Wolverine, Batman vs Black Panther, Hawkman..

I know, hence why I said depening on what timeline of Hawkman can vary what he uses. Kator Hol generally always had his thanagarian gun at all times that destroyed atoms and disintegrated anything that was hit. Hawkman in vol.4 used rifles, axes, shields, armor, etc. as his standard equipment for quite some time. It's only pre-crisis Hawkman and current which basically only rely on a mace/hammer.

I agree with this.

*points to respect thread* and so has Hawkman, and with his healing factor in addition to his durability to definetly trumps Batman's durability. For example...

1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/...wkmanv42808.jpg
2. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/...wkmanv42809.jpg

Hawkman can takes blows from a pissed off Black Adam, Despero, Gog, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, etc and still be fine. There's no question about it Hawkman's durability far surpasses Batman due to his metahuman physical abilities

In the same token we've seen Bruce withstand attacks from Mongul, Grundy, The General, and even Superman (who tried to kill him twice no less) and still get back on his feet moments later to continue fighting. I will say if Carter does have an edge in durability its due to his healing factor as I said before. Nothing I've seen him from suggests he's far superior like you say.

That's due to his damage soak not really his overall skill, and Hawkman has battle savvy and high damage soak so don't get why your making it out to be a great feat as it's not. Batman was getting destroyed. Once again your ignoring the circumstances.

Huh?

I never said Batman beat The Sensei due to his skill I said it was due to his battle savvy (wits) combined with damage soak. All I'm saying is that I don't see Carter don't any better then Bruce in hth combat against The Sensei given that he doesn't have that many good straight hth showings and lost to Bruce.

Incorrect, as Hawkman has shown to call abilities up that he may not generally use such as magic or sword skills when he was traveling around as ronin. You make it sound like Hawkman is not a skilled fighter, when he is always refered to be one of the finest himself.

I disagree.

There's a reason why everyone in the DCU go to Batman for battle plans over Carter even with his experience. It's because he normally is the guy who comes up with the winning battle plan and its why Superman is so annoyed with him always being right.

And I'm not saying that Carter isn't highly skilled. I'm saying he's not as skilled as Batman nor as smart a combatant.

Good god, you need apparently need like 100 examples to take something serious apparently. Actually vol.3 ie. Kator Hol used it quite frequently as he was trained to use it from a shaman. Your being down right silly now.

I'm looking for consistent showings but I'd say 3 is enough actually. Deadline is only 1 example which isn't enough.

Because Superman is generally not paying attention (As stated) which he mentions as he is focused on something else. When Superman is expecting Batman he does not evade him, and in this fight Hawkman knows Batman is coming so he is not going to evade anything.

Actually, when Superman first met Batman he came to arrest him and attempted to take him in by surprise with Batman disappearing straight out of Superman's sight then appeared right behind him to his surprise. This is the reason why Clark questioned whether or not he was metahuman with Bruce responding that he merely used the environment around him to get around his senses.

This is including the time when he hid in the Watchtower for an hour and Superman mentions that he couldnt hear his heart beat all that time (Bruce mentions using a gadget here) or when Bruce sneaks into a military base and Superman & Martain Manhunter couldn't even see/detect him to Clark's amazement.

It doesn't matter if Hawkman knows if Bruce is coming or not since he still won't be able to detect him once he employs stealth.

Yes he can use it to point out weakenesses, but that's only going to get you so far one on one and when the person like Hawkman who is battle ready and generally out for blood.

Being that Bruce can use deduction to point out weaknesses and deduce exactly how Carter's powers work (although he already does since he's come up with plans on to how defeat almost all the heroes in the DCU just in case they go rogue) combined with his superior battle savvy I can't see how Hawkman wouldn't struggle a lot against Bruce.

He far as I know only has fought DS once, and Batman twice so you won't see an example of him using it on them but he has done it on various others and the rules of the board dicatate he can use it here.

He does it more times, in battles and in situations that requires it then your giving him credit

and I mentioned the ones he does regular use and then you said nope not enough times even though he consistently has used them for years and years. That's the very defintion of low-balling a character. Also Hawkman can survive in space without aid and broken free from Captain Cold's ice gun, that tactic won't work

The only problem I have with this tactic is that we don't regular see him use it against other streets in 1 on 1 fights as he typically perfers to battle things out straight up from what I've seen of him. That's what I'm talking about.

You talking about Teen Titans: Year One? That was when Batman was controlled by that demon and that was Wally when he was completly inexperienced and not battle tested. Not the same at all

You're leaving out the fact that the Titans had just captured a mind controlled Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash, and Green Arrow only in teams of 2 or 3 for each leaguer. They took on Batman all at the sametime (minus Robin) and couldn't stop him or so much as land a hit on him. The fact that Bruce manages to dodge then catch and drop Wally with 1 blow without looking no less while busy taking down the rest of the Titans is damn impressive speed.

Because it was a way to portray Batman at the time in a positive light

Im working on a Aquaman respect thread, I'll see if I can scan in next week when my finals are done.

Of course it is and that's why I consider it a high showing and not an average portrayal for Bruce but it doesn't change the fact that it happened.

