y is this going on.
1. NUTHING aizen or bleachverse for that matter can do can even come close to DAMAGING trunks
2. trunks is MUCH faster, MUCH stronger, MUCH more durable, and has MUCH greater power than bleachverse combined
3. even if he is under hypnosis, he can pretty much destroy the planet without a second thought.
so how does aizen win?
Originally posted by leonheartmm
y is this going on.1. NUTHING aizen or bleachverse for that matter can do can even come close to DAMAGING trunks
2. trunks is MUCH faster, MUCH stronger, MUCH more durable, and has MUCH greater power than bleachverse combined
3. even if he is under hypnosis, he can pretty much destroy the planet without a second thought.
so how does aizen win?
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^ofcourse hell know, since he wont be able to catch aizen and aizen will keep MISSING his energy blasts and hell keep getting hit to no avail by an invisible sword. then hell blow up the continent.
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
So wait, he'll know Aizens an illusion b/c he dodges his attacks? And why would Aizen use such a simple illusion. he has full control over trunks' senses. He could make it appear as if he had killed Aizen, then come up take trunks sword from him, and stab him in the eye. Trunks wouldn't know his sword was gone, b/c he couldn't see, hear, or feel it. So explain how he overcomes a total lack of being unable to know what his opponent is doing.
Aizen can't cut Trunks at all.
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
So wait, he'll know Aizens an illusion b/c he dodges his attacks? And why would Aizen use such a simple illusion. he has full control over trunks' senses. He could make it appear as if he had killed Aizen, then come up take trunks sword from him, and stab him in the eye. Trunks wouldn't know his sword was gone, b/c he couldn't see, hear, or feel it. So explain how he overcomes a total lack of being unable to know what his opponent is doing.
trunks has highly developed ki sensing.
there is no reason to beleive that kyoka suigetsu wud work on sum of trunks level, i was only humouring you.
trunks wud likely blow aizen away before he even takes out his zanpakuto.
trunk's sword is nuthing without his key, as it has been broken in the past.
to humour you even more, when trunks feels his eye burst, he will destroy the continent, suigetsu has never been shown to by pass pain with illusions
Aizen could make Trunks think he's asleep. He could also make him think that he's using his powers, while at the same time he's just standing there drooling. And why the hell wouldn't it work on Trunk? Is he gonna pull a resistance to it outta his ass. There's nothing to suggest Trunks could resist it in the slightest.
suigetsu has never been shown to by pass pain with illusions
Touch (feeling) is one of the senses Aizen can manipulate. Trunks wouldn't feel it even if he flew full-tilt into the sun. Which is surprisingly likely to happen.
trunks wud likely blow aizen away before he even takes out his zanpakuto.
It's doubtful that Trunks is that much faster than Aizen. If at all. Aizen is frickin fast too. And Trunks isn't exactly the fastest Dragon Baller to exist.
Aizen can't cut Trunks at all.
But he could have Trunks practically sodomise himself for him.
Originally posted by niduin
what does gathering ki have to do with the senses? if you are talking about sensing ki/spirit energy that work either because the shinigami can sence spirit energy too and they were fooled by the illusion.
Which is true. The only way Aizen could fool his Captain is by making sure the captain kept his distance. Just cause you're fooled by an Illusion, doesn't mean you can't use your ESP to find Aizen. Didn't big-tooth captain find Aizen in a shroud as he walked past? It surprised Aizen.
DB characters can sense Ki to a much higher degree than Bleach characters. They sensed the Saiyans approaching Earth from distant space.
Originally posted by niduin
ok that is true he isnt like goku in those regards, but stil in every fight he has been in he talked to the person for at least a few minuts before fighting, its just how everyone in the dbz verse and bleachverse are, but in the bleach verse the smarter ones are usually up to something while they are talking or something is already happening, and like i said simply pulling out his sword and holding it out would not apear to be any kind of threat so why would trunks stop im from doing it?
