and it's many different associations (money as a function of credit score, money as a function of savings, money as a function of education, etc.), just what should be done is where we probably disagree. I think the African American culture needs an overhaul concerning money and education. One or two successful African Americans won't be enough.

However, I think Obama is an excellent example. He is spending like a mad man, but I like him as a person. When asked if he smoked weed and if he inhaled, he said, "yeah, that's kinda the point." 😄

Maybe it will take the Hispanic immigrants pushing them further into economic and educational deficiencies (relative to the rest of the US and world) before they experience cultural paradigm shift.

😮‍💨

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I don't think that you get to 'cue' anything. 😠
😛
This article does not actually say how many were turned away. We can't really ascertain those numbers without divine insight or pure guessing (or extra research, I suppose).

That information should exist. Those records are very necessary to gauge business volume, trending analysis (still, business), staffing, etc.

Keeping the records on file for previously turned away applicants is also an excellent way to pick right where they left off, with the customer, in case they come back with an additional proposal.

I would assume that this data is part of the defense against the accusations, if those accusations are even being given the time of day. I say that last part because the type of whining associated with the accusation may not even be dignified in court. It may just be ignored. OR, it could be more discrimination...not given this case very much time because they simply don't care about that people.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
The article says that a black person was more likely to get a bad loan than a white person in the same situation. I don't know if I'm comfortable saying that there were just more black loans (and more opportunities for bad black loans) than white loans because blacks are a minority. While there is a systematic trend towards black poverty, there are still fewer poor black people than poor white people.

Well, it says "more likely", right?

I want to see numbers. I want to see total applicants. A distribution based on loan qualification factors, loans granted and denied based on race demographics, and the amounts of the loans granted based on race demographics.

If that data is presented, then we can draw conclusions.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Wikipedia claims 221.3 million White people. The census Bureau claims 8.2 percent poverty among that group. This translates to 18,146,600 poor white people. Those same sites call for 40.9 million black people and 24.5 percent, respectively. This translates to 10,020,500 poor black people. 18,146,600 >>>>> 10,020,500. By a lot. I doubt that more black people getting bad loans caused the discrepancy in distribution.

No, I think those numbers are telling. If, in equal numbers, randomly, African Americans and say, whites, applied for loans at the same value, and the lenders gave out loans to a percentage of all applicants, then we would see MORE loans given to bad applicants on the African American side of the race coin. From what I read about the loan practices.....they were going for a specific volume in lending. Granting on the fly like there was no tomorrow.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm going to have to remember that you aren't the jewish texan that I usually debate here. You'll have to forgive me if I make assumptions about you.

But no problem. Srsly.

Cool.

In all honesty, I don't think we disagree, all that much.

I think where we disagree is what should be done.

I like to take the "Zen" approach and say that the change has to come from within the african american subculture and not from the government.

To put it another way, America shouldn't change and/or adapt for African Americans, African Americans should change and/or adapt for America.

It would seem Chithappens is in agreement with me. In fact, he knows exactly what I'm referring to and he is even harder on African Americans than I am. However, he is like that for good reason. Here he is, bustin' his butt, whilst his race is still wallowing in mediocrity or worse. Then they have the audacity to blame their problems on others while he is doing the very thing they say they can't because "the man has got them down" or something. On top of that, they make snide comments when someone starts to make it in the world...such as getting education or getting a nice job. How is that helpful at all?

I mean...really....12 million illegal immigrants can't be wrong. Maybe they should work 2 and 3 jobs or work full time and go to school full time like the rest of the poor people trying to make it in this world. There is more and better opportunities for African Americans who want to make than there are for whitey. This is fact.

I have much greater respect for someone genuinely trying and little to no respect for someone complaining and doing little to nothing. You can only blame so much on "the man" before it is your own damn fault.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
They clearly adjusted their formulas or data input for the economic similarities that they were looking for. Computers can make some crazy correlations and so some sh*t. I saw a machine counting cells. Srsly. 😐 CELLS. It was also sorting them by the amount of DNA in them.

