Wolverine, Batman vs Black Panther, Hawkman..

Originally posted by Enyalus
^ Batman would beat Hawkman. He's already WTFowned Hawkgirl.

He wouldn't, even Bruce admitted he wouldn't....and Hawkgirl is a far cry from Hawkman he has even owned her worse then Batman did 😬

Originally posted by Trackz
is claw of horus standard equipment? and my bad I didnt see the other thread.

Yes, and the thing is he has other equipment that would be very effective here. Thanagarian neural guns, atom destroyers etc. but I digress, I'm starting to enjoy some of these comments claiming to know Hawkman.

He wouldn't, even Bruce admitted he wouldn't....and Hawkgirl is a far cry from Hawkman he has even owned her worse then Batman did

Not true.

Bruce only said that Carter had the advantage straight up due to flight when they faced off briefly in Superman Batman. When they fought JLA, a mind controlled Batman actually defeated Hawkman in hth combat.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
Not true.

Bruce only said that Carter had the advantage straight up due to flight when they faced off briefly in Superman Batman. When they fought JLA, a mind controlled Batman actually defeated Hawkman in hth combat.

Your talking about their encounter in Superman/Batman (and we clearly know he has more advantages then just flight), I'm talking about their encounter in Brave & the Bold. He beat Hawman who was holding back trying to get to Batman and he lost his wings as Despero ripped them off and right before he fought Batman he was fighting Aquaman until Despero attacked him. Some key details there.

Your talking about their encounter in Superman/Batman (and we clearly know he has more advantages then just flight),

I brought up this scene because you stated that Bruce admitted that he wouldn't beat Hawkman which he never said. In this encounter, Bruce only says that Carter has an advantage due to flight and nothing else. However, Carter does get in a good blow on Bruce to his credit before Superman and Batman switch opponents.

The only other advantage Carter seems to have btw is his strength and healing factor as far as I can tell.

I'm talking about their encounter in Brave & the Bold. He beat Hawman who was holding back trying to get to Batman and he lost his wings as Despero ripped them off and right before he fought Batman he was fighting Aquaman until Despero attacked him. Some key details there.

Actually, you're refering to the JLA: Crisis of Conscience arc not Brave & the Bold which is the fight I'm talking about as well.

As far as holding back goes, it was pretty clear while Carter was trying to talk Bruce down he was also attempting to take him down and failed. His fight with Aquaman IIRC wasn't really shown so we don't know how long that lasted or what happened but Carter really didn't look injuried when he decided to engage Bruce in combat.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it a fact that Carter still has Nth metal in his belt and boots as well? So wouldn't he still have access to his abilities?

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
I brought up this scene because you stated that Bruce admitted that he wouldn't beat Hawkman which he never said. In this encounter, Bruce only says that Carter has an advantage due to flight and nothing else. However, Carter does get in a good blow on Bruce to his credit before Superman and Batman switch opponents.

The only other advantage Carter seems to have btw is his strength and healing factor as far as I can tell.

You brought up a reference to a scene I wasn't talking about, he said it in Brave and the Bold. your referencing another event that occured in SUPERMAN/BATMAN...how do you not get that? 😬 Yeah and we know Hawkman has far more strengths then that.

He also has technology, durability, speed, experience, animal summoning (giving him powers similar to Animal Man and calling thousands of birds), far superior senses, can suck out the air in the area creating air funnels with his wings, superior reflexes, etc, etc. Hawkman is far more then just a guy who flies.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
Actually, you're refering to the JLA: Crisis of Conscience arc not Brave & the Bold which is the fight I'm talking about as well.

As far as holding back goes, it was pretty clear while Carter was trying to talk Bruce down he was also attempting to take him down and failed. His fight with Aquaman IIRC wasn't really shown so we don't know how long that lasted or what happened but Carter really didn't look injuried when he decided to engage Bruce in combat.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it a fact that Carter still has Nth metal in his belt and boots as well? So wouldn't he still have access to his abilities?

No I was not refering to that actually I was referencing where Batman said it in BRAVE AND THE BOLD, and Crisis of Consience is the Despero incident which I mentioned earlier. Is this a joke?

Let's put it this way, Hawkman was just earlier holding back Aquaman from fighting and Hawkman's blows have knocked Despero's teeth out, and his punches have hurt Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, etc. so your actually going to say Batman can merely shrug off blows like he did from a serious Hawkman which clearly he wasn't? Once again I'll ask...is this a joke?

Yes, but some writers don't know that and he admitted they assumed wings were his source of power. Like how when Deastroke fought the JLA and removed Hawkman's wings making him powerless (not true)...DS later went on and beat Green Latnern, Flash and various others in silly ways.

Black Panther, Hawkman FTW

You brought up a reference to a scene I wasn't talking about, he said it in Brave and the Bold. your referencing another event that occured in SUPERMAN/BATMAN...how do you not get that? Yeah and we know Hawkman has far more strengths then that.

Please enlight me on which Brave and the Bold issue you're talking about then.

He also has technology,

I hope you're not suggesting that Carter carries better tech/weaponry then Bruce? The only thing he may have over Bruce in this area is the Claw of Horus and as far as I know he doesn't use this against humans only top tiers.

durability

What are his best showings in endurance? I know about his healing factor but what are some of his best showings?

speed

If you factoring in flight of course he's faster then Bruce.

experience,

How often has this made the difference in his fights?

