The Infected (Left 4 Dead) vs. The Majini (Resident Evil 5)

Originally posted by Genesis
Canon of the game dictates and assumes the main players make it through each film without losses. This overrides gameplay mechanics. This would mean they've survived Tanks and have killed them. For example, there wouldn't be a "Dead Air" campaign if not for that cutscene in "Death Toll" and the survivors making it to the end, right? If the Tanks won (Canonically) no more survivors.

There has been no confirmation of each campaign being chronologically canon. As of this posting, each campaign are considered standalone.

Originally posted by Genesis
That's a lie. In the game, bullets do not bounce off of the tank. Why would anything else? What evidence do you have they will bounce off of him? Blood spurts from him when the bullets make contact. I'm pretty sure this means that bullets enter him.

I read the post you quoted, and in nowhere did I see him mention that the Tank was bulletproof. The Tank is described as bullet resistant, which is why it takes so many hits to go down, but not bulletproof. Bullets also have a greater degree of PSI than an axe, either thrown or swung. That is why I am unsure that axes would be very effective against Tanks.

Originally posted by Genesis
What the? You can't use game mechanics during a versus match-up.

Whoever originally posted the quote this is a response to, please try and refrain from using game mechanics as evidence.

Originally posted by Genesis
And? It would only take one well-placed Cephalo maturation to wipe out dozens upon dozens of infected.

How powerful are Cephalo maturations? I can understand a tentacle swiping and knocking down infected, but I don't see how it could do serious damage.

Originally posted by Genesis
They all have their parasites mature or they don't function as undead. Period. The Type 2 Plagas is already at a matured state when it enters it's host. Some do evolve into OTHER TYPES of Plagas forms but they're all matured.

It's not like the Majini where they sometimes transform. The dogs, after seconds, will transform. Always. Same with the hyenas. Why? The type 2 Plagas is ALREADY matured, as I've said a thousand times.

The Type 2 Plagas is already matured. I said this minutes ago. You might as well limit the Majini entirely because every single one already has a matured virus type in them.

How can it not be considered Majini? It is a host to the Type 2 Plagas. It's a descendant from El Gigante, which is a Las Plagas specimen.

The bolded words are what I mean when I speak of Matured Las Plagas. Had you checked the link I had put in the OP? It leads to a wiki article, where it separates the Majini from Matured Las Plagas. That is why I have been referring to them as such. As for Ndesu, any reference to El Gigante is moot, because this is solely Resident Evil 5 we're focusing on. Can you show me some evidence that Ndesu is a Majini that had their Plagas parasite mutate them so? If Ndesu was formed through more than just natural mutation (i.e. if there was any experimentation done to enhance the transformation) then it is not legal for this debate.

Originally posted by Genesis
You seem biased. Instead of gathered explanations, you just go on about how good the infected are compared the Majini. What makes them better? The Majini are fast. They're sneaky (We seem them hiding in boxes and doors) and they have the power that the infected do as well. They can smash through concrete (As seen in the Public Assembly level) they can push down barriers you put up (Like huge shelves.) and they can bust up doors. They're like the infected EXCEPT for one detail; The Majini are far superior when it comes to intelligence.

Yes, but most Majini are capable of this. The Hunter is a special infected.

They can speak. They can use weapons. They're organized. They use tactics. They can drive vehicles. For crying out loud, they're much more intelligence than the infected. That's damn important.

Staggering doesn't prove pain. Wow. The Majini can get up from shotgun blasts, without showing pain. Staggering back from the blast of a gun doesn't prove pain. Sorry. You'll have to do better. A pistol shot can take down an infected in one shot sometimes. A single pistol shot will never take down a Majini unless it is in the head. Sometimes, that doesn't even work or the Majini just transforms.

Why is it not allowed? Because the infected might lose? You're showing more bias here. It's upsetting.

You're not making it between two generic entities. You're basically saying that the generic Majini (And you've limited their transformation abilities) get to fight the infected and their boss infected. Why shouldn't the Majini get their bosses? I know why. The infected would lose. Quickly.

Clearly I've underestimated the Majini, and I'm completely willing to concede to it. I have miniscule experience with RE5, and no experience with RE4 with which to parallel to.

I am biased, yes. I've played Left 4 Dead more times, and I like the concept of the Special Infected, particularly the Witch. We all have our preferences. The point of the debate, however, is to not let our bias overshadow our logical reasoning.

Yes, I've limited the Majini, because I already know that they have feats from previous titles, as well as a whatever will come from their current title, while the Infected are pretty much what they are.

If I had realized just how much more they progressed, I would have limited them further, or given more leeway to the Infected. As it is, I didn't, and I limited the Special Infected as well, for what I thought would be a well balanced fight.

I could try and accuse some of your statements as bias theories, but I'm not. Instead I will take you at your word, and continue to debate for the Infected, as I feel they still have a possibility of victory.