Cool. I agree with this. This is how you properly debate, LDHZenkai. His argument is sound. We can go with this. But, it doesn't change that Aizen can't even scratch Trunks. Even a level 99 Hadô spell wouldn't even approach any sort of damage on Trunks.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Aizen could make Trunks think he's asleep. He could also make him think that he's using his powers, while at the same time he's just standing there drooling. And why the hell wouldn't it work on Trunk? Is he gonna pull a resistance to it outta his ass. There's nothing to suggest Trunks could resist it in the slightest.
But, you see, sensing, manipulating, or anything related to Ki is not part of the 5 sensese.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Touch (feeling) is one of the senses Aizen can manipulate. Trunks wouldn't feel it even if he flew full-tilt into the sun. Which is surprisingly likely to happen.
I agree with this statement.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It's doubtful that Trunks is [b]that much faster than Aizen. If at all. Aizen is frickin fast too. And Trunks isn't exactly the fastest Dragon Baller to exist.[/B]
Dude, they don't even compare. Even remotely. There were characters with powerlevels around 1000 moving faster than a human eye can discern.
Originally posted by Nephthys
But he could have Trunks practically sodomise himself for him.
Only if you're not familiar with the power of DBZ characters.
All Trunks has to do is raise his powerlevel, just slightly, and it eclipses Aizen's, many times over.
Originally posted by dadudemon
But, you see, sensing, manipulating, or anything related to Ki is not part of the 5 sensese.I agree with this statement.
Dude, they don't even compare. Even remotely. There were characters with powerlevels around 1000 moving faster than a human eye can discern.
Only if you're not familiar with the power of DBZ characters.
All Trunks has to do is raise his powerlevel, just slightly, and it eclipses Aizen's, many times over.
Every captain moves faster than the human eye can discern. Aizens power levels are higher why? His ki sensing is better how? They sensed saiyans coming from space? That's cool. Shinigami can sense it on earth while they're in heaven or w/e you wanna call it. That's a dimensional barrier that their sense works through, so if anything there's is stronger. And you agree aizen could get trunks to fly into the sun without realizing it, yet you continue to argue that trunks would win? By your own admission that's all Aizen would have to do. He could make it appear as if he were flying towards Aizen, when in reality he was just using his super speed to incinerate himself. He wouldn't be able to sense Aizen, he wouldn't be able to hear, smell, feel, or see Aizen. Yet you think he's still going to kill him? Just b/c he's dbz and his power level is more than 1,000!!!! :😖igh::
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Every captain moves faster than the human eye can discern. Aizens power levels are higher why? His ki sensing is better how? They sensed saiyans coming from space? That's cool. Shinigami can sense it on earth while they're in heaven or w/e you wanna call it. That's a dimensional barrier that their sense works through, so if anything there's is stronger. And you agree aizen could get trunks to fly into the sun without realizing it, yet you continue to argue that trunks would win? By your own admission that's all Aizen would have to do. He could make it appear as if he were flying towards Aizen, when in reality he was just using his super speed to incinerate himself. He wouldn't be able to sense Aizen, he wouldn't be able to hear, smell, feel, or see Aizen. Yet you think he's still going to kill him? Just b/c he's dbz and his power level is more than 1,000!!!! :😖igh::
Seriously, you're much too ignorant to have any idea what I was referring to. Your entire post can be thrown out as rubbish.
I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself.
Do you know why I referred to power level of 1000 and moving faster than someone could discern? Do you even have a clue?
Originally posted by dadudemon
Seriously, you're much too ignorant to have any idea what I was referring to. Your entire post can be thrown out as rubbish.I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself.
Do you know why I referred to power level of 1000 and moving faster than someone could discern? Do you even have a clue?
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
lol so you're response to what i said is to insult me yet again? You're ****ing pathetic. It's really sad. Respond to what I posted. Overcome my objections. just insulting me b/c you have no way to overcome my argument is retarded.
No, answer my question. I've already overcome what you said, many times over. You're just rehashing.
Answer my question.
But, you see, sensing, manipulating, or anything related to Ki is not part of the 5 sensese.
I thought this too until I was asked the question of how Aizen hid his true power from the Gotei 13. The only logical way for him to do such, would be for him to be able to manipulate spirit energy senses. This most likely therefore falls under the sense of feeling.
Dude, they don't even compare. Even remotely. There were characters with powerlevels around 1000 moving faster than a human eye can discern.