Considering how Bruce has fought and beaten opponents like Ra's Al Ghul and The Sensei I don't think it will matter especially since Bruce is a better tactican.

animal summoning (giving him powers similar to Animal Man and calling thousands of birds),

How often does he use this in battle?

far superior senses,

This is a given but I don't see it making a big difference.

can suck out the air in the area creating air funnels with his wings,

Which is another trick he doesn't normally use in battle.

superior reflexes,

I doubt this. But show me examples.

Hawkman is far more then just a guy who flies.

I aware of this but based what I've seen from him thus far I can't say for sure that he's a superior combatant then Bruce which hasn't been that much barring some good showings against top tiers. Granted, to be fair it could just be due to a lack of appearances.

No I was not refering to that actually I was referencing where Batman said it in BRAVE AND THE BOLD, and Crisis of Consience is the Despero incident which I mentioned earlier. Is this a joke?

Sorry for the mix up thats my mistake.

Let's put it this way, Hawkman was just earlier holding back Aquaman from fighting

Batman has beaten Aquaman in hth combat.

Hawkman's blows have knocked Despero's teeth out,

Batman has made Darkseid bleed with a kick (stupid I know but still since we're comparing high showings here...)

and his punches have hurt Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman,

Meanwhile, Batman has take down Grodd with 1 kick something that Wally couldn't do with 3000 punches, knocked Kid Amazo off his feet with 1 kick, and even held down Lobo in a choke hold.

so your actually going to say Batman can merely shrug off blows like he did from a serious Hawkman which clearly he wasn't? Once again I'll ask...is this a joke?

Well considering the fact that Batman has withstood repeated blows from the likes of Killer Croc and Clayface who are both much stronger then Bruce and still went on to defeat them in combat yes I would say so. But if you think that Bruce shouldn't be able to withstand blows from Hawkman and still be standing please feel free to try and prove me wrong. I'll be more then glad to show you why Bruce's endurance would enable him to stand up to Carter best blows and still win in straight hth combat.

Also, what highly skilled fighters has Carter beaten that would make you think that he could take Batman for the majority in a hth fight? I'm curious about this.

Yes, but some writers don't know that and he admitted they assumed wings were his source of power. Like how when Deastroke fought the JLA and removed Hawkman's wings making him powerless (not true)...DS later went on and beat Green Latnern, Flash and various others in silly ways.

Interesting enough I've noticed Carter has lost his wings in battle against Slade and The Spider two skilled human fighters.

BTW, I'm really not a fan of the Identity Crisis fight either as it was badly written but still.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
Please enlight me on which Brave and the Bold issue you're talking about then.

I'll have to dig up the scans, but I plan on remasterting the Hawkman respect thread

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

I hope you're not suggesting that Carter carries better tech/weaponry then Bruce? The only thing he may have over Bruce in this area is the Claw of Horus and as far as I know he doesn't use this against humans only top tiers.

Absolutely, the nth metal have the ability to control the very fundamentals of the universe as noted by Onimar Synn, and his neural gun can instantly KO anyone that gets hit with it. Hawkman has tech that keeps gods at bay ie. The Hawk God. Bruce does not come close and that's a fact.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

What are his best showings in endurance? I know about his healing factor but what are some of his best showings?

Go for weeks without sleep during the Rann/Thanagar war taking on thousands of soliders.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

If you factoring in flight of course he's faster then Bruce.

I'm not, Hawkman is a metahuman that has enhanced phsyical abilities. He can even jump 30 feet int he air without his wings.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

How often has this made the difference in his fights?

Considering how Bruce has fought and beaten opponents like Ra's Al Ghul and The Sensei I don't think it will matter especially since Bruce is a better tactican.

Quite abit actually as gainst vampire he pulled out experiences with his previous life when he was a preist, and has used magical abilities from his previous lives too

Hawkman has been fighting for 4,000 years. Hawkman > Batman (experience)

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

How often does he use this in battle?

During vol.3 when he was just Kator Holl he used it quite abit actually, and recently Hawkman has been doing the bird summon thing in battles too even did it a few months ago in JLA: Classified.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

This is a given but I don't see it making a big difference.

What? His senses are so advanced he can follow speedsters, and when Flash was vibrating so fast only Hawkman could see him as he was invisable to everyone else. This helps in his reaction time.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Which is another trick he doesn't normally use in battle..

What? He has used that quite frequently actually, and even uses the wind attack to reverse attacks against other people like what he did against Captain Boomerang.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

I doubt this. But show me examples.

There's a whole respect thread laid out, he routinely fights and beats mind you speedsters

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

I aware of this but based what I've seen from him thus far I can't say for sure that he's a superior combatant then Bruce which hasn't been that much barring some good showings against top tiers. Granted, to be fair it could just be due to a lack of appearances.

Then I suggest you read more as he has a lot of apperances and consistently goes against top tier fighters

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Batman has beaten Aquaman in hth combat.

When he was weakened, and Aquaman has one-shotted Batman...twice.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Batman has made Darkseid bleed with a kick (stupid I know but still since we're comparing high showings here...)

once again after DS was weakened as he was taking a full blast from Highfather's staff.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
Meanwhile, Batman has take down Grodd with 1 kick something that Wally couldn't do with 3000 punches, knocked Kid Amazo off his feet with 1 kick, and even held down Lobo in a choke hold.

Errrr? Wally has one-shotted Grodd before. He held Lobo in a choke hold but overall did nothing.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Well considering the fact that Batman has withstood repeated blows from the likes of Killer Croc and Clayface who are both much stronger then Bruce and still went on to defeat them in combat yes I would say so. But if you think that Bruce shouldn't be able to withstand blows from Hawkman and still be standing please feel free to try and prove me wrong. I'll be more then glad to show you why Bruce's endurance would enable him to stand up to Carter best blows and still win in straight hth combat.

