Originally posted by WeltallSure it is, i love both jrpg and wrpg as each have their strengths.
I'm also generally not a fan of the Lord of the Rings style epic stories that WRPGs generally deliver, or of the freedom of choice and sense of exploration that a lot of WRPGs define themselves by. JRPGs, for me personally, have a lot more charm to them, and I prefer the general linear approach. It could be a taste thing...
Fair enough but you can agree in storyline and music that JRPGs are generally far superior right? Because I don't think storyline is as subjective as people say and that there are many key, objective measures that JRPGs generally outclass WRPGs in pretty thoroughly, such as complexity or depth of storyline.
But yeah, I guess I can accept that some people may favour non linearity and choice more so than an engaging storytelling experience, and may even find the gameplay in WRPGs more to their tastes. Even then, I'm personally more of a fan of strategic, command, turn/time based gameplay, but I can see people preferring more of the action approach that WRPGs generally offer.
Yes, it takes patience when playing JRPGs.
The plot makes you think (which most Americans aren't fond of) of how it will end.. the storyline twists, alternate endings, etc, are better in general than WRPGs.
The Japanese just come up with storylines and character designs no other race could even think of. Although there are exceptions.
it doesnt make you think at all imo. in fact id say the opposite. because jrpgs are linear as hell all you have to do is ride it out. with wrpgs that have multiple endings based off of your choices you have to consciously think throughout the entire game how your choices will affect the further storyline.
edit- "have to" is an exxageration.
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
it doesnt make you think at all imo. in fact id say the opposite. because jrpgs are linear as hell all you have to do is ride it out. with wrpgs that have multiple endings based off of your choices you have to consciously think throughout the entire game how your choices will affect the further storyline.
Most WRPGs aren't 'pure' RPGs.
WRPGs tend to incorporate elements from other genres, such as action, FPS, and/or strategy.
For example, Diablo is NOT a pure RPG.
In fact, it would be more appropriately categorized as a Strategy game, with a few RPG elements.
Pure RPGs are the ones which are turn-based, like the RPG progenitor Dungeons and Dragons.
Originally posted by WeltallAs far as stories generally i would say yes, JRPGs are better in that department because the stories has very strong foundations(ffvii and ffx), something that i feel WRPGs don't exactly match up to just yet.
Fair enough but you can agree in storyline and music that JRPGs are generally far superior right? Because I don't think storyline is as subjective as people say and that there are many key, objective measures that JRPGs generally outclass WRPGs in pretty thoroughly, such as complexity or depth of storyline.But yeah, I guess I can accept that some people may favour non linearity and choice more so than an engaging storytelling experience, and may even find the gameplay in WRPGs more to their tastes. Even then, I'm personally more of a fan of strategic, command, turn/time based gameplay, but I can see people preferring more of the action approach that WRPGs generally offer.
But what i like is the non linearity in WRPGs and the choices this and that but i respect your opinion neb if you think JRPGs are much better than WRPGs.
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Most WRPGs aren't 'pure' RPGs.WRPGs tend to incorporate elements from other genres, such as action, FPS, and/or strategy.
For example, Diablo is NOT a pure RPG.
In fact, it would be more appropriately categorized as a Strategy game, with a few RPG elements.Pure RPGs are the ones which are turn-based, like the RPG progenitor Dungeons and Dragons.
says who? where is this objective, all-powerful source that states what makes an rpg an rpg?
I would say that the typical JRPG are not considering "pure" RPG's either
For example, in dice roll RPG's you create a character with a backstory. Your essentially creating a character and letting him/her run around in a world that can be affected through the character's actions.
I never played D and D but I was under the impression thats how it is. Somebody creating a world and the players creating characters to occupy that create game world and story.
While in JRPG's, most of the characters are created for you and such. I don't play alot of JRPG's so I could be wrong but again, I'm the under the impression that the case.
In the end, it doesn't really matter. Both are RPG's. It all depends on what you think a RPG is. It's like saying COD: Modern Warfare 2 is not a shooter because it does not resemble Quake (using this an example because its the first real 3D shooter).
Copy and pasted from the SWF:
Originally posted by Weltall
I'll break it down simply.First, let's examine what a roleplaying game actually is.
A roleplaying game, by its basic, general, non-exclusive definition, is a game that is designed to draw the player into the role of the character.
