The clone wars republic vs old republic, sith empire and Infinite Empire

Well, they'd been setting up since TPM.

The Clones, you mean. There was no standing army as of AotC. In fact, the whole gambit behind the Clone Army was that the Republic would move to use them, having no real ground troops of their own.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@Janus Marius:

Wookipedia (which is actually pretty reliable) says that the infinite empire only spanned about 500 worlds DUE TO THEIR LIMITED HYPERSPACE TECH. Also, it says that the GAR was one of the largest armies ever assembled.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Nai, I seemed to be under the impression that the Sith managed to surprise the Ratakan oppressors who came to their planet and killed their leader or something. I'd have to look it up again.

Well. Partitially, Lightsnake is correct here. The Infinite Empire was already in decline, due to the Star Forge, which manipulated them and the plague which made them lose their force connection. However. At it's hight the Empire consisted of 10 billion Rakata and 1 trillion of slaves on the other worlds of the Empire. Coruscant in the CW era alone has 1 trillion citizens. So it's rather save to assume that the CW Republic simply dwarves all opponents participating in this very setup. And yes: They also outclass them on a sheer technical and military level.

I've played both KotOR games many times; I don't remember this last aspect at all. Given the idea of Star Maps, I was always under the impression that no one had properly mapped the galaxy back then, so it wasn't like they were constantly hyperspace jumping into Direction X hoping to find something nice. You'll notice in GAotS comics, mapping is still going on, for example. The Clone Wars-era Republic is a culmination of thousands of years of mapping, so obviously they will have more member worlds regardless of the differences in tech.

The point with the Rakatan technology was, that one needed to be a force user to use it. They didn't have Nav-Computers to navigate through space, they used established routes. Even in times of the TOTJ comics (see the story of Nomi Sunrider), hyperdrive homing beacons were rather common (meaning that Nav-Computers were not the standard then).

This would give the CW Republic additional advantages here, as they could cross distances faster and also more savely than their opponents.

So unless you can both substantiate the real limitations of the earlier empires using a source material (Which is ALWAYS reliable), I don't see this being a point worth arguing. And besides, the other empires backing them have plenty of updated maps and hyperdrive systems.

Well. See above. We're actually talking about a time that is roughly 50 years after the TOTJ comics. And while technology might have advanced, one should also think about what they have accomplished so far. They started to explore their Galaxy roughly 1000 years before that. Yet if you have a look at a map of the Galaxy (and even have a look at the map in KotoR itself), you would notice that most of the action is happening:

a) at the core regions
b) along well established hyperspace routes

So I'm not to confident that any of the Old Republic / Sith Empire / Infinite Empire maps are anywhere close to the details the Navigation Computers would offer to the CW Republic.

But where is this coming from? Clearly, there's no clear answer to the number of GAR troops, only the numbers given in AotC which mention millions of Clone Troopers.

Also, most of the surrounding EU describes land battles as being difficult for the Clone Troopers and their support, whereas most of the major battles are won in space (See RotS). So I'm not really seeing the aspect of the GAR being the biggest army ever created in SW history. More militant eras have existed before that had more prep time; the last great "battle" was a thousand years before the events of the PT; how can we expect full mobilization of even a fraction of a peaceful interstellar organization in little less than three years?

First off: The fact that the GAR has been labelled the "greatest fighting force" that ever existed in times of the Republic, pretty much means that they outnumber the Old Republic and the Sith Empire together. Add 10,000 Jedi Knights on that and a rather large fleet and think about the above mentioned advantages the CW Republic has. I really don't think that they will lose that fight...

And what do you mean with "more militant eras" exactly?

@Nai, to be honest greatest =/= largest

And yes, GAR wins. In PoD, a sith lord (too lazy to find name, since I read it a while ago, but it was Quordis or something) encountered a squad of the republics MOST ELITE soldiers that they could muster. After the fight, Quordis said that they were really good, so good that one even got in 2 shots before he killed them all. When Yoda fights battle droids (who aren't nearly as skilled as the upper elite soldiers), they manage to get in way more than 1 shot at him. This means:

a) Quordis >>>> Yoda (unlikely, he got beaten easily by Bane)
b) Old republic era soldiers weren't that well trained (unlikely, and that would work in GAR's favor so it would help them anyway)
c) The blasters weren't as advanced/high rate of fire (likely, given the 2000 year time gap)J
d) other

The Sith you're thinking of is Kopecz, who was badass.

Your logic there still fails, though.

Lightsnake was supposed to fill you in on this, but since he's been lax in his duties. Take from this what you will:

1.) The official (though implausible and unbelievably stupid) figure for the Grand Army of the Republic is "three million at the height of the conflict" with "another five hundred thousand" from the Special Combat brigade, according to the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. It also mentions that over half of the GAR was killed by the time of Palpatine's abduction, but they "had destroyed billions of battle droids."

2.) The depleted GAR/Imperial Army a month after RotS (RoDV) is referred to by Jedi Knight Roan Shryne as "one of the largest armies ever created."