Also, what highly skilled fighters has Carter beaten that would make you think that he could take Batman for the majority in a hth fight? I'm curious about this.

Hawkman is far stronger then Croc and Clayface, so I don't get that comparision. In vol.3, mace attacks even rocked SUperman. So no I don't think Batman can shrug off blows from a serious Hawkman.

He's destroyed Vandal Savage close to 10 times, and Vandal as noted is one of the best fighters in the DCU. Then you have the thangarian priests that lived for 100 years training to fight, Deadline, etc, etc.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Interesting enough I've noticed Carter has lost his wings in battle against Slade and The Spider two skilled human fighters.

BTW, I'm really not a fan of the Identity Crisis fight either as it was badly written but still.

When he fought the spider the written went with without the wings he was powerless, but a few issues later Hawkgirl was flying without the wings.

Originally posted by -K-M-

Let's put it this way, Hawkman was just earlier holding back Aquaman from fighting and Hawkman's blows have knocked Despero's teeth out, and his punches have hurt Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, etc. so your actually going to say Batman can merely shrug off blows like he did from a serious Hawkman which clearly he wasn't? Once again I'll ask...is this a joke?

Originally posted by Juntai
Batman beat the shit out of Aquaman straight up. Trading punches.
😄

Weakened damn it! 😠

I think I am changing my vote Batman solos.

Absolutely, the nth metal have the ability to control the very fundamentals of the universe as noted by Onimar Synn, and his neural gun can instantly KO anyone that gets hit with it. Hawkman has tech that keeps gods at bay ie. The Hawk God. Bruce does not come close and that's a fact.

You do know I'm talking about standard gear here and not the full arsenal of resources that both have access to? I'm not about to say that Bruce will pull out his new genesis boom tube glove and use it from his sci-fi closest (btw Bruce has Thanagarian wings) and use it for this fight especially when he don't normally see him do that.

But if I'm understanding you correctly you're saying that Carter carries around tech of this caliber at all times? If this were the case why is it that he hasn't pulled it out against any top tiers when he's fought them? So either Carter doesn't carry around tech like this normally as you may think or he perfers to fight more like a warrior and engage in melee combat like Bruce does when fighting 1 on 1 against skilled opponents.

Go for weeks without sleep during the Rann/Thanagar war taking on thousands of soliders.

That's it? Impressive but I'll need more then this especially since I'm leaning more towards endurance showings that show how well he can take punishment.

I'm not, Hawkman is a metahuman that has enhanced phsyical abilities. He can even jump 30 feet int he air without his wings.

So show me some speed feats. If he's really faster then Bruce I'll fairly concede to the fact that he is.

Quite abit actually as gainst vampire he pulled out experiences with his previous life when he was a preist, and has used magical abilities from his previous lives too

Hawkman has been fighting for 4,000 years. Hawkman > Batman (experience)

Yet again we've seen Ra's Al Ghul and The Sensei (who's has centuries of combat training and was still outsmarted) get beaten by Bruce. Experience is NOT gonna play a big factor in this battle especially when Bruce is a superior tactican then Carter despite his experience which should tell you that it won't matter.

During vol.3 when he was just Kator Holl he used it quite abit actually, and recently Hawkman has been doing the bird summon thing in battles too even did it a few months ago in JLA: Classified.

When I said how often I should've said how often does he use it in 1 on 1 fights against opponents like Batman for example because he doesn't seem to do it at all judging from the fights I've seen him in.

What? His senses are so advanced he can follow speedsters, and when Flash was vibrating so fast only Hawkman could see him as he was invisable to everyone else. This helps in his reaction time.

Bruce's deductive reasoning would counter that. As proof of this, we've seen Bruce quickly deduce how Tezumak was actually anticipating Flash's attacks in battle while Flash myself thought it was because Tezumak was just fast enough to do so. There's also Bruce's stealth to consider something that Carter wouldn't have an answer for even with his senses.

What? He has used that quite frequently actually, and even uses the wind attack to reverse attacks against other people like what he did against Captain Boomerang.

One showing isn't enough for me. Show me examples where he normally uses this trick in 1 on 1 fights against opponents like Batman.

That's not to say however that I'm totally writting off this tactic but I need examples of him using regularly in 1 on 1 fights.

There's a whole respect thread laid out, he routinely fights and beats mind you speedsters

Like who? I'm aware of his showing in JSA but what else?

Then I suggest you read more as he has a lot of apperances and consistently goes against top tier fighters

Believe it or not I'm actually a Hawkman fan as well (no where near as big as you obviously) but I'm just saying I haven't actually seen him go up against many top tier combatants like Batman has and do well especially when he's lost to Bruce in hth combat.

In otherwords, I need to see examples of how well he does against highly skilled opponents similar to Bruce not top tiers.

When he was weakened, and Aquaman has one-shotted Batman...twice.

No he wasn't.

However, Arthur does mention that he wasn't fully used to being outside of water since this was back when the JLA was still in its early stages and both Bruce and Arthur were younger. He was definitely at full power but I will say that Arthur has become more powerful since then.

As far as Aquaman one shotting Batman goes, I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen since Arthur is far stronger after all but you should know that Bruce has withstood attacks from much more stronger then Aruthur and gotten quickly back on his feet to fight consistently.

Still, I'd like to know where those 1 shotting encounters happened that you're talking about.

once again after DS was weakened as he was taking a full blast from Highfather's staff.

Actually, DS was back on his feet moments later after being blasted and admitted to Dessad that his omega powers had been restored on top of taking repeated punches from an enraged Superman not to long after Batman's kick.