Originally posted by Genesis
I understand. Thank you for that.

I read the post you quoted, and in nowhere did I see him mention that the Tank was bulletproof.

I was making a point. I never stated he claimed it was bulletproof.

The Tank is described as bullet resistant, which is why it takes so many hits to go down, but not bulletproof. Bullets also have a greater degree of PSI than an axe, either thrown or swung. That is why I am unsure that axes would be very effective against Tanks.

No, you're misinterpreting. The Tank has a larger RESISTANCE to bullets. Either way, the bullet do penetrate the Tank (As seen by the blood spurting in-game) and do kill him. Of course a bullet has a larger PSI. This does not prove he is immune to axes, crossbows or various other weaponry. I don't think it would be all that effective either but if you have a large group of Majini with varying weapons working to take a Tank to the ground, you don't think the Tank would be finished? Then there is Ndesu. That thing would utterly destroy the tank. It took two separate mounted miniguns to take it down. You can take down a tank with shotgun fire.

How powerful are Cephalo maturations? I can understand a tentacle swiping and knocking down infected, but I don't see how it could do serious damage.

Well, the tentacle is also bladed in several areas and it knocked Chris and Sheva on their asses (Chris is over two hundred pounds) It has power and it also has blades in the tentacle to boot.

The bolded words are what I mean when I speak of Matured Las Plagas. Had you checked the link I had put in the OP? It leads to a wiki article, where it separates the Majini from Matured Las Plagas. That is why I have been referring to them as such. As for Ndesu, any reference to El Gigante is moot, because this is solely Resident Evil 5 we're focusing on. Can you show me some evidence that Ndesu is a Majini that had their Plagas parasite mutate them so? If Ndesu was formed through more than just natural mutation (i.e. if there was any experimentation done to enhance the transformation) then it is not legal for this debate.

You're looking for a workaround. Too bad you can't. The fight with the Ndesu itself is evidence enough. He has Type 2 Plagas tentacles tearing out of his body. Actually, it has SEVERAL Type 2 Plagas infections within it's structure.

You're getting it wrong here. They don't have "Las Plagas" within them. They have the Type 2 Plagas. It's different. It is already MATURED before it is forced into it's host.

Clearly I've underestimated the Majini, and I'm completely willing to concede to it. I have miniscule experience with RE5, and no experience with RE4 with which to parallel to.

That's understandable. I know I come off as biased towards RE5 but I own and have played both games numerous times and I can personally tell you (And even show you) why the Majini are superior. I could understand even if the infected had greater numbers than the Majini but they're balanced and the Majini just outclass the Infected. The boss infected would do damage, of course. It's a matter of numbers though. The infected just aren't enough and the general infected would be destroyed so quickly and easily.

I am biased, yes. I've played Left 4 Dead more times, and I like the concept of the Special Infected, particularly the Witch. We all have our preferences. The point of the debate, however, is to not let our bias overshadow our logical reasoning.

Right.

Yes, I've limited the Majini, because I already know that they have feats from previous titles, as well as a whatever will come from their current title, while the Infected are pretty much what they are.

Okay.

If I had realized just how much more they progressed, I would have limited them further, or given more leeway to the Infected. As it is, I didn't, and I limited the Special Infected as well, for what I thought would be a well balanced fight.

Okay.

I could try and accuse some of your statements as bias theories, but I'm not. Instead I will take you at your word, and continue to debate for the Infected, as I feel they still have a possibility of victory.

That's fine. You're entitled to that. I just don't think they would win, especially with the parameters of the fight as they are in your specific scenario. I think the infected would be torn apart.

You're welcome.

Ah, a gentleman. What a rarity among these forums.

Originally posted by Genesis
Pardon? They were never near a military installation. Where are you getting your information from? There's a town, a village, mines, caves, an oil refinery, marshlands, a research facility, a boat, an airplane and a volcano.

And a town, a village, mines, caves, oil refineries, marshlands, research facilities, boats, airplanes and volcanoes are known to have military grade weapons just lying around for the Majini to pick up?

Regardless of that, I've made it clear there are no military installations in this scenario, so there would be no way for the Majini to get access to such high level firepower.

Originally posted by Genesis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFXjmoddjIU

First one you encounter runs at you. Throughout the rest of the game, they'll run, climb and jump until they're at you.

Very well, thank you for providing the evidence. I will concede this point.

Originally posted by Genesis
Well, the infected get everyone they've got in this scenario and the Majini don't. Is it not tilted? How can you say that you're not tilting it?

If the Majini had the crocodiles, the soldier Majini, the tribal Majini, Uroboros (Which is in the metropolis), Cephalos, U-8's, etc .... The infected would be damned. I understand you're trying to make a balanced battle but the Majini are deadly, even with the lower tier ones. The infected don't evolve as quickly as they do nor to the capability that they do in terms of viral infection speed. The Majini can use their tentacles at will (As seen in-game when they grab you) and even transform into something much deadlier (Sometimes) when killed.