3.) The Infinite Empire stretched from (can't remember the name of planet) to (other planet whose name eludes me), "but consisted of very few planets in total" according to the New Essential Chronology.

4.) The Complete Visual Dictionary says that the number of the Jedi "dwindled" to 10,000 circa TPM. Since Lucas refers to this as the prime of the Jedi and at the door of the Separatist Crisis and then the Palpatine epoch, one can only assume that it doesn't refer to numbers or "peace", but rather quality of combatants. And given that Yoda, Dooku, Mace, Qui Gon, Anoon Bondara, Cin Drallig, and Masters Tiin, Fisto, and Kolar functioned at this point (many lightsaber prodigies), it suggests that this is the case.

If I had my sources on hand, I'd give you the specific quotes. I'll try to get them all tomorrow.

Not here to argue, just to inform.

I just read PoD for the first time, and they refer to units in that as consisting of a large number of soldiers. Here's hoping for the retcon on Lama Su's choice of words.

Mace Windu in Shatterpoint makes it very clear that "units" refer to individual soldiers.

Sorry.

Hence my hope for a retcon. And my hope that Mace's referral is chalked to his own opinion, not Lama Su's.

I don't know how Mace, as an established General in the new Republic army, would be confused about the makeup of units. That would be a horrible blunder on someone's part. Now obviously certain military "units" can consist of more than one person, that's understandable. But Lama Su, last I checked, was referring to individual clones, not units of war. They had no organization on Kamino. So there's a possibility PoD was either off-base, or taking liberties with words in an attempt to bring to sense to one of GL's many silly mistakes.

PoD did make mention of Vaapad as a lightsaber form. Meh. I'm reaching for something that could present itself as an excuse for the 3 million unit f/uck up.

Well, SW fans accept that the Death Star contains enough power to blow up Alderaan despite that requiring more power than a handful of stars, and we accept Vader losing his potential power despite being maimed similarly to Luke Skywalker, and we accepted midi-chlorians, and the fight between Ian and Sammy, and we accepted that horrible revision in Return of the Jedi with the singing... thing well...

We'll learn to live with anything. Just try to avoid it, like we avoid all the above.

I didn't mind the singing. And I can easily wave aside the techno mumbo jumble behind the science and psycho-drama in Vader's head. But 3 million soldiers for a galactic war? Ka-mon. KA-MON!

You ask too much.

Originally posted by Eminence
The Sith you're thinking of is Kopecz, who was badass.

Your logic there still fails, though.

Elaborate.

Your logic sucks. As does your example of Kopecz fighting the soldiers. It was down a hallway and they were sentient humans fighting a Dark Lord. Now I know subtle changes in environment is a factor beyond your understanding, but do try:

Did you consider a different make of blaster? Did you consider a human psyche is different facing a Dark Lord than a droid brain is facing a Jedi Master? Did you consider that such a inane, small, and subjective example is hardly conducive of a concrete argument?

Did you stop to look at what you typed. Your "Qordis>>>>Yoda" makes no sense. Your "Old Republic soldiers weren't as well trained" is foundless. Your "other" only signifies that you lack proper evidence to defend your "argument."

You're bad at this game.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Your logic sucks. As does your example of Kopecz fighting the soldiers. It was down a hallway and they were sentient humans fighting a Dark Lord. Now I know subtle changes in environment is a factor beyond your understanding, but do try:

Did you consider a different make of blaster? Did you consider a human psyche is different facing a Dark Lord than a droid brain is facing a Jedi Master? Did you consider that such a inane, small, and subjective example is hardly conducive of a concrete argument?

Did you stop to look at what you typed. Your "Qordis>>>>Yoda" makes no sense. Your "Old Republic soldiers weren't as well trained" is foundless. Your "other" only signifies that you lack proper evidence to defend your "argument."

You're bad at this game.

My point is that Kopez thought it impressive that one of the soldiers managed by fire off 2 shots before he killed them all. Battle droids (and we all know how pathetic they are) get in WAY more than 1 shot at YODA. And battle droids are droids, so they technically shouldn't have any physiological impact. And this is also true when clone troopers were facing Yoda. I said that Qordis (I thought it was him, my bad) >>>> Yoda is UNlikely, same thing with the training thing. Just take a more careful look at it before insulting me:

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@Nai, to be honest greatest =/= largest

And yes, GAR wins. In PoD, a sith lord (too lazy to find name, since I read it a while ago, but it was Quordis or something) encountered a squad of the republics MOST ELITE soldiers that they could muster. After the fight, Quordis said that they were really good, so good that one even got in 2 shots before he killed them all. When Yoda fights battle droids (who aren't nearly as skilled as the upper elite soldiers), they manage to get in way more than 1 shot at him. This means:

a) Quordis >>>> Yoda (unlikely, he got beaten easily by Bane)
b) Old republic era soldiers weren't that well trained (unlikely, and that would work in GAR's favor so it would help them anyway)
c) The blasters weren't as advanced/high rate of fire (likely, given the 2000 year time gap)J
d) other