Hawkman is far stronger then Croc and Clayface, so I don't get that comparision. In vol.3, mace attacks even rocked SUperman. So no I don't think Batman can shrug off blows from a serious Hawkman.

Croc maybe... but Clayface no way.

Considering that Batman actually took a shot to the face from Hawkman's mace and was still able to continue fighting (on top of having just went through a gauntlet of super villains and heroes alongside Superman) I still don't buy you're agruement.

He's destroyed Vandal Savage close to 10 times, and Vandal as noted is one of the best fighters in the DCU. Then you have the thangarian priests that lived for 100 years training to fight, Deadline, etc, etc.

Vandal is impressive but what martial artists has Carter had good showings against on the same level as Bruce or better? Getting beaten in hth combat by Bruce is what makes me believe Carter isn't as good as you may believe him to be. So unless, you can show me examples of him defeating martial artists like Bruce in hth combat I can't buy you're story that he's a superior combatant.

When he fought the spider the written went with without the wings he was powerless, but a few issues later Hawkgirl was flying without the wings.

Huh?

I must be mistaken again then because I'm talking about the time when he fought the Spider alongside Green Arrow and lost his wings in battle causing him to go into freefall.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
You do know I'm talking about standard gear here and not the full arsenal of resources that both have access to? I'm not about to say that Bruce will pull out his new genesis boom tube glove and use it from his sci-fi closest (btw Bruce has Thanagarian wings) and use it for this fight especially when he don't normally see him do that.

But if I'm understanding you correctly you're saying that Carter carries around tech of this caliber at all times? If this were the case why is it that he hasn't pulled it out against any top tiers when he's fought them? So either Carter doesn't carry around tech like this normally as you may think or he perfers to fight more like a warrior and engage in melee combat like Bruce does when fighting 1 on 1 against skilled opponents.

I know, and generally Hawkman does carry around hus guns he did it all for vol.3, but currently he just uses his mace but he often switches up the weapons he uses as shown in JSA and his main series. The Thanagarian wings are not the best tech from the Thanagarians far from it. Bruce has lost his boom tube device (Hawman has zeta beams anyways). It depends on the writer as even Hawkgirl has carrying around the claw of horus for abit, and carried around her thanagarian gun and her mace.

So it should be specified what time period were using Hawkman at, as he had different standard gears at different times. Currently, he predominetly just uses his mace, bolas and sometimes a shield

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

That's it? Impressive but I'll need more then this especially since I'm leaning more towards endurance showings that show how well he can take punishment.

That's it? your joking right. During the Rann/Thanagar Hawkman was doing things like killing thousands of Gordanians (know them) without breaking a sweat. As noted by Atom, Hawkman "giggles at anything less then third degree burns"

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

So show me some speed feats. If he's really faster then Bruce I'll fairly concede to the fact that he is.

*points to respect thread* It's laid out

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Yet again we've seen Ra's Al Ghul and The Sensei (who's has centuries of combat training and was still outsmarted) get beaten by Bruce. Experience is NOT gonna play a big factor in this battle especially when Bruce is a superior tactican then Carter despite his experience which should tell you that it won't matter.

and I would even argue that Vanadal Savage is a superior fighrer then Ra's (not Sensi), but Sensi gassed out in a minute as before he was completly and utterly destroying bruce. Basically it came down to having durability, which Hawkman has in spades. Experience always plays a factor, in any fight real or fact experience has continually been shown and stated to make a difference

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

When I said how often I should've said how often does he use it in 1 on 1 fights against opponents like Batman for example because he doesn't seem to do it at all judging from the fights I've seen him in. .

He used it against Green Latnern, Deadline, tracking some thugs, used it to boost his speed. Just to note he isn't on the same level of Animal Man, it's on a much smaller scale.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Bruce's deductive reasoning would counter that. As proof of this, we've seen Bruce quickly deduce how Tezumak was actually anticipating Flash's attacks in battle while Flash myself thought it was because Tezumak was just fast enough to do so. There's also Bruce's stealth to consider something that Carter wouldn't have an answer for even with his senses..

haha what? So Bruce is going to use his stealth against someone that can hear for miles and count the flaps of a hummingbird with his detective skills? Come on now. Your example doesn't really counter his senses as they still would be there.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

One showing isn't enough for me. Show me examples where he normally uses this trick in 1 on 1 fights against opponents like Batman.

That's not to say however that I'm totally writting off this tactic but I need examples of him using regularly in 1 on 1 fights.

Haha ok, I merely just listed just one example but he has done it against Shadow Theif, Johnny Quick, Hawkwoman, Thanagarian hawks, uses his wind currents to make a sand screen to cover the area so no one could see him, and in Brave & Bold #44 Hawkwoman and him used wind blasts that were to lift up a huge water spurt and carried to over to put out a forest fire, and in another scene he used his wind attacks to fight thugs and it was said the wind attack was "several hundred miles an hour"etc. He uses his wind attacks quite abit

You sure seem to love to try to discredit Hawkman and ignore all his abilities and feats.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Like who? I'm aware of his showing in JSA but what else?

Johnny Quick, Flash

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Believe it or not I'm actually a Hawkman fan as well (no where near as big as you obviously) but I'm just saying I haven't actually seen him go up against many top tier combatants like Batman has and do well especially when he's lost to Bruce in hth combat.

In otherwords, I need to see examples of how well he does against highly skilled opponents similar to Bruce not top tiers.

Sure doesn't seem it at all especially with some of your comments, and with the Batman incident there was circumstances with it.

