Inception

Originally posted by Stall_19
The way I understand it is that the architect designs the environment and teaches it to the dreamer. We saw Ariadne teaching the designs to each of the dreamers. So the architect only designed but the dreamer creates the levels based on the designs.

I'm a little confused by your use of the word "mark". When Cobbs was teaching Ariadne the workings of the dream, she was the dreamer and he brought his subconscious into the dream. But with Fisher who I believe was the mark you were talking about, he was never the dreamer. So he never had any hand in creating the world, which is the point. Because if he did create the world then his subconscious who know the layout defeating the purpose of having an architect designing the dream.

To be clear, the dreamer on the first level was the chemist. I know that because they commented the rain was a result of him drinking too much before going into the dream. That's also why he didn't go under again because that level would fall apart if he did.

The dreamer on the second level was Arthur as he made the comment that Fisher's subconscious would be looking for him. That is why he didn't go under the second time, because alas the dream would fall apart.

The dreamer on the snow level was Eames. I know that because when they missed the first kick and needed a shortcut through the level Cobbs asked Ariadne if Eames added any features. Also that's why they needed Eames to distract the projections because they would naturally go after the dreamer. That's why he couldn't go into limbo because the dream would fall apart without him.

Don't ask me about Limbo because I don't know, but at no point was Fisher the dreamer, so he had no part in the creation of the dream. All he did was filled it with his subconscious.

No, Fischer was the dreamer for all three levels. Those were his projections, too. If what you say is true, then we would have projections from the other "riders", as well as Fischers.

Does that answer you question or am I missing something?

Also, we know that the "dream-scape" is largely the memory of the mark (dreamer) because Fischer was leaving his office, on his phone, and seemed to be right at home in his own memories, remember?

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, Fischer was the dreamer for all three levels. Those were his projections, too. If what you say is true, then we would have projections from the other "riders", as well as Fischers.

No, Fischer was not the dreamer for those three levels. Though the team did lie to Fischer and convince him that he was the one who was dreaming. The second level - the one where Cobb convinced Fischer that he (being cobb) was a manifestation of Fischers sub-conscious - was actually Arthur's dream. They say that several times.

Thats why when Fischer realizes that he is asleep (which is probably what is confusing you, because yes - they are all indeed sleeping) that Fischer's subconscious manifestations look for Arthur.

Just realized that Stall already pointed that out to you dudeman. He's right all the way through.

Originally posted by Quincy
No, Fischer was not the dreamer for those three levels. Though the team did lie to Fischer and convince him that he was the one who was dreaming. The second level - the one where Cobb convinced Fischer that he (being cobb) was a manifestation of Fischers sub-conscious - was actually Arthur's dream. They say that several times.

Thats why when Fischer realizes that he is asleep (which is probably what is confusing you, because yes - they are all indeed sleeping) that Fischer's subconscious manifestations look for Arthur.

Just realized that Stall already pointed that out to you dudeman. He's right all the way through.

Actually, you're right. (and so is the other due)

It goes Yusuf, Arhtur, and then Eames.

So why are Fischer's projections attacking in all 3 layers? Yes, I'm aware he has extraction training, but they are not his dreams. Shouldn't there be projections from Yusuf in layer 1, projections from Arthur in layer 2, and projections from Eames in layer 3?

Why are there hosts in all three layers, attacking the group? Is that just a plot hole or did Nolan forget that he explained, from Cobbs to Adriedne, that the projections are subconscious projections of the "mark" that act like white-blood cells to flush out the intruder?

Seems that way.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, Fischer was the dreamer for all three levels. Those were his projections, too. If what you say is true, then we would have projections from the other "riders", as well as Fischers.

Does that answer you question or am I missing something?

Also, we know that the "dream-scape" is largely the memory of the mark (dreamer) because Fischer was leaving his office, on his phone, and seemed to be right at home in his own memories, remember?

Don't you remember Cobbs explaining that you can never remember the beginning of a dream, that you're always smack in the middle of it. Remember Ariadne couldn't remediable how they got to the coffee stand.

Also if Fisher was the dreamer, how could Arthur pull off the staircase paradox trick on one of the projections.

they did the inception on cobbs

Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, you're right. (and so is the other due)

It goes Yusuf, Arhtur, and then Eames.