So all those times when characters have just disappeared before peoples eyes and reappeared somewhere else in Bleach isn't the same thing then? Or when someone moves a mile in a single step? Or when Ichigo appears to be in 15 or so different places at once (before Aizen blitzes him)? Dude, Bleach characters are freakin fast, you shouldn't underestimate them. The guy from a few pages back is right though, all characters from both mangas do is disappear and reappear, so we can't really compare them accurately. And I know that 1000 isn't a particularly high number by DB standards but you must be able to see how there speed is at least comparable, or that Aizen isn't likely to get blitzed right from the Bat.
Not to mention that Aizen is much stronger than the ones who performed all the speed showings and has the best footwork in the series.
Only if you're not familiar with the power of DBZ characters.All Trunks has to do is raise his powerlevel, just slightly, and it eclipses Aizen's, many times over.
This fight isn't power, its about Aizen making Trunks think that his own arm is his opponent and loling while he hacks it off himself. And my point was in response to your point of Aizen not being able to harm Trunks, so I pointed out that Aizen could have him hurt himself.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought this too until I was asked the question of how Aizen hid his true power from the Gotei 13. The only logical way for him to do such, would be for him to be able to manipulate spirit energy senses. This most likely therefore falls under the sense of feeling.
But, he didn't. He hid.
Also, Bleach Character don't sense Ki as well as DB characters....Aizen just had to go a city away...at most.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So all those times when characters have just disappeared before peoples eyes and reappeared somewhere else in Bleach isn't the same thing then?
It is similar but not even close to the same scale. We get to see it slowed down in the Anime and it puts it into Perspective. Kenshin is just as fast. The difference in ability is how far each step of Shunpu or Sonido can be done. And there is varying speeds. Kuchiki would be one of the fastest. Stark would be fast as well...if not faster. Unsure if Aizen is faster as he hasn't shown Shunpu.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Or when someone moves a mile in a single step? Or when Ichigo appears to be in 15 or so different places at once (before Aizen blitzes him)?
Ichigo, in Bankai form, should be the fastest character in the entire series by far. He blocekd over 100,000,000 blades from Kuchiki when Kuchiki did his "sand coffin" attack. However, Ichigo is consistantly gimped each arc. Just like DBZ characters were gimped each arc.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Dude, Bleach characters are freakin fast, you shouldn't underestimate them.
I most certainly believe that. But nothing they do shows that they are even close to being on scale with some of the stronger DB characters.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The guy from a few pages back is right though, all characters from both mangas do is disappear and reappear, so we can't really compare them accurately. And I know that 1000 isn't a particularly high number by DB standards but you must be able to see how there speed is at least comparable, or that Aizen isn't likely to get blitzed right from the Bat.
Well, this is anime manga forum, so we can use the Animes. The thread started also did not stipulate that we could not use the Animes. Knowing that, we can use each to make a relative comparison. We got to see Kuchiki, in slow mo, use Shunpu. It is fast...similar to what I think Kenshin's speed is. Math was done on that speed for Kenshin and, in order to pull off the effect that he was, he had to go 230MPh. I would put the flash step into a similar position...slower for some, faster for others. In the Anime, we get to see Yoruichi flash stepping with Ichigo. It appears even slower than 230MPh. She is also carrying Ichigo.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not to mention that Aizen is much stronger than the ones who performed all the speed showings and has the best footwork in the series.
You have no basis for that. The best we have for Aizen:
1. His Reiryoku is about twice that of an average captain.Aizen said that it takes someone with twice the Reiryoku as a captain to use the Hôgyoku crystal. Urahara used it. He would be in the same ballpark, if going by that figure.
2. Aizen, using his very high spirit pressure, naturally could not be cut by Ichigo, who was almost completely exhausted from his fight with Kuchiki. He stopped Ichigo's attack with his finger and cut a stunned Ichigo. I still don't buy into the "cut ichigo before he knew what was happening" bullshit. Ichigo just stayed there...stunned, and cut slashed.