Once again respect thread

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

No he wasn't.

However, Arthur does mention that he wasn't fully used to being outside of water since this was back when the JLA was still in its early stages and both Bruce and Arthur were younger. He was definitely at full power but I will say that Arthur has become more powerful since then.

As far as Aquaman one shotting Batman goes, I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen since Arthur is far stronger after all but you should know that Bruce has withstood attacks from much more stronger then Aruthur and gotten quickly back on his feet to fight consistently.

Still, I'd like to know where those 1 shotting encounters happened that you're talking about.

He was, he even said so in his regular series

and here's one instance as it's not posted anywhere else. I will try to upload the other one in the next few days (the other one was underwater so doesn't count I suppose)

1. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/bb82_10.jpg
2. [url]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/bb82_11.jpg/url]

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Actually, DS was back on his feet moments later after being blasted and admitted to Dessad that his omega powers had been restored on top of taking repeated punches from an enraged Superman not to long after Batman's kick. .

He was back on his feet but to say he was at full power is silly considering what Batman did. He even went on to defeat Batman and then Superman speedblized him and ran away in a manner never seen by DS before.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Croc maybe... but Clayface no way.

Considering that Batman actually took a shot to the face from Hawkman's mace and was still able to continue fighting (on top of having just went through a gauntlet of super villains and heroes alongside Superman) I still don't buy you're agruement.

Once again yeah no. Hawkman has shown to toss a spaceship and have destroyed Rann and Thanagar cruisers with one blow. your being a tad silly now

Serious Hawkman knocked out Despero's teeth when he was fighting Superman and Captain Marvel and they didn't do the damage he did.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Vandal is impressive but what martial artists has Carter had good showings against on the same level as Bruce or better? Getting beaten in hth combat by Bruce is what makes me believe Carter isn't as good as you may believe him to be. So unless, you can show me examples of him defeating martial artists like Bruce in hth combat I can't buy you're story that he's a superior combatant.

Well Vanadal Savage has beat Bruce, and another time stalemated him so there's thatOnce again Carter was not fighting seriously or his face would have been caved in similar to what he did to Despero. Isn't as good as I believe him to be? You do know in JSA that routinely state he is one of the best fights on the Earth right? One again that's what the respect thread is for, it doesn't have everything but it's a good outline. He also routinely defeats Hath Set, but they have been very vague just how skilled he is/

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Huh?

I must be mistaken again then because I'm talking about the time when he fought the Spider alongside Green Arrow and lost his wings in battle causing him to go into freefall.

That's what I'm talking about the writer assumed if you took his wings away you take away his powers, which isn't the case.

I know, and generally Hawkman does carry around hus guns he did it all for vol.3, but currently he just uses his mace but he often switches up the weapons he uses as shown in JSA and his main series. The Thanagarian wings are not the best tech from the Thanagarians far from it. Bruce has lost his boom tube device (Hawman has zeta beams anyways). It depends on the writer as even Hawkgirl has carrying around the claw of horus for abit, and carried around her thanagarian gun and her mace.

So it should be specified what time period were using Hawkman at, as he had different standard gears at different times. Currently, he predominetly just uses his mace, bolas and sometimes a shield

I'm refering to what Carter normally carries around with him and what he uses when he fights other combatants 1 on 1. The weaponry you just mentioned is basically what I normally see him use when going up against formidable street level fighters. Which is my point when I say that Bruce has better standard tech/weaponry on him compared to Carter that both would use against one another without going OOC.

That's it? your joking right. During the Rann/Thanagar Hawkman was doing things like killing thousands of Gordanians (know them) without breaking a sweat. As noted by Atom, Hawkman "giggles at anything less then third degree burns"

I want to see how Carter's damage soak compares to Batman's. This is not hardly enough. Considering how Bruce can come out exploding buildings unfazed due to his body armor the remark by Atom doesn't impress me too much.

I'm talking more along the lines of how well he can take a hit more then anything causes thats what really matters in battle.

*points to respect thread* It's laid out

Sure doesn't seem it at all especially with some of your comments, and with the Batman incident there was circumstances with it.

Once again respect thread

Well I could point you to my Batman site (Batman Capability Website) but I'd still like at least 3-5 examples from you so I can fairly compare the two. Otherwise, whats the point of us debating at all or anyone for that matter?

and I would even argue that Vanadal Savage is a superior fighrer then Ra's (not Sensi), but Sensi gassed out in a minute as before he was completly and utterly destroying bruce. Basically it came down to having durability, which Hawkman has in spades. Experience always plays a factor, in any fight real or fact experience has continually been shown and stated to make a difference

The Sensei failed to defeat Bruce in a minute as The Sensei stated that's all he'd need to defeat Bruce and to his surprise Bruce outlasted him despite all the brutal punishment Sensei dished out plus he was still defeated/outsmarted. As you can see, battle savvy combined with damage soak is what allowed Bruce to win that fight. Given Carter's performance against Bruce in hth combat I don't see him doing any better.

Yes, experience does matter but when you're facing someone who's clearly a smarter fighter then you and is more skilled that really doesn't play that big a role. As we've seen Bruce still defeat people with much greater experience then him.

He used it against Green Latnern, Deadline, tracking some thugs, used it to boost his speed. Just to note he isn't on the same level of Animal Man, it's on a much smaller scale.

GL is a top tier and Deadline is just one example. So that's really not enough for me to go on. If he doesn't normally use it in battle it wouldn't play a factor here.

haha what? So Bruce is going to use his stealth against someone that can hear for miles and count the flaps of a hummingbird with his detective skills? Come on now. Your example doesn't really counter his senses as they still would be there.