So why are Fischer's projections attacking in all 3 layers? Yes, I'm aware he has extraction training, but they are not his dreams. Shouldn't there be projections from Yusuf in layer 1, projections from Arthur in layer 2, and projections from Eames in layer 3?

Why are there hosts in all three layers, attacking the group? Is that just a plot hole or did Nolan forget that he explained, from Cobbs to Adriedne, that the projections are subconscious projections of the "mark" that act like white-blood cells to flush out the intruder?

Seems that way.

Because they are aware that they are in someone elses dream. The projections are trained to notice the strangeness of the dream.

I don't think the dreamer brings it's projections into the dream. If they do then they're harmless as they realize they're not in someone elses dream.

As far as Fishers projection attacking in all three layer, remember Cobb's projections attacked Ariadne in Ariadne's dream. The point is they are attacking because they realize they are in someone elses dream, so they attack the dreamer.

I'm not sure if I understand the third question. If you're asking why the projections attacked the dreamer rather than the people intruding into the dream, then the answer is that he explained that it works the other way. That the projections realize that they are in someone elses dream. It's not the dreamers projections attacking the other people in his or her dream it's the other people's projections attacking the dreamer to because they sense the foreign nature of the dream and know they've been brought into another person's dream.

Originally posted by Stall_19
Also if Fisher was the dreamer, how could Arthur pull off the staircase paradox trick on one of the projections.

That one is simple: "riders" can manipulate things inside the dreams. 🙂

Originally posted by Stall_19
Because they are aware that they are in someone elses dream. The projections are trained to notice the strangeness of the dream.

If that were the case, why did the people start to get pissed at Adriedne when she was riding Cobb's dream?

Originally posted by Stall_19
As far as Fishers projection attacking in all three layer, remember Cobb's projections attacked Ariadne in Ariadne's dream. The point is they are attacking because they realize they are in someone elses dream, so they attack the dreamer.

The only problem with that: they were in Cobbs dreams, not Adriedne's. If it were the other way around, then you'd actually have a really good point.

Originally posted by Stall_19
I'm not sure if I understand the third question. If you're asking why the projections attacked the dreamer rather than the people intruding into the dream, then the answer is that he explained that it works the other way. That the projections realize that they are in someone elses dream. It's not the dreamers projections attacking the other people in his or her dream it's the other people's projections attacking the dreamer to because they sense the foreign nature of the dream and know they've been brought into another person's dream.

See my previous point.

Originally posted by dadudemon
[B]Actually, you're right. (and so is the other due)

It goes Yusuf, Arhtur, and then Eames.

So why are Fischer's projections attacking in all 3 layers? Yes, I'm aware he has extraction training, but they are not his dreams. Shouldn't there be projections from Yusuf in layer 1, projections from Arthur in layer 2, and projections from Eames in layer 3?

Originally posted by dadudemon
That one is simple: "riders" can manipulate things inside the dreams. 🙂

If that were the case, why did the people start to get pissed at Adriedne when she was riding Cobb's dream?

The only problem with that: they were in Cobbs dreams, not Adriedne's. If it were the other way around, then you'd actually have a really good point.

See my previous point.

Riders can't manipulate other people's dreams.

Ariadne was attacked by Cobb's subconscious because they were in HER dream. That's why when Cobb told her that, she started to bug out for a minute and things started to collapse.

Again - they are in Ariadne's dream. NOT Cobbs.

Alot of people find Inception confusing, so its not that big a deal that you don't know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Quincy
Riders can't manipulate other people's dreams.

Ariadne was attacked by Cobb's subconscious because they were in HER dream. That's why when Cobb told her that, she started to bug out for a minute and things started to collapse.

Again - they are in Ariadne's dream. NOT Cobbs.

Alot of people find Inception confusing, so its not that big a deal that you don't know what you're talking about.

Whatever. You guys are right.

I don't give a shit because my points haven't changed at all.

Edit -
Wait, I am not willing to give this point up, yet. I'm still certain it was Cobb's dream. Cobb said that the projections attack the person that is "riding the dream" if they make things too suspicious. The dream memories were from Cobb, as well.

It is the point that Cobb tells her that it is a dream that she freaks out. Because she's an architect type, she starts spazing. I still think it was Cobb's dream.

I'll have to see the movie a second time as I don't remember Cobbs saying it was anyone's dream...but it looks like it was implied that she was the intruder (quite blatantly).