3. His spirit power is seen against Grimmjow, bringing Grimmjow to his knees. This makes me think that it isn't a percentage of greater Reiatsu that makes the lesser sweat or faint, it is simply a certain amount that affects as it does. Grimmjow is certainly not lacking in Reiryoku. Is Urahara really on level with Aizen in Reiryoku? Even AROUND the same level is still HUGE by Bleach Standards.
4. He's super genius. Apparantly, Yamamoto knew about the plans, though, as he wasn't in the least stunned by Aizen's revelation at Rukia's execution.
Annnd, that's just about it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
This fight isn't power,
No. It clearly is completely about power. Since Aizen couldn't hope to even scratch Trunks (whose own sword isn't strong enough to cut him).
Originally posted by Nephthys
its about Aizen making Trunks think that his own arm is his opponent and loling while he hacks it off himself. And my point was in response to your point of Aizen not being able to harm Trunks, so I pointed out that Aizen could have him hurt himself.
That's true, until you give the reality that Aizen's illusion couldn't take place when he is passed out on the ground from Trunks' immense power. 😐 Also, I am quite certain that Aizen's illusion is breakable by someone strong. We should wait and see. What Aizen was saying could be more Villain hyperbole. You watch and see. Ichigo goes Vizard level II and breaks the illusion.
But, he didn't. He hid.Also, Bleach Character don't sense Ki as well as DB characters....Aizen just had to go a city away...at most.
But..... he didn't. He stood right in front of the Gotei 13, many of which are extremely paranoid (Soi Fon) for 100 years without a single one sensing his power.
I most certainly believe that. But nothing they do shows that they are even close to being on scale with some of the stronger DB characters.
Well maybe if you actually post some feats for them I could reach the same conclusion. Unfortunately, DBZ was before my time, so I know next to nothing on them except for some of the cooler fights I caught on Youtube and a little research.
Well, this is anime manga forum, so we can use the Animes. The thread started also did not stipulate that we could not use the Animes. Knowing that, we can use each to make a relative comparison. We got to see Kuchiki, in slow mo, use Shunpu. It is fast...similar to what I think Kenshin's speed is. Math was done on that speed for Kenshin and, in order to pull off the effect that he was, he had to go 230MPh. I would put the flash step into a similar position...slower for some, faster for others. In the Anime, we get to see Yoruichi flash stepping with Ichigo. It appears even slower than 230MPh. She is also carrying Ichigo.
So what does this mean for the fight?
Plus I would say that the fastest depiction of Shunpo we see is Ichigo or Yoruichi leaving afterimages/ attackin many times at once. Yoruichi actually blitzed 12 people at once. Or course then she fought almost evenly with Soi fon, who late got beat by an unreleased Baragan who is worse than Aizen sizably.
Urahara used it. He would be in the same ballpark, if going by that figure.
When did he use it? He never did too my knowledge.
No. It clearly is completely about power. Since Aizen couldn't hope to even scratch Trunks (whose own sword isn't strong enough to cut him).
Which is why Aizen wouldn't go down the frontal assualt route.
That's true, until you give the reality that Aizen's illusion couldn't take place when he is passed out on the ground from Trunks' immense power. no expression
Nah, power in DB have never had the same effects as that of Bleacher's. Theres nothing to suggest that it would suddenly do so now. This is probably due to the differences in the energy, Ki exhibiting itself as a lightbased type power, while Rietsu is a more physical, dense source, leading to the crushing effect.
Also, I am quite certain that Aizen's illusion is breakable by someone strong. We should wait and see. What Aizen was saying could be more Villain hyperbole. You watch and see. Ichigo goes Vizard level II and breaks the illusion.
Maybe, though if that were true wouldn't Urahara or Yammamoto, who are supposedly close to Aizen in power be able to do the same. Either way though, speculation isn't applicable in versus fights.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Aizen could make Trunks think he's asleep. He could also make him think that he's using his powers, while at the same time he's just standing there drooling. And why the hell wouldn't it work on Trunk? Is he gonna pull a resistance to it outta his ass. There's nothing to suggest Trunks could resist it in the slightest.Touch (feeling) is one of the senses Aizen can manipulate. Trunks wouldn't feel it even if he flew full-tilt into the sun. Which is surprisingly likely to happen.