You're not serious by saying this are you? Are you sure you're familiar with Batman?

You are aware that Batman has managed to sneak up on Superman regularly right? Even disappear out of sight of him when they first met to Clark's own surprise who began questioning how he was able to do so.

As far as his deduction goes, believe it or not its not just for solving crimes (as I just proved to you in the previous example) he's also used it to exploit weaknesses against his opponents, deduce how powers work, and even detect people attempting to use invisibility on him.

Haha ok, I merely just listed just one example but he has done it against Shadow Theif, Johnny Quick, Hawkwoman, Thanagarian hawks, uses his wind currents to make a sand screen to cover the area so no one could see him, and in Brave & Bold #44 Hawkwoman and him used wind blasts that were to lift up a huge water spurt and carried to over to put out a forest fire, and in another scene he used his wind attacks to fight thugs and it was said the wind attack was "several hundred miles an hour"etc. He uses his wind attacks quite abit

That's a little better but I still need more evidence of him regularly doing against fighters like Batman or Deathstroke for example.

We know he's capable of doing this thats not the issue for me. My issue is how often does he use this against street level fighters like Batman and how it made the difference in battle.

You sure seem to love to try to discredit Hawkman and ignore all his abilities and feats.

Quite the opposite I'm trying to understand what abilities he normally uses as oppossed to just looking at his high showings and saying he'd automatically use such a tactic. That would be like me saying that Bruce would use liquid nitrogen to freeze Carter or simply take him out with a kill strike technique. Is he capable of doing such things? Of course. But since we're talking about these two acting in character and fighting as they normally do it doesn't apply.

Johnny Quick, Flash

That's more like it.

We've seen Bruce in turn dodge and take out Kid Flash (Wally) with 1 blow while fighting off the rest of the Teen Titans, catch Impulse who was moving around and talking annoying fast, and react fast enough to launch an attack of sonics against Johnny Quick who was moving fast enough to nullify his sonics.

He was, he even said so in his regular series

If this were he case why he doesn't say anything about it in the issue which tells me the writer intended for there fight to happen that way. Or the writer was unaware of this if what you say is true.

Still, I'd like the issue you're talking about.

and here's one instance as it's not posted anywhere else. I will try to upload the other one in the next few days (the other one was underwater so doesn't count I suppose)

1. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/...es2/bb82_10.jpg
2. [url]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/bb82_11.jpg/url]

No wonder I've never heard of it since it happened pre-crisis. I mostly go by post-crisis showings for DC characters not that I'm writing that off it's just that post-crisis Batman is much more formidable then he ever was in his pre-crisis days. I can easily point out showings that counter that like withstanding an enraged attack from a shapeshifter mimicking the powers of Martian Manhunter and still managing to win.

He was back on his feet but to say he was at full power is silly considering what Batman did. He even went on to defeat Batman and then Superman speedblized him and ran away in a manner never seen by DS before.

Going by what Darkseid himself says to Deesad he clearly was and thats the reason why I said it was stupid how Bruce managed to pull that off. Also, he didn't defeat Batman he took him by surprise and the fact that he was taking super speed attacks from an angry Superman no less after the fact is further evidence to support that he was at full power. If you remember it was Superman who put him into the source wall and thats the reason why he ran off saying he didn't want to go back. So either Batman was made class 100 for 1 panel there or it was a case of inconsistent writing which equals a high showing for Bruce (which it clearly was).

Once again yeah no. Hawkman has shown to toss a spaceship and have destroyed Rann and Thanagar cruisers with one blow. your being a tad silly now

So you're saying Hawkman could physically restrain Wonder Woman with 1 hand, deck Supergirl, and even overpower Power Girl cause thats exactly what Clayface has done. If Hawkman truly is this physically strong then he'd have to be top tier himself which he definitely isn't.

Serious Hawkman knocked out Despero's teeth when he was fighting Superman and Captain Marvel and they didn't do the damage he did.

I'm aware of the Virtue and Vice showing but I hope you're not suggesting that physically Carter is top tier just because he can do that with his mace. I'm talking physical strength here.

Well Vanadal Savage has beat Bruce, and another time stalemated him so there's thatOnce again Carter was not fighting seriously or his face would have been caved in similar to what he did to Despero.

Sorry I don't buy that Carter wasn't fighting seriously when he was definitely attempting to put Bruce down as he even hit Bruce over the head with clock for crying out loud. That doesn't sound like someone who's holding back at all especially against someone who claims to be your friend. Why would he pick up a clock to hit Bruce with anyway if he hits as powerful as you claim? He should've been able to drop Bruce with 1 punch and subdue him that way but he clearly couldn't as he ultimately lost that battle fairly whether you want to admit to it or not. Hawkman using his mace to hurt top tiers and his displays of physical strength/power are clearly two different things for Carter.

Interesting enough in Virtue and Vice we saw Batman and Terrific send Carter (unexpectedly) flying with a combined punch. We've also seen Bruce put Carter down with a punch when Carter got in his face in Crisis of Conscience.

BTW, can you tell the comic where Bruce fights Vandal Savage please?

Isn't as good as I believe him to be? You do know in JSA that routinely state he is one of the best fights on the Earth right? One again that's what the respect thread is for, it doesn't have everything but it's a good outline. He also routinely defeats Hath Set, but they have been very vague just how skilled he is/

I'll believe him to be that good when I see him actually beat or stalemate fighters of high skill caliber like Batman. Him losing to Bruce is what really makes me believe he isn't (at least not in hth combat anyway). With standard gear and nth metal however I definitely see this being true.

