Darkseid vs. Thor (Stipulations)

Originally posted by Allankles
The lasso of truth? I don't see how you conclude that it stops the ALE. It immobilized the body briefly (3 billion + DS), not the concept. The speedforce doesn't either, I think this is a case of interpreatation. God's agent, Spectre was affected by the ALE through a special medium.

And this: "being crazy makes you immune to the ALE" talk, I feel is being taken out of context. It's already been stated that only a select few people in creation can resist the ALE, (known: Nix Uotan, Miracle, Metron through the LE) so I hardly think it comes down to simply being crazy.

As far as trapping Thor goes he controls the fundamental forces of restriction, (the life trap). So he can definitely do that, in his pre FC form.

I'm not taking anything out of context. It's stated outright within the pages of Final Crisis. Only select KMC posters equivocating over a plain and clear statement from a reliable source argue that only Nix, Highfather and Metron were immune. The scan speaks for itself: http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/FC5p24.jpg

And your opinion would be well-served by posting examples of pre-FC Darkseid using the Life Trap on opponents comparable to Blood and Thunder Thor.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It overrode the ALE's effects. Whether it did so by affecting Darkseid's body is a case of semantics. Barry Allen kissed Iris Allen and dispelled the ALE's effects completely. The only plausible explanation is the Speed Force... that or the power of true love. Ha. No, seriously, Speed Force. Spectre was enslaved by the Spear of Destiny and spoke the ALE, the ALE didn't enslave him. While your interpretation is arguable, the fact that the ALE couldn't affect those protected by Radiant suggests that agents of God do not succumb to Anti-Life.

I'm not taking anything out of context. It's stated outright within the pages of Final Crisis. Only select KMC posters equivocating over a plain and clear statement from a reliable source argue that only Nix, Highfather and Metron were immune. The scan speaks for itself: http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/FC5p24.jpg

It's not semantics, when the Lasso's power is to immobilize those bound by it. So no, it's not semantics, the ALE is a mathematical equation it's not restricted by the lasso, rather it's the bodies it inhabits that are affected.

Barry kissed his wife, and she was cured that doesn't have anything to do with the speed force. The speed force doesn't cure spiritual and mental enslavement. Think about it, none of that had to do with the speed force.

Radiant didn't protect anyone from the ALE with some anti-ALE power. She teleported Montoya when the ALE was going to affect her, and Radiant says categorically that she and Spectre have no power over the ALE.

Yes I just read the scan before posting my previous rebuttal. It didn't affect those "wired differently", that doesn't translate to: "every crazy person is immune to the ALE."

The only people known to be immune as I have stated accurately, are Miracle, Uotan and Metron through the LE. It was stated in two comics related to the ALE that only a select few in creation are immune to it's effects.

None of this means being crazy automatically grants you immunity, such conclusions aren't supported anywhere.

Yes I just read the scan before posting my previous rebuttal. It didn't affect those "wired differently", that doesn't translate to: "every crazy person is immune to the ALE."

It essentially does say that, though. The scan says, "This is where they bring all the people Anti-Life can't affect: the crazy people, the ones wired up different...." How does that translate to "only a handful of people are immune to the ALE?" That contradicts what the scan says.

Just my $.02, though.

Originally posted by Allankles
It's not semantics, when the Lasso's power is to immobilize those bound by it. So no, it's not semantics, the ALE is a mathematical equation it's not restricted by the lasso, rather it's the bodies it inhabits that are affected.

Barry kissed his wife, and she was cured that doesn't have anything to do with the speed force. The speed force doesn't cure spiritual and mental enslavement. Think about it, none of that had to do with the speed force.

Oh I see. So it's your opinion that the power of love cured Iris Allen of Anti-Life. 😐

Originally posted by Allankles
Radiant didn't protect anyone from the ALE with some anti-ALE power. She teleported Montoya when the ALE was going to affect her, and Radiant says categorically that she and Spectre have no power over the ALE.

Yes I just read the scan before posting my previous rebuttal. It didn't affect those "wired differently", that doesn't translate to: "every crazy person is immune to the ALE."