And Lucien, are you suggesting that the team wins? Then please explain instead of claiming that the other side makes stupid arguments, because at least I'm giving one.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowslittle
My point is that Kopez thought it impressive that one of the soldiers managed by fire off 2 shots before he killed them all. Battle droids (and we all know how pathetic they are) get in WAY more than 1 shot at YODA. And battle droids are droids, so they technically shouldn't have any physiological impact. And this is also true when clone troopers were facing Yoda. I said that Qordis (I thought it was him, my bad) >>>> Yoda is UNlikely, same thing with the training thing. Just take a more careful look at it before insulting me:

Here's the thing: you've made several assumptions that are not (and cannot possibly be) true.
Lemme rewrite this into logik form:
Given: Quordis is impressed by two shots being fired before he wins.
Given: Yoda allows far more than two shots to be fired before he wins.
Conclusion: Quordis > Yoda. [speed/lethality]

You've ignored several factors (deliberately or otherwise, it does not matter as I am operating on the assumption

Spoiler:
*bait*bait*bait*

This alone destroys the validity of your ABC but lets continue, shall we?

Problem 2: The troops Quordis fought were all mortal- they were not GE Mandalorian clones or soulless machines. As such, Quordis' opponents were all vulnerable to emotions and error while Yoda's were not- Yoda is again at a disadvantage.

If we again rephrase your logic, here's what we find:
Given: A does exceptionally well against C.
Conclusion: A >> C
Given: B does moderately well against D.
Conclusion: B > D.
Given: Conclusion 1 & 2
[Substitution property]A >> C
[Substitution Property]B > D
Conclusion: A > B

Faults: C =/= D so the transitive property does not apply.

Do you see how that works?
(Note: Upon review the major problems I noted were already pointed out by Lucien. Try to take others' opinions into account and respond to them rather than simply re-asserting your own position.)

Originally posted by Hewhoknowslittle

And Lucien, are you suggesting that the team wins? Then please explain instead of claiming that the other side makes stupid arguments, because at least I'm giving one.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Here's the thing: you've made several assumptions that are not (and cannot possibly be) true.
Lemme rewrite this into logik form:
Given: Quordis is impressed by two shots being fired before he wins.
Given: Yoda allows far more than two shots to be fired before he wins.
Conclusion: Quordis > Yoda. [speed/lethality]

You've ignored several factors (deliberately or otherwise, it does not matter as I am operating on the assumption

Spoiler:
*bait*bait*bait*

that you mean well).
Problem 1: Weaponry is not equal between the two eras. Droids' reaction time, ammo capacity and firing rate should all be higher than the troops Quordis fought.

This alone destroys the validity of your ABC but lets continue, shall we?

Problem 2: The troops Quordis fought were all mortal- they were not GE Mandalorian clones or soulless machines. As such, Quordis' opponents were all vulnerable to emotions and error while Yoda's were not- Yoda is again at a disadvantage.

If we again rephrase your logic, here's what we find:
Given: A does exceptionally well against C.
Conclusion: A >> C
Given: B does moderately well against D.
Conclusion: B > D.
Given: Conclusion 1 & 2
[Substitution property]A >> C
[Substitution Property]B > D
Conclusion: A > B

Faults: C =/= D so the transitive property does not apply.

Do you see how that works?
(Note: Upon review the major problems I noted were already pointed out by Lucien. Try to take others' opinions into account and respond to them rather than simply re-asserting your own position.)

He hasn't argued that at all. He's pointed out that your 'logic' regarding Qordis/Yoda was flawed. Strawmanning him into an easier position to attack isn't sound rhetoric. [/B]

WTF????? Are you even reading what I wrote? Or are you just playing dumb to annoy me? I said that it is UNlikely - not likely - but UNlikely that Kopez > Yoda, infact I said that it is more likely that it's the difference in tech and not in skill level of Kopez/Yoda that caused it. READ MY POST

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@Nai, to be honest greatest =/= largest

And yes, GAR wins. In PoD, a sith lord (too lazy to find name, since I read it a while ago, but it was Quordis or something) encountered a squad of the republics MOST ELITE soldiers that they could muster. After the fight, Quordis said that they were really good, so good that one even got in 2 shots before he killed them all. When Yoda fights battle droids (who aren't nearly as skilled as the upper elite soldiers), they manage to get in way more than 1 shot at him. This means:

a) Quordis >>>> Yoda (unlikely, he got beaten easily by Bane)
b) Old republic era soldiers weren't that well trained (unlikely, and that would work in GAR's favor so it would help them anyway)
c) The blasters weren't as advanced/high rate of fire (likely, given the 2000 year time gap)J
d) other

Notice this:

a) Quordis >>>> Yoda (UNLIKELY, SINCE HE GOT BEATEN BY BANE)

Hmmmm......

Hypocrite