Yes, in my previous post I made it clear that I had underestimated the Majini greatly. It was my own ignorance that made me believe otherwise. That said, I still believe the Infected are possible of defeating the Majini.

Originally posted by Genesis
They throw dynamite, though. They obviously pick up what they see. Even so, a few Majini with guns is a significant threat. They'd take out a considerate amount of infected just with those firearms. Then, if they run out of bullets, why not just take on them with another weapon or with their physical body?

Do we have strength feats we can compare for the two forces? I know enough Infected can tear down walls, but again, I know very little about Majini. I don't know how well going hand to hand would work.

Originally posted by Genesis
No, I'm not. If his example of physics is wrong, does he succeed?

No, he does not. Regardless, your manner of response could have been much more civil. You could have simply said that you believed him to be wrong.

Originally posted by Genesis
Why couldn't a thrown axe hurt the tank? There's no evidence to suggest his skin is made of steel. His tissue and muscle can still be penetrated.

I've stated before that my opinion is that bullets have the piercing power to break the Tank's skin. A thrown axe, unless thrown by one of the Axe Majini, I don't believe would have the necessary power behind it.

Originally posted by Genesis
You can't tell me the intention of what I said. You can't. He needs to get real or he should not argue against me. His debating pattern is shoddy.

You're right, I don't know the intention of what you say, I can only go off my perception. However, my perception is that it was rude, uncalled for, and not constructive in any way. If his debating pattern is shoddy, you might mention that instead, in a civil manner, than simply telling him to "get real".

Originally posted by Genesis
I am. I'm stating a fact. He shouldn't. His bias is incredible.

He has responded to this, so I will only say that if you think someone needs to be made aware of their faults, you do so in a civil manner, please.

Originally posted by Genesis
Who said it did?

Again, my assumptions. I apologize if it seemed overly rude.

Originally posted by Genesis
I was making a point. I never stated he claimed it was bulletproof.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Genesis
No, you're misinterpreting. The Tank has a larger RESISTANCE to bullets. Either way, the bullet do penetrate the Tank (As seen by the blood spurting in-game) and do kill him. Of course a bullet has a larger PSI. This does not prove he is immune to axes, crossbows or various other weaponry.

The reason I saw axes wouldn't be able to affect him is because of the power behind the swing or throw. That's pretty much the basis of my thinking. In any case, even if the Majini did swarm the Tank to try and chip him down, he wouldn't just (excuse the pun) be tanking it. He'd be knocking them on their asses.

Originally posted by Genesis
I don't think it would be all that effective either but if you have a large group of Majini with varying weapons working to take a Tank to the ground, you don't think the Tank would be finished? Then there is Ndesu. That thing would utterly destroy the tank. It took two separate mounted miniguns to take it down. You can take down a tank with shotgun fire.

...I forgot what I was gonna say to this. Oh well.

Originally posted by Genesis
Well, the tentacle is also bladed in several areas and it knocked Chris and Sheva on their asses (Chris is over two hundred pounds) It has power and it also has blades in the tentacle to boot.

I wasn't aware the tentacle had blades. That makes things a big more difficult. Can it swing itself over a wide arc to tag multiple opponents? Or does it act like more of a whip?

Originally posted by Genesis
You're looking for a workaround. Too bad you can't. The fight with the Ndesu itself is evidence enough. He has Type 2 Plagas tentacles tearing out of his body. Actually, it has SEVERAL Type 2 Plagas infections within it's structure.

You might be right, but having the tentacles out only confirms it as a symbiote, not as a Majini mutation. Besides, if I want to nitpick to make things easier for the Infected, can you blame me? 😛

In all honesty, though, if you can show me that the Ndesu is a Majini that went Uber on its own, and didn't have any outside help from the research labs, then I'll allow it.

Originally posted by Genesis
You're getting it wrong here. They don't have "Las Plagas" within them. They have the Type 2 Plagas. It's different. It is already MATURED before it is forced into it's host.

Is it really that great of a leap? Still, if using the term "Las Plagas" is confusing you, then I'll start referring to it as Type 2 Plagas, though I don't really see a difference.

Originally posted by Genesis
That's understandable. I know I come off as biased towards RE5 but I own and have played both games numerous times and I can personally tell you (And even show you) why the Majini are superior. I could understand even if the infected had greater numbers than the Majini but they're balanced and the Majini just outclass the Infected. The boss infected would do damage, of course. It's a matter of numbers though. The infected just aren't enough and the general infected would be destroyed so quickly and easily.