It's doubtful that Trunks is [b]that
much faster than Aizen. If at all. Aizen is frickin fast too. And Trunks isn't exactly the fastest Dragon Baller to exist.But he could have Trunks practically sodomise himself for him. [/B]
you are confusing ILLUSIONS with total body control. going by your reasoning, aizen cud make trunks feal like he was having icecream on a beach even though he was DEAD! untrue and ridiculous. the illusions are OUTSIDE the body of the person in question, spatial awareness, internal equilibrium and sense of SELF as well as awareness of the state of ones OWN body are NOT part of kyoka suigetsu's power, if they WERE, aizen wud have been able to kill EVERY1 in soul society without FAIL and wudnt need to go to any trouble at all, infact he cud make yamamoto GIVE him the key to the thron of god. so in short, the illusions exist outside the body of the person in question and what you are saying has no evidence in the manga.
it wudnt work on trunks because trunks is a being with a vastly difference and vastly larger physique/powerset than bleachers. its like saying emma frost can project illusions on galactus.
trunks is faster than frieza, nough said.
you are confusing ILLUSIONS with total body control. going by your reasoning, aizen cud make trunks feal like he was having icecream on a beach even though he was DEAD!
Aizen can manipulate feelings inside of the body though, as he himself confirms. If you feel something as well as sense something then for you it is real. So yes to an extent he can control the body.With manipulations of the senses that would be a simple thing to do. For example we have dreams, in which a person is absolutely positive that they just moved their right arm to fend of Bill Clintons sexual advances, when in fact they are just lying in bed. Victims of hypnosis (directly linked to Aizens ability) also suffer from think, imagining themselves from sense information to be sitting at a bar with Little Nicky, when instead they are standing in front of a laughing audience, or else have the experience of being a dog. I can see however, your problem with this, which is that the hypnosis doesn't effect cognitive abilities, so while Trunks will feel like a dog, he won't think that he's a dog. However, he will still be cut off from his abilities, being unable to feel them in the slightest and thus won't be able to do anything even when Aizen is drowning him, gouging out his eyeballs, scooping out his brain Egyption style or packing him in a rocket and blasting him into the sun.
Also,Spatial awareness is created by the brain based upon information from the senses, for example perceiving a bottle to be right in front of you when in fact its 1 centre meter too the left.
spatial awareness, internal equilibrium and sense of SELF as well as awareness of the state of ones OWN body are NOT part of kyoka suigetsu's power,
Already dealt with, as it is.
it wudnt work on trunks because trunks is a being with a vastly difference and vastly larger physique/powerset than bleachers.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. While Aizen's ability has never been used on a being as 'highly evolved' as Trunks, it is mere speculation to say that this will stop him from being able to influence Trunks. There is nothing to indicate that Trunks as any sort of resistance too it.
its like saying emma frost can project illusions on galactus.
She would. If he had no defence against it. Luckily for Big G however he has advanced cognative abilities to contend with psychics. Trunks on the other hand has no evolutionary defence to the power of a zanpakto. And theres nothing to suggest that he does.
if they WERE, aizen wud have been able to kill EVERY1 in soul society without FAIL and wudnt need to go to any trouble at all, infact he cud make yamamoto GIVE him the key to the thron of god.
awesrg Maybe Aizen can't manipulate too many people on that scale at once. Maybe the key is somewhere he can't find. Maybe it's just PIS. I'm just taking Aizens power too it's logical conclusion however.
trunks is faster than frieza, nough said.
.....
And how fast is Frieza?
Originally posted by Nephthys
But..... he didn't. He stood right in front of the Gotei 13, many of which are extremely paranoid (Soi Fon) for 100 years without a single one sensing his power.
WTF? He was an effin' captain. Tell me again how being a captain shows how Aizen hid his strength?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well maybe if you actually post some feats for them I could reach the same conclusion. Unfortunately, DBZ was before my time, so I know next to nothing on them except for some of the cooler fights I caught on Youtube and a little research.
Goku's power level is over 9000. 😐
Go read a wiki. Feats have already been posted.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So what does this mean for the fight?