The JRPG approach, in general terms, uses the storytelling technique of escapism, specifically player-into-character, by providing a linear, predetermined storyline for the player to follow and escape into the role of the character. Escapism is something that can be proven to be effective; examples include somebody crying during a particularly sad scene, or coming to hate the villain of the story, or wanting to see the hero win etc. It doesn't necessarily work in all cases; there are certain people who are completely disconnected from the story in that sense. However, this is something that definitely can work, and statistically speaking is something that can be said to work more often than not, and as such it is a valid approach to the objective that the genre is intended to meet.
The WRPG approach, in general terms, uses gameplay mechanics that are intended to create the illusion that the player is in complete control of the character, and that by extension that he is the character, by creating a non linear storyline with choices at his disposal that can result in a number of different storyline outcomes. However, this approach is not something that can be proven to be effective, and basic logic would dictate that it isn't.
Dialogue options generally number in the single digits at most, are not necessarily reflective of the player's personality, and yield into no more than a few potential variable outcomes. The choices at your disposal do not originate from you, the player, but are simply presented to you by the game itself. The total number of available choices that the game presents before you in proportion to the total number of available choices there would realistically be in any given situation is astronomically small. As such, basic logic would dictate that you would have to be of an inhumanly passive nature to feel in control of your character given just how limited the choices before you are, rather than largely restricted and separated from the character. Statistically speaking, humans are not of such a passive nature, and generally will make an innumerable amount of choices that aren't dictated by straightforward rules or routines dictated by others. So while this approach could be effective in some extremely rare, quite frankly odd cases, statistically speaking, it would be extremely ineffective in far more cases than it wouldn't, and I would imagine in the cases of everybody who posts in this forum. So ultimately, the approach quite simply can't be proven to be effective, and logically speaking, it generally wouldn't be.
So while a non linear game can't necessarily be said to be a bad thing, it can be said to be, in all likelihood, a bad roleplaying mechanic, and by extension, a roleplaying game that defines itself by this approach (pretty much every Bethesda game, the Fable games, the KotOR games etc.) can in all likelihood be said to be a bad RPG.
A side effect, as well, is that the creativity of the developers is filtered through multiple different branching storylines, and as such the quality of any single given chosen storyline is not being maximised to the full potential of the developers.
Another quite common side effect is that often, NPC dialogue is designed in a way that it can respond to a number of different dialogue options. This can be especially seen in a lot of Bioware games. The effect that this creates is that the dialogue, in a lot of cases, doesn't feel like it flows naturally.
A number of other side effects can occur due to this approach. The KotOR games, for instance, had a large emphasis on how your choices dictated your alignment, with the whole light side/dark side system. However, rather than putting some real thought into how they would implement this into your choices, the vast majority of these dialogue options corresponded with generic evil/good/neutral mindsets, but beyond that came across as really forced and unrealistic, to the point where these choices weren't so much based around the player's own personality, but around what response he wanted to see the most, or what path he wanted to take.
Really, it's a terrible approach to the genre.
In short, WVGRPGs attempt to emulate table top RPGs into a format that is not capable of supporting it, whereas JRPGs attempt to adapt the RPG into a format that is fully capable of supporting it.
As far as what a "real" RPG is, JRPGs fit the criteria far more than WRPGs do.
"A roleplaying game, by its basic, general, non-exclusive definition, is a game that is designed to draw the player into the role of the character."
The basic definition.
The RPG that actually meets the definition would be better labelled the "real" RPG.
Aside from a few claims that can mostly be agreed upon, and that I'm not willing to provide the evidence for, you'll find that everything flows logically.
Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
heh.. well the other side of the coin is that you're just some nobody who's destined to be / accidentally becomes a hero.. so it kinda sucks either way.. as it never really gets anymore complex
The most complex stories ever told can be found within JRPGs. Xenogears, Chrono Cross, and all three Xenosaga Episodes in particular.
Originally posted by WeltallI was saying in regards to first person RPGs where you are the nameless hero that drives the story..
The most complex stories ever told can be found within JRPGs. Xenogears, Chrono Cross, and all three Xenosaga Episodes in particular.
in all the games you mentioned (and also as backfire was saying), you are controlling someone who already has a name and face.. and have no real connection with the character, other than that you move the story along with him / her / it
basically its..
Western : You are the hero, chosen by fate vs. Eastern : You are Tidus, star blitzball player of the Zanarkand whatevers (Abes? lol)