That's what I'm talking about the writer assumed if you took his wings away you take away his powers, which isn't the case.

We've established this already. My point of bringing that showing up is that he lost his wings in battle against a skilled archer with no powers as well as against Slade two skilled street level combatants that he's fought. If he were to lose his wings in battle against Batman he'd lose the advantage that Bruce mentions he has over him.

Sorry I'm going to be gone for the next few days as I need to study for finals, I'll be back and reply soon as I can.

Actually I will make a quick post, and this will be it for me for a few days. sorry

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
I'm refering to what Carter normally carries around with him and what he uses when he fights other combatants 1 on 1. The weaponry you just mentioned is basically what I normally see him use when going up against formidable street level fighters. Which is my point when I say that Bruce has better standard tech/weaponry on him compared to Carter that both would use against one another without going OOC.

I know, hence why I said depening on what timeline of Hawkman can vary what he uses. Kator Hol generally always had his thanagarian gun at all times that destroyed atoms and disintegrated anything that was hit. Hawkman in vol.4 used rifles, axes, shields, armor, etc. as his standard equipment for quite some time. It's only pre-crisis Hawkman and current which basically only rely on a mace/hammer.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

I want to see how Carter's damage soak compares to Batman's. This is not hardly enough. Considering how Bruce can come out exploding buildings unfazed due to his body armor the remark by Atom doesn't impress me too much.

I'm talking more along the lines of how well he can take a hit more then anything causes thats what really matters in battle.

*points to respect thread* and so has Hawkman, and with his healing factor in addition to his durability to definetly trumps Batman's durability. For example...

1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/Hawkmanv42808.jpg
2. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/Hawkmanv42809.jpg

Hawkman can takes blows from a pissed off Black Adam, Despero, Gog, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, etc and still be fine. There's no question about it Hawkman's durability far surpasses Batman due to his metahuman physical abilities

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Well I could point you to my Batman site (Batman Capability Website) but I'd still like at least 3-5 examples from you so I can fairly compare the two. Otherwise, whats the point of us debating at all or anyone for that matter?

and I know it, I was even going to make a remasted respect thread for him and on this board I frequently defend Batman in debates. I know him quite well.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

The Sensei failed to defeat Bruce in a minute as The Sensei stated that's all he'd need to defeat Bruce and to his surprise Bruce outlasted him despite all the brutal punishment Sensei dished out plus he was still defeated/outsmarted. As you can see, battle savvy combined with damage soak is what allowed Bruce to win that fight. Given Carter's performance against Bruce in hth combat I don't see him doing any better.

That's due to his damage soak not really his overall skill, and Hawkman has battle savvy and high damage soak so don't get why your making it out to be a great feat as it's not. Batman was getting destroyed. Once again your ignoring the circumstances.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Yes, experience does matter but when you're facing someone who's clearly a smarter fighter then you and is more skilled that really doesn't play that big a role. As we've seen Bruce still defeat people with much greater experience then him.

Incorrect, as Hawkman has shown to call abilities up that he may not generally use such as magic or sword skills when he was traveling around as ronin. You make it sound like Hawkman is not a skilled fighter, when he is always refered to be one of the finest himself.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

GL is a top tier and Deadline is just one example. So that's really not enough for me to go on. If he doesn't normally use it in battle it wouldn't play a factor here.

Good god, you need apparently need like 100 examples to take something serious apparently. Actually vol.3 ie. Kator Hol used it quite frequently as he was trained to use it from a shaman. Your being down right silly now.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

You're not serious by saying this are you? Are you sure you're familiar with Batman?

You are aware that Batman has managed to sneak up on Superman regularly right? Even disappear out of sight of him when they first met to Clark's own surprise who began questioning how he was able to do so.

As far as his deduction goes, believe it or not its not just for solving crimes (as I just proved to you in the previous example) he's also used it to exploit weaknesses against his opponents, deduce how powers work, and even detect people attempting to use invisibility on him.

Most definetly, and quite as I mentioned above. I even still have all the scans of when I was going to make the remastered thread

Because Superman is generally not paying attention (As stated) which he mentions as he is focused on something else. When Superman is expecting Batman he does not evade him, and in this fight Hawkman knows Batman is coming so he is not going to evade anything.

Yes he can use it to point out weakenesses, but that's only going to get you so far one on one and when the person like Hawkman who is battle ready and generally out for blood.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

That's a little better but I still need more evidence of him regularly doing against fighters like Batman or Deathstroke for example.

We know he's capable of doing this thats not the issue for me. My issue is how often does he use this against street level fighters like Batman and how it made the difference in battle.

He far as I know only has fought DS once, and Batman twice so you won't see an example of him using it on them but he has done it on various others and the rules of the board dicatate he can use it here.

He does it more times, in battles and in situations that requires it then your giving him credit 😬

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Quite the opposite I'm trying to understand what abilities he normally uses as oppossed to just looking at his high showings and saying he'd automatically use such a tactic. That would be like me saying that Bruce would use liquid nitrogen to freeze Carter or simply take him out with a kill strike technique. Is he capable of doing such things? Of course. But since we're talking about these two acting in character and fighting as they normally do it doesn't apply.

and I mentioned the ones he does regular use and then you said nope not enough times even though he consistently has used them for years and years. That's the very defintion of low-balling a character. Also Hawkman can survive in space without aid and broken free from Captain Cold's ice gun, that tactic won't work

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

That's more like it.