Here is a scene when Piccolo fought Frieza, second form. The blows put things in to context at how powerful even someone who's not on scale with a Supersaiyan, is.
Just the blows being exchanged cause massive shockwaves in the entire environment around them, and they are not even close to being on scale with Supersaiyan trunks.
Also, to put the speed in context, look at the scene at 1:13. Piccolo punches Frieza a mile or two away and almost instantly covers that distance.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus I would say that the fastest depiction of Shunpo we see is Ichigo or Yoruichi leaving afterimages/ attackin many times at once. Yoruichi actually blitzed 12 people at once. Or course then she fought almost evenly with Soi fon, who late got beat by an unreleased Baragan who is worse than Aizen sizably.
1. Trunks defeated a bunch of soldiers, each much stronger than a regular human. It was just a mere flash, and all of them collapsed.
2. Trunks power was said to be much larger than the new and improved Frieza's, and that's before he did any sort of training in the Hyperbolic time chamber to become much much stronger.
3. Trunks was much faster than the new and improved Frieza, the same Frieza that could cover miles in less than a second (See his fight, well before he powered up to his ultimate form, with Piccolo.) Even before powering up to his ultimate form, Frieza was much faster than Piccolo, and we saw piccolo move a mile or two very quickly. That should put in to perspective how fast the DB fighters are...considering their powers increase many times over before we get to the cell saga.
Originally posted by Nephthys
When did he use it? He never did too my knowledge.
He used on the original Vizard to save them from turning into hallows.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is why Aizen wouldn't go down the frontal assualt route.
I'll give you, based on your logic, that they will talk first. Trunks will even give Aizen the chance to use his Bankai, imo.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah, power in DB have never had the same effects as that of Bleacher's. Theres nothing to suggest that it would suddenly do so now. This is probably due to the differences in the energy, Ki exhibiting itself as a lightbased type power, while Rietsu is a more physical, dense source, leading to the crushing effect.
Oh, really?
I'd say that their energy is as physical as it gets, here:
At around 4:05
Just them flexing their Ki changes the entire environment around themselves. Everything in site is blow around and spun in each of their respective Kis.
Also, if you'll notice, Goku stopped a volcanic eruption with just his mind, without moving an inch. 😐 Who's to say Trunks wouldn't just control Aizen with his mind? AHA! lol Aizen isn't even close to being strong enough to resist being physically manipulated IF Trunks wanted to do so. However, Trunks never shows that he does that in fights. It isn't a "special" power of Goku, either, in case you wanted to go that direction. The stronger the character, the more they can do with their mind.
Now, this is to put it all in context for you. Goku is not as strong as Trunks was when they first met. We know from their dialogue that this wasn't a full supersaiyan form. It was incomplete. Trunks, who is much much stronger after his Hyperbolic Time Chamber training, is many many times stronger than this version of Goku.
Do you understand, now, why people consider this fight absurd?
And, no, the DB character's Ki is every bit as physical as anything else done in Bleach. In Bleach, it is just...in.....much much smaller amounts. For some reason, however, Bleach people are susceptible to someone with much higher energy levels. It causes them to be weak, sweat, and in cases that it is much much higher, it causes them to pass out. Now, DB characters also sweat and shake. When Frieza and Trunks were fighting, all the Z-fighters were shitting bricks and sweating. They were very much frightened. Now, I'll give you that the energy of Bleach characters makes other characters sweat and become weak...which DB characters seem immune to the passing out. Since it is the same thing, Aizen still goes down.
Hell, Trunks would only have to flex his Ki, like Frieza and Goku did, and it destroys Aizen.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe, though if that were true wouldn't Urahara or Yammamoto, who are supposedly close to Aizen in power be able to do the same. Either way though, speculation isn't applicable in versus fights.
Funny you should mention that. Many speculate that Yamamoto knew all along what Aizen was doing. He was not surprised at all at Aizen's appearance when he was supposed to be dead, and he wasn't at all surprised at Aizen's betrayal, hinting that his Illusion technique only works on those weaker than him.
This is mere speculation, of course. And we still haven't seen Aizen actually use his Illusion technique, so we don't know how much of it is true, we just know that he did hypnotize some people.