Except that scene was refercened to happening post-crisis too, and the other time I'm talking about was AM one-shotted Batman but like I mentioned earlier that was underwater (so not exactually fair)

Yes but you have to understand that Pre-Crisis Batman and Post-Crisis Batman are portrayed differently. Post-Crisis Batman is written much more impressively then he was in his PC days and thats why I typically go by how Bruce is now portrayed as oppossed to PC showings although I'm not saying its not cannon.

Ironically, I just looked up another PC brave and the bold comic where they teamed up and later fought and this is what happened:

The fact that Bruce is able to withstand a punch from an angry Aquaman and then bring Arthur to his knees with a human crippling punch is enough reason for me to believe why the writer wrote their fight the way he did. Although I still consider it a high showing including this battle.

And the other time you mentioned where Aquaman one shotted Batman underwater, what actually happened was that Arthur cut off Bruce's oxygen supply underwater just enough so Arthur could subdue him. Not really a fight there or anything worth noting.

but what we saw supports he was weakened, as even the barrage of Superman later didn't do what Batman did. Also no it also can be the fact he recovers as DS was adjusting to having his powers back. Simply as that, and yes he ran away in a manner that DS has never done. I know as I have made the DS respect thread.

That's the reason why I said its an example of inconsistent writing nothing more which is why it doesn't make sense.

I know those incidents and actually yes, as Kator did restrain Wonder Woman and decked Supergirl too (Hawkman v.3 era). HW far as I know hasn't dealt with Powergirl (but it's possible as they were on 3 teams together), but he still has restrained and flat out beat Aquaman when during the pre-crisis era and part of post he was mostly just a human that could breath underwater.

I'll have to look up those issues but Clayface restraining Diana with merely 1 hand while smiling about it no less pretty much tells me he's definitely far stronger Carter. I'm not sure about which Supergirl you're talking about but I'm refering to the current Supergirl who's on the same level as Superman not Linda Danvers. Clayface was also easily overpowering and restraining Power Girl in the example I was talking about too. This is not something I can see Carter even come close to doing in physical strength as he would have to be top tier in order to do so.

He's not top tier, but he's still super strong. As I mentioned even his punches have hurt WOnder Woman (JLA Classified #48).

In turn we've seen that Batman has gotten the upperhand on a demon possessed Wonder Woman in hth combat and managed to hurt her in a sparring contest back when she was blind.

Of course you don't, as you really don't like practically anything Hawkman has done.Yeah a clock is a far cry from punches that have hurt Martian Manhunter, Grundy, etc. Once again the writer believed Hawkman to be powerless without his wings, and we even saw just before he had enough strength to hold Aquaman who in the same ark was going toe to toe with Despero. If you honestly believe he was going all out when he was even trying to tell Bruce to snap out of it is silly.

That's because he is one of the good guys and won't fight Batman especially when he isn't on the team. Does that mean he isn't skilled? No far from it, do I think Batman is more skilled? Definetly, but that's merely one aspect of many that can dictate the fight and Hawkman has way more advantages over Batman, then Batman has over him. That's a fact.

So you're telling me that Hawkman a guy who has centuries of combat experience choose to use a clock to aid in his attempt to subdue Bruce instead of simply using on his natural skill to put him down? What happened to all the combat experience and skill? Why would he use a clock at all when Bruce was unarmed while fighting him? Sorry but that doesn't sound like someone holding back as you say or someone being as friendly about things at all.

Also, I'm not saying this is how a fight between the two would go normally (if this what you're thinking) as it wouldn't and hasn't as shown in their brief exchange in Superman Batman. I'm saying when it comes to pure skill in hth combat Bruce is clearly superior according to this battle.

You mean the time he quickly got up from and told Bruce he was going to give him 10 minutes he would never forgot. Also meh! just before HW nearly had his arm cut off and was healing and it was a sucker punch...wow. Seriously how are you not low-balling Hawkman again?

You missed the point.

I mentioned this encounter because it showed Bruce clearly knocking down Carter with a punch despite Carter's durability and even made Carter draw blood. This is an example of Carter going against street level characters and closer to what I'm looking for.

Except for as noted he wouldn't actually lose his abilities as noted in the comics. Even Hawkgirl showed without her wings or nth metal she still had physical abilities due to being overexposed to the nth metal. Rules of the board do not follow your thinking.

You missed my point again.

Carter lost his wings in battle against The Spider and Bruce mentioned in Superman Batman that it was the advantage Carter had over him and he said nothing about his other abilities just flight that really give him the advantage in battle. What I'm saying is that if Bruce can make this a 1 on 1 melee fight then they would then be fighting more on his terms making this an even closer fight.

Actually that's my last post here, you can reply but that's it for me. You are consistently low-balling Hawkman and I don't see you changing. I'll leave it at that.

This is funny considering the fact that I can see a straight up battle between Bruce and Carter going either way (hell I didn't even mention my official stance on the actual battle as I didn't care). The only reason why I even got into this debate was because you said that Bruce mentioned that he wouldn't beat Hawkman when his showings say otherwise.

Still, it was nice debating with you anyway despite our disagreement. BTW, can you PM me those Vandal Savage issue numbers sometime?