Originally posted by Quincy
Riders can't manipulate other people's dreams.

Well, I had time to think about it and your point, Quincy, about Adriedne's "learning" adventure with Cobbs could have multiple interpretations.

Cobbs didn't remember anything before that point, either. Since the elements were pulled from his memory, it is far more likely that it was his dream than hers. Make sense?

i saw this movie last night.. loved it.. the movie wasn't that tough to follow.. on the other hand, this movie wasn't meant to be seen only once.. i took most of it in but i still feel that there's way more that needs to be considered.. i will be dissecting this movie when it comes out on DVD.. i think i found my second "the matrix"..

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think what I said is more accurate. There's no way that an architect can recreate all of those elements.

Remember when Cobbs is taking Ariadne for a walk through HIS memories when he is training her? That entire scene explained the whole thing for us and it is quite clear that the "mark" is doing most of the creating, via the subconscious, with the architect "assisting" with that creation proces. The only way for the architect to do as you say is if the architect was Professor X or Aro (from twilight), and we know that that is not true.

The vast majority of the "dream" is actually the mark's memories being recalled by the Mark's subconscious and the architect creates or recreates certain elements or at least manipulates certain elements to "guide" the mark to increase the probability of a successful extraction.

Yeah I remember the scene. I also remember him saying and her being surprised that she was creating then entire place and then she proceeded to mess with the physics of it which is when Cobb's subconscious started to look for her. (Incidentally I liked the idea that they could have spoken to any of the inhabitants of the dream world in order to find out more about the Mark's subconscious as they were manifestations of it)

Remember that she even made places from her own memory and got scalded for it (the mirrors scene)
"We create the world of the dream. They (the mark) come in to that dream and fill it with their secrets"

They even discuss the fact that she has to make the dream like a labyrinth and it must be completely unknown to him so as his subconscious projection of Mal doesn't try and sabotage the job. (When he was asking if there was a quick route through)

Originally posted by jaden101
Yeah I remember the scene. I also remember him saying and her being surprised that she was creating then entire place and then she proceeded to mess with the physics of it which is when Cobb's subconscious started to look for her. (Incidentally I liked the idea that they could have spoken to any of the inhabitants of the dream world in order to find out more about the Mark's subconscious as they were manifestations of it)

Remember that she even made places from her own memory and got scalded for it (the mirrors scene)
"We create the world of the dream. They (the mark) come in to that dream and fill it with their secrets"

They even discuss the fact that she has to make the dream like a labyrinth and it must be completely unknown to him so as his subconscious projection of Mal doesn't try and sabotage the job. (When he was asking if there was a quick route through)

Yeah, I got those parts.

So, I'm starting to come around.

All of the "players" can have projections in the dreams, but only Cobbs has a projection and that's Mal. People that have been fortified have passive projections that will pop-up into dream that are participating in...but why do his show up and not Cobbs (besides Mal)?

Well, really, the only thing I've succeeded in doing is illustrating that there's really no rule for whose projections show up where..cept for Cobbs, which is everywhere and it's only Mal.

I really need to watch it a second time.

And, yeah, I understand the maze thing: it's to keep Mal out of Cobbs business when they are running away. But I that dream that both Adriedne and Cobbs are in, in the first training session, there's no way to determine whose dream that was. I searched the net for an answer and I could not find anything specific beyond "they both enter a dream."

Is it possible that there are unhosted dreams? That would explain that large group of people dreaming together, of course.

I think, perhaps, the team are trained not to allow their subconscious projections interfere with the dream as, just like messing with the physics of the building, this would indicate to the person who's dream it is (the mark's) that something is in the dream that is not of their projection and would be a hint that someone is hijacking their dream.

As for that training dream with Ariadne and Cobb, if I remember correctly, he tells her that she is creating the world and the subconscious projections (all the people) are his.

YouTube video

From about 1:18

She's creating the world and doesn't even know it. It's only once he tells her that it starts to fall apart.

And forgot to say that in the case of Cobb, Mal's part in his subconscious is so strong and ingrained that it manifests itself (probably indicating a mental health problem of some sort)

Makes you wonder what sort of ****ed up shit someone with serious head problems would project.

Interesting article about the whole "Cobb being the real subject of inception" theory - http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2010/07/inception_theory.html

Decent interview with Nolan - http://www.film.com/features/story/interview-christopher-nolan-talks-inception/39220341