We've seen Bruce in turn dodge and take out Kid Flash (Wally) with 1 blow while fighting off the rest of the Teen Titans, catch Impulse who was moving around and talking annoying fast, and react fast enough to launch an attack of sonics against Johnny Quick who was moving fast enough to nullify his sonics.

You talking about Teen Titans: Year One? That was when Batman was controlled by that demon and that was Wally when he was completly inexperienced and not battle tested. Not the same at all

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
If this were he case why he doesn't say anything about it in the issue which tells me the writer intended for there fight to happen that way. Or the writer was unaware of this if what you say is true.

Still, I'd like the issue you're talking about.

Because it was a way to portray Batman at the time in a positive light

Im working on a Aquaman respect thread, I'll see if I can scan in next week when my finals are done.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

No wonder I've never heard of it since it happened pre-crisis. I mostly go by post-crisis showings for DC characters not that I'm writing that off it's just that post-crisis Batman is much more formidable then he ever was in his pre-crisis days. I can easily point out showings that counter that like withstanding an enraged attack from a shapeshifter mimicking the powers of Martian Manhunter and still managing to win.

Except that scene was refercened to happening post-crisis too, and the other time I'm talking about was AM one-shotted Batman but like I mentioned earlier that was underwater (so not exactually fair)

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Going by what Darkseid himself says to Deesad he clearly was and thats the reason why I said it was stupid how Bruce managed to pull that off. Also, he didn't defeat Batman he took him by surprise and the fact that he was taking super speed attacks from an angry Superman no less after the fact is further evidence to support that he was at full power. If you remember it was Superman who put him into the source wall and thats the reason why he ran off saying he didn't want to go back. So either Batman was made class 100 for 1 panel there or it was a case of inconsistent writing which equals a high showing for Bruce (which it clearly was).

but what we saw supports he was weakened, as even the barrage of Superman later didn't do what Batman did. Also no it also can be the fact he recovers as DS was adjusting to having his powers back. Simply as that, and yes he ran away in a manner that DS has never done. I know as I have made the DS respect thread.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

So you're saying Hawkman could physically restrain Wonder Woman with 1 hand, deck Supergirl, and even overpower Power Girl cause thats exactly what Clayface has done. If Hawkman truly is this physically strong then he'd have to be top tier himself which he definitely isn't.

I know those incidents and actually yes, as Kator did restrain Wonder Woman and decked Supergirl too (Hawkman v.3 era). HW far as I know hasn't dealt with Powergirl (but it's possible as they were on 3 teams together), but he still has restrained and flat out beat Aquaman when during the pre-crisis era and part of post he was mostly just a human that could breath underwater.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

I'm aware of the Virtue and Vice showing but I hope you're not suggesting that physically Carter is top tier just because he can do that with his mace. I'm talking physical strength here.

He's not top tier, but he's still super strong. As I mentioned even his punches have hurt WOnder Woman (JLA Classified #48).

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
Sorry I don't buy that Carter wasn't fighting seriously when he was definitely attempting to put Bruce down as he even hit Bruce over the head with clock for crying out loud. That doesn't sound like someone who's holding back at all especially against someone who claims to be your friend. Why would he pick up a clock to hit Bruce with anyway if he hits as powerful as you claim? He should've been able to drop Bruce with 1 punch and subdue him that way but he clearly couldn't as he ultimately lost that battle fairly whether you want to admit to it or not. Hawkman using his mace to hurt top tiers and his displays of physical strength/power are clearly two different things for Carter.

Interesting enough in Virtue and Vice we saw Batman and Terrific send Carter (unexpectedly) flying with a combined punch. We've also seen Bruce put Carter down with a punch when Carter got in his face in Crisis of Conscience.

BTW, can you tell the comic where Bruce fights Vandal Savage please?

Of course you don't, as you really don't like practically anything Hawkman has done. Yeah a clock is a far cry from punches that have hurt Martian Manhunter, Grundy, etc. Once again the writer believed Hawkman to be powerless without his wings, and we even saw just before he had enough strength to hold Aquaman who in the same ark was going toe to toe with Despero. If you honestly believe he was going all out when he was even trying to tell Bruce to snap out of it is silly.

You mean the time he quickly got up from and told Bruce he was going to give him 10 minutes he would never forgot. Also meh! just before HW nearly had his arm cut off and was healing and it was a sucker punch...wow. Seriously how are you not low-balling Hawkman again?

I'll try to track it down, it was a Brave and Bold issue where they stalemated, and a JSA where Vandal beat him.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

I'll believe him to be that good when I see him actually beat or stalemate fighters of high skill caliber like Batman. Him losing to Bruce is what really makes me believe he isn't (at least not in hth combat anyway). With standard gear and nth metal however I definitely see this being true.

That's because he is one of the good guys and won't fight Batman especially when he isn't on the team. Does that mean he isn't skilled? No far from it, do I think Batman is more skilled? Definetly, but that's merely one aspect of many that can dictate the fight and Hawkman has way more advantages over Batman, then Batman has over him. That's a fact.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

We've established this already. My point of bringing that showing up is that he lost his wings in battle against a skilled archer with no powers as well as against Slade two skilled street level combatants that he's fought. If he were to lose his wings in battle against Batman he'd lose the advantage that Bruce mentions he has over him.

Except for as noted he wouldn't actually lose his abilities as noted in the comics. Even Hawkgirl showed without her wings or nth metal she still had physical abilities due to being overexposed to the nth metal. Rules of the board do not follow your thinking.

Actually that's my last post here, you can reply but that's it for me. You are consistently low-balling Hawkman and I don't see you changing. I'll leave it at that.

Hawkman is the biggest threat here being the most powerful/versatile