You've shown me a great deal of evidence, and I commend you for it, but calling the victory for the Majini is still just opinion until you can win me over. 😉

Originally posted by Genesis
That's fine. You're entitled to that. I just don't think they would win, especially with the parameters of the fight as they are in your specific scenario. I think the infected would be torn apart.

See above. Don't think that I'm some idiot fanboy who won't know when to admit defeat, though. I'm sure you can prove to me that the Majini deserve this victory.

Originally posted by Genesis
Ah, a gentleman. What a rarity among these forums.

😄 Why, thank you! I simply try to treat others with respect unless they've proven they don't deserve it. You don't have to worry about that so far.

Told ya Xan isn't me. 😆

Originally posted by Genesis
[B]Most of them do. I've played and beaten both games several times. Restricted and limited? It is clear Majini will use anything to their advantage. Even bottles. It's a sign of intelligence. I love the L4D Zombies and I'm a fan of the game but they're dumber and less organized. Hell, most of them fall victim to four intelligence, organized humans. It's obvious they stand no chance against opponents with shreds of intelligence.

Semi-Point. If there were few Majini, it might not be a problem, but with both sides more or less equal, yeah.

Originally posted by Genesis
He'd be pouncing and he'd leap on one. Then what? Another Majini could take an axe or a shovel to him and have him on the ground.

Semi-point. Hunters are notorious for waiting until a Horde has their prey distracted before they pounce. Assuming this is the case, the Majini would have to cut through the Horde before they can reach the Hunter, and by then it may be too late.

Originally posted by Genesis
The tanks are fast? It's irrelevant. One word: Ndesu.

Heeeyyy, I see what you're doing there. You know what you have to do get me to allow that rebuttal. ;P

Originally posted by Genesis
The Majini have both power and intelligence. If we're playing with game mechanics here, the Majini are much stronger than the infected. They injure harder and are more difficult to kill.

I would call this point, but again, try to think beyond game mechanics. It just limits the debate as a whole.

Originally posted by Genesis
That doesn't make sense and you have no evidence of it either. They clearly have the intelligence to work together and aid each other. You've played the game, right?

I don't think he has, Genesis. As for the aid remark, have you seen them aid each other in terms of just joining forces to attack Chris and Sheva? Or have they shown evidence of aiding a fallen comrade? This is skirting my own game mechanics rule, but even from what I've seen in the few cutscenes I've watched, which generally don't fall under the game mechanic stigma, they don't seem to aid their injured. Again, I'm bereft of real knowledge, so if you can show me, then I'll give the point.

Originally posted by Genesis
Smokers can snipe? They capture one and they give away their position. BAM! A crossbow Majini shoots the smoker and it's game over. Hell, they were able to easily spot Chris and Sheva in the back of a house through the window. What's a smoker who clearly makes his position visible by extracting his tongue across the battlefield?

How far away did they spot the PCs? Smoker's can shoot their tongue a very long distance, would the crossbows even be able to reach them? They're also known for staying as hidden as possible to minimize the chances of being shot down. Would the Majini be intelligent enough to realize that they can attack the tongue to get free?

Originally posted by Genesis
Really? They can? Where's your evidence? I've seen them sit around, puke and fight each other. They're uncontrollable and stupid. They certainly don't know how to communicate. Boomers have low stamina, by the way. They'd drop quickly.

As a whole the Horde are rather stupid, yes. It's really the Boomer who acts more of a commanding type, I'm assuming not entirely unlike an Agitator, the only difference is the Boomer uses his bile to direct his troops, and Boomers are known for being able to jump in, barf, and jump out.

Originally posted by Genesis
Actually, the general infected drop instantly when on fire, so the few special infected that do move faster when on fire are dying by fire. The Majini could take them out easily. Plus, they're illuminated targets.

Point.

Originally posted by Genesis
Or they could come in on dirtbikes and trucks. They'd mow down so many.

Very good point, as I didn't limit their ability to drive vehicles. Though I'm sure the Infected would find some way around that, or else they wouldn't have taken over a metropolis to begin with.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Told ya Xan isn't me. 😆

That's right, Tyler...I mean, Scream. 😄

I'm off to bed. I probably won't be back on the boards until tomorrow. Hopefully someone else will be able to take over for me. Until next time, folks. *A horde of Witches pick him up and carry him away* ;D

The way I see it, the Infected would be leading with major victories until they lost their Tanks. Then, it would all start to go down hill for them.

Bump...Oh hai! 😄

>.>

<.<

LOOK! A DISTRACTION! *runs in the opposite direction*

Originally posted by Shaggs
The way I see it, the Infected would be leading with major victories until they lost their Tanks. Then, it would all start to go down hill for them.

Majins will be dead before the tanks die.

Moar debate, please. : ) I need a new opponent to spar with...I still say The Infected have a shot, but Genesis has certainly shaken my resolve. Who can land the knockout blow? 😱

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Majins will be dead before the tanks die.