Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And really, Qui-Gon didn't even come back as a ghost, just a voice.
that however is beside the point:
1) Qui-Gon
2) Marek
3) not sure...probably Marek
Originally posted by CadoAngelusNo he was just a voice. Obi-Wan talks to his disembodied voice in RoDV.
only as a voice in AotC, we don't even know if he came back as a full ghost at the end of RotS. unless anyone has hardcore evidence...that however is beside the point:
1) Qui-Gon
2) Marek
3) not sure...probably Marek
Originally posted by CadoAngelus
only as a voice in AotC, we don't even know if he came back as a full ghost at the end of RotS. unless anyone has hardcore evidence...that however is beside the point:
1) Qui-Gon
2) Marek
3) not sure...probably Marek
No offence, but I must disagree with the first part. No disrespect to Qui-Gon, I know he was a brilliant fighter, but it seems as if every "Marek vs" thread I read says "so-and-so wins at lightsabres but loses everything else," as if people feel they need to throw the opponent a bone.
Galen was an amazing duellist. He was a Juyo expert (which meant he was a high level master of multiple forms) and was proficient in Soresu and Djem So. He may even know some Makashi (at one point he is described as very graceful and efficient in combat, much like Dooku).
Plus he fought and defeated PROXY who was using Qui-Gon's skills. That gives him advance knowledge of how Qui-Gon fights.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Plus he fought and defeated PROXY who was using Qui-Gon's skills. That gives him advance knowledge of how Qui-Gon fights.
Although Proxy mimicked other's and their styles, he/it was nowhere in their league when it came to dueling. So, to use Proxy as a gauge of how GM would fair against said Jedi... well, it's quite flawed reasoning.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Although Proxy mimicked other's and their styles, he/it was nowhere in their league when it came to dueling. So, to use Proxy as a gauge of how GM would fair against said Jedi... well, it's quite flawed reasoning.
Beg your pardon, but no it's not.
I was simply pointing out that Galen's duels with PROXY mean that if he ever had to fight "the genuine article" he would have at least some idea of how they'd fight, whereas Qui-Gon (or whoever) wouldn't know anything about Galen. Advance knowledge of your enemy is always a plus.
Heck, Galen himself points out that PROXY can't duplicate Ataru precisely because he couldn't use the Force.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Beg your pardon, but no it's not.I was simply pointing out that Galen's duels with PROXY mean that if he ever had to fight "the genuine article" he would have at least some idea of how they'd fight, whereas Qui-Gon (or whoever) wouldn't know anything about Galen. Advance knowledge of your enemy is always a plus.
Heck, Galen himself points out that PROXY can't duplicate Ataru precisely because he couldn't use the Force.
Beg all you want... pardon denied... mwahahaha!!!
Seriously though... Why wouldn't Jinn have an idea as to Galen Marek? Is it because he has absolutely no idea what Shien and Soresu is? Of course he has some familiarity it. So therefore he has an idea of what combat w/ GM would be like... to some extent that is. Don't say he "wouldn't know anything about Galen." On the flip side, just because GM dueled w/ Proxy, doesn't necessarily give him some great advantage over Jinn. Here (foreign analogy coming up), if I fight/box w/ a robot who's programmed to mimic Mike Tyson's peek-a-boo style, I'd still have no REAL idea as to what it'd be like to fight the real Mike Tyson. Yes, I'd know what it'd be like to fight against his particular style, but not against the real him. What I'm saying is that Jinn is likely as familiar w/ GM's style(s) of combat, as GM is w/ Jinn's.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Beg all you want... pardon denied... mwahahaha!!!Seriously though... Why wouldn't Jinn have an idea as to Galen Marek? Is it because he has absolutely no idea what Shien and Soresu is? Of course he has some familiarity it. So therefore he has an idea of what combat w/ GM would be like... to some extent that is. Don't say he "wouldn't know anything about Galen." On the flip side, just because GM dueled w/ Proxy, doesn't necessarily give him some great advantage over Jinn. Here (foreign analogy coming up), if I fight/box w/ a robot who's programmed to mimic Mike Tyson's peek-a-boo style, I'd still have no REAL idea as to what it'd be like to fight the real Mike Tyson. Yes, I'd know what it'd be like to fight against his particular style, but not against the real him. What I'm saying is that Jinn is likely as familiar w/ GM's style(s) of combat, as GM is w/ Jinn's.
I'd say thats a very valid point. Simply because Galen trains with a robot capable of "replicating" characters fighting styles, doesn't mean he'll have the advantage. For instance, Qui-Gon could decide to completely mess his tactics around to that particular fight and completely mind-**** Galen, or he could fight like a boring old tart...