Sorry. My bad. My question was rhetorical. That smart assery of mine doesn't come through without tone of voice.

Again, my bad.

I was implying that the article was bias because they drew conclusions that shouldn't have been drawn without the appropriate data. This is the original of my "confusion." You can make data say anything you want...depending on which data you use, and how you use it.

Originally posted by jalek moye
I said **** the culture years ago, when they were all aginst me for being different and called a poser because I wear martial arts uniforms as normal clothes, listen to metal, straighten my hair, and am of a pagan faith.

Black people just need to do what they want or feel they need instead of worrying about what the others in the culture will say.

Well, that's just being an individual. If your peers want to get you down just for choosing to look and act a certain way, then they are stupid buttholes. (lol)

You seem like cool people to me. I fail to see why anyone would hate someone for liking Hulk and his descendants. (yes, I noticed.)

I've got extra respect for Chithappens for working hard despite what his peers tell him. No one can take that hard work that you or he has done already. That's something anyone should be proud of.

Originally posted by dadudemon

To put it another way, America shouldn't change and/or adapt for African Americans, African Americans should change and/or adapt for America.

It would seem Chithappens is in agreement with me. In fact, he knows exactly what I'm referring to and he is even harder on African Americans than I am. However, he is like that for good reason. Here he is, bustin' his butt, whilst his race is still wallowing in mediocrity or worse. Then they have the audacity to blame their problems on others while he is doing the very thing they say they can't because "the man has got them down" or something. On top of that, they make snide comments when someone starts to make it in the world...such as getting education or getting a nice job. How is that helpful at all?

The problem I have with the NAACP and other similar organizations is that they bring attention to random tidbits of injustice without doing anything to alleviate the problem. It's not a bad idea to bring this issue to the forefront if it is truly a possibility that Black Americans were purposely given bad loans, but when all you are doing is saying i.e. "the man trying to screw us over" then everyone should have a problem with that. Seeing as how this is a democracy, it is the job of one culture to adjust to the majority and hope that the laws of the land prevail given that their intent to respect the rights of the individuals. Fiscal responsibility is an indiviual task.

Regarding the culture, I still feel for those who don't "make it." For example, I have a cousin who could draw manga with his pubic hair and make it rival anything from Berserk or other great art like Vagabond, but right now he is unemployed and has a child on the way. The guy is a visionary poet and a great people person... he ****ing up, but he never had the same oppurtunities I had. His parents were not as successful as mine and he never moved outside of the less fortunate areas of the city. It's one of the things that made me decide to become a teacher. Things happen... Sucks ass though

Originally posted by chithappens
Regarding the culture, I still feel for those who don't "make it." For example, I have a cousin who could draw manga with his pubic hair and make it rival anything from Berserk or other great art like Vagabond, but right now he is unemployed and has a child on the way. The guy is a visionary poet and a great people person... he ****ing up, but he never had the same oppurtunities I had. His parents were not as successful as mine and he never moved outside of the less fortunate areas of the city. It's one of the things that made me decide to become a teacher. Things happen... Sucks ass though

If only we had a culture that embraced artistic expression as much as it does the dollar.

Originally posted by inimalist
If only we had a culture that embraced artistic expression as much as it does the dollar.

I remember reading that Soviet Russia opposed both equally, at least in theory.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I remember reading that Soviet Russia opposed both equally, at least in theory.

in soviet russia, theory opposes you

That was funny,Yakov.

Originally posted by chithappens
Regarding the culture, I still feel for those who don't "make it." For example, I have a cousin who could draw manga with his pubic hair and make it rival anything from Berserk or other great art like Vagabond, but right now he is unemployed and has a child on the way. The guy is a visionary poet and a great people person... he ****ing up, but he never had the same oppurtunities I had. His parents were not as successful as mine and he never moved outside of the less fortunate areas of the city. It's one of the things that made me decide to become a teacher. Things happen... Sucks ass though

Damn. Well. That sounds quite crappy.

If he can draw manga really well, he could probably work in Japan. (However, he shouldn't expect to get paid beyond 60K) He may want to work in animation for anime. Being able to draw and getting paid to draw are two different things. I mean, his only other option is to invent and write his own manga/comic and get a publisher/distributor like DC, Marvel, etc.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Damn. Well. That sounds quite crappy.

If he can draw manga really well, he could probably work in Japan. (However, he shouldn't expect to get paid beyond 60K) He may want to work in animation for anime. Being able to draw and getting paid to draw are two different things. I mean, his only other option is to invent and write his own manga/comic and get a publisher/distributor like DC, Marvel, etc.

As with many things, it's simply who you know. I'm a Creative Writing concentration so I'm hoping that I can find a gig that can spawn something for him also. Time will tell.

There are a lot of stories like his by all sorts of people. One thing I agree about with Obama is that education must be a main priority for all Americans and then this sort of thing won't be commonplace (weither it be lost of great talent or being fiscally irresponsible).

Originally posted by chithappens
As with many things, it's simply who you know. I'm a Creative Writing concentration so I'm hoping that I can find a gig that can spawn something for him also. Time will tell.

There are a lot of stories like his by all sorts of people. One thing I agree about with Obama is that education must be a main priority for all Americans and then this sort of thing won't be commonplace (weither it be lost of great talent or being fiscally irresponsible).

I agree with Obama on that fully, as well. He knows how important an education is and how much more of a competitive edge it gives Americans.

Edit- Saying and doing are two different things, though.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree with Obama on that fully, as well. He knows how important an education is and how much more of a competitive edge it gives Americans.

Edit- Saying and doing are two different things, though.

Yeah, but trust me, people in education are just glad Bush is out of office. He cut education each of the past six years and No Child Left Behind was a disaster in it's current implementation. If Obama does a fifth of what he says, a lot of educators will be happy.

Even now, I'm tutoring these kids at a high school for an AP English class. What they don't know is that based on their performance in this essay assestment in three weeks will determine if the school will be taken over by the state.

Obama has said he plans to give every college student $2500 scholarship automatically which would be lovely cause my school goes up 9 % on tuition next semester.

My state, Tennessee, has been #48-50 in terms of education for the past 5 years. Any change is good. They celebrated not being #49 a few years back 🙁 .

In all honesty, I don't think we disagree, all that much. [+ the rest of your post...]

Oh. Ok.

Originally posted by jalek moye
I said **** the culture years ago, when they were all aginst me for being different and called a poser because I wear martial arts uniforms as normal clothes, listen to metal, straighten my hair, and am of a pagan faith.

Black people just need to do what they want or feel they need instead of worrying about what the others in the culture will say.

Looks like were into similar stuff. I wouldnt straighten my hair though. What pagan faith, wicca?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Looks like were into similar stuff. I wouldnt straighten my hair though. What pagan faith, wicca?

Euch

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Looks like were into similar stuff. I wouldnt straighten my hair though. What pagan faith, wicca?

I straighten my hair so i can spike it.

form my experiance black culture tends to not like too much diversity in its people. I still have no idea how i turned out like i did

Originally posted by jalek moye
the closest thing to it would be asatru

Same here actually except I could consider myself to be actually heathen.

Originally posted by jalek moye

form my experiance black culture tends to not like too much diversity in its people. I still have no idea how i turned out like i did

I dunno man but I serioulsy get the feeling you havent experienced alot of racism. Its obvoulsy due to the racism that black people have had to put up with over the generations. Obvously alot has changed but people dont change overnight.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Same here actually except I could consider myself to be actually heathen.

I dunno man but I serioulsy get the feeling you havent experienced alot of racism. Its obvoulsy due to the racism that black people have had to put up with over the generations. Obvously alot has changed but people dont change overnight.

Nope all my issues have been with my own race. The only encounter i've had with racis was one I had to sit next to a neo nazi in highschool. While people where i live say its a racist place i have really seen anything to indicate that other then people thinking that it hasnt changed.