Stating that Galen has the hand because he's fought Qui-Gon before but Qui-Gon hasn't fought Galen is flawed...Galens not fought any of the people PROXY replicates...apart from Vader
There is no doubt that Galen is anything less than a masterful lightsaber duellist. Ignoring the fact that he is directly stated to have mastered lightsaber combat to its highest degree, while Juno watches him and Proxy fight she is literally awed by his skill, noting how subtle and refined his style is and how even tiny movements of his fingers create devastating attacks. Not to mention that he held his own with Vader, so unless you believe Jinn can beat him.....
Originally posted by Nephthys
There is no doubt that Galen is anything less than a masterful lightsaber duellist. Ignoring the fact that he is directly stated to have mastered lightsaber combat to its highest degree, while Juno watches him and Proxy fight she is literally awed by his skill, noting how subtle and refined his style is and how even tiny movements of his fingers create devastating attacks. Not to mention that he held his own with Vader, so unless you believe Jinn can beat him.....
And Jinn wasn't a masterful duelist? Also, Vader was but a mere shell of his former self once he had to be confined to the suit. So, "holding his own" doesn't carry a ton of weight here. And yes, I think Jinn would have defeated suited Vader in a duel. Hell, he would have given pre-suit Vader/Anakin more than he wanted. Also, Juno's thoughts of GM's dueling prowess mean little, as she hadn't witnessed other Jedi/Sith in battle, and therefore had nothing to compare him to. Anyone watching a Jedi/Sith/other force user in battle for the first time (or any subsequent time for that matter, but especially the first) is going to be floored by their speed, quickness, reflexes, and such. GM was a proficient duelist, don't get me wrong, but I think Jinn might have been more refined so far as lightsaber combat goes.
Where does this image of Jinn= pwner come from. Seriously, the guy has one failed duel to his name.
Also, Vader was but a mere shell of his former self once he had to be confined to the suit.
He hardly sucks. The guy took out 4 jedi knights at once in RODV, butchered wookies left, right and centre and beat one of the best duelists of the order. Not to mention he cobbled together a completely new style by himself out of 4 different forms. In fact I believe he says himself that by the end of the book he's close to his old level. Not to mention his vastly superior force powers (which is real importance in duels) would carry him to victory. The same can be said for Marek.
'PROXY didn't stay still for a second, attacking from the ground, the walls, the ceiling, even from midair. It was like watching a dance, but one in which the slightest slip could mean death. Starkiller danced with him long enough for her to worry, then he changed his style to match that of the droids- and suddenly she could see the difference between the human and the mechanical. Where PROXY had been fast, Starkiller was graceful as well. Where PROXY had simply slashed and stabbed, Sarkiller applied flourishes to his offensive strikes. Where every move PROXY made involved his entire body, Starkiller could launch an attack with one finger, or block by shifting his foot a single centimeter'
Show me where Jinn displays that level of refinement and we'll talk.
Originally posted by Nephthys
'PROXY didn't stay still for a second, attacking from the ground, the walls, the ceiling, even from midair. It was like watching a dance, but one in which the slightest slip could mean death. Starkiller danced with him long enough for her to worry, then he changed his style to match that of the droids- and suddenly she could see the difference between the human and the mechanical. Where PROXY had been fast, Starkiller was graceful as well. Where PROXY had simply slashed and stabbed, Sarkiller applied flourishes to his offensive strikes. Where every move PROXY made involved his entire body, [b]Starkiller could launch an attack with one finger, or block by shifting his foot a single centimeter'Show me where Jinn displays that level of refinement and we'll talk. [/B]
Exactly. Thank you Nephthys.
Jinn was obviously good enough, even at a young age, to impress Count Dooku, which wasn't easy in the least, given the count's level of arrogance and own dueling superiority. Also, while not an actual combat scenario, he sparred with Mace "BMF" Windu on several occasions with neither of them coming out on top. That's a hell of an accomplishment, even if Mace hadn't reached his peak yet. Moreover, the following quote lends credence to my stance; "The Jedi lightsaber master who taught Qui-Gon had considered him the best lightsaber duelist he had seen in over 400 years of teaching in the Jedi Order." So yes, Qui-Gon was a damn good duelist. Not on the level of Yoda, Mace, or Dooku, but very good nonetheless.
And quotes regarding suited Vader, and his AWESOME accomplishments would be well appreciated. While he is definitely a formidable and deadly combatant, Vader, once he became confined to the suit, was nowhere near where he was beforehand.