No. Read it again. Highfather states, "This is where they bring all the people Anti-Life can't affect: the crazy people, the ones wired up different... before they dissect 'em..." By the plain reading of that simple statement, Anti-Life doesn't affect the crazy people, nor does it affect the ones wired up different:

You also continue to ignore that (i) Mokkari didn't treat the three as isolated cases and (ii) that the prison itself is littered with bloodstains from multiple victims that inhabited the prison beforehand who were previously dissected. The same people that Highfather was eluding to.

Originally posted by Allankles
The only people known to be immune as I have stated accurately, are Miracle, Uotan and Metron through the LE. It was stated in two comics related to the ALE that only a select few in creation are immune to it's effects. None of this means being crazy automatically grants you immunity, such conclusions aren't supported anywhere.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You could argue that the Spectreforce purges a body of the Anti-Life and doesn't negate it directly like the Life Equation would. Again, semantics. Wonder Woman's lasso dispelled Anti-Life. That's really all there is.

Oh I see. So it's your opinion that the power of love cured Iris Allen of Anti-Life. 😐Radiant protected everyone in the church, Montoya and Huntress when Cain ordered Spectre to spread Anti-Life across the world at the end of Final Crisis: Revelations #4. Despite the entire equation being spoken and heard, they were left unaffected because of Radiant's forcefield. Radiant and Spectre may not have had the power to reverse the ALE when Cain held the Spear of Destiny, but it's clear that Radiant was able to protect certain people from infection and it's utterly obvious that Spectre himself reversed the wide-spread effects of the ALE he himself had wrought once the Spear of Destiny was recovered. You cannot deny that this happened on-panel.

No. Read it again. Highfather states, "This is where they bring all the people Anti-Life can't affect: the crazy people, the ones wired up different... before they dissect 'em..." By the plain reading of that simple statement, Anti-Life doesn't affect the crazy people, nor does it affect the ones wired up different:

You also continue to ignore that (i) Mokkari didn't treat the three as isolated cases and (ii) that the prison itself is littered with bloodstains from multiple victims that inhabited the prison beforehand who were previously dissected. The same people that Highfather was eluding to.Except Highfather states that Anti-Life doesn't affect crazy people and people who are wired differently. Deal with Final Crisis itself. Don't engage in side-tracking the argument by citing other sources when the plain presentation of the actual comic suggests a result that differs from your opinion and Final Crisis itself serves to upend ALL prior preconceptions from previous stories.

Yes I'm dealing with Final crisis. In Final Crisis secret files, Morrison states only a few living beings are immune to the Anti-life equation. The same Morrison in the same continuity again alludes to the idea that only a selct few people in creation are immune to the ALE, Mister Miracle # 3.

So yes, it's stated several times by Morrison that only a few people in creation are immune to it's effects. The scan shows a total of 3 known people being immune, in the case of Metron we know he possesses knowledge of the LE, the other character (possibly Highfather) is an unknown at this point.

Further, I never said these were the only people immune, but rather the only known people immune (Uotan, Miracle and Metron with the LE). The other characters could be anyone, we know DS' minions were capturing people from the future as well. So it's all rather too inconclusive to use as evidence of: every crazy person, that's not how the statement reads.

As far as the rest, I adressed them in the previous post. Lasso's don't affect the ALE, nor does the speed force, by virtue of their limited functions.

Guys, Darkseid doesn't know the full Anti-Life Equation in this thread...

Originally posted by Harbinger
Yes I just read the scan before posting my previous rebuttal. It didn't affect those "wired differently", that doesn't translate to: "every crazy person is immune to the ALE."

It essentially does say that, though. The scan says, "This is where they bring all the people Anti-Life can't affect: the crazy people, the ones wired up different...." How does that translate to "only a handful of people are immune to the ALE?" That contradicts what the scan says.

Just my $.02, though.

Yes this is what it says but "crazy" is subjective. None of those guys (Uotan, Metron and the unknown) seemed mentally insane.

It's way to inconclusive, especially when the same author has stated that only a few special people are immune to the ALE. Metron even asks Uotan, immediately after that statement: "so what so special about you?"

Originally posted by Enyalus
Guys, Darkseid doesn't know the full Anti-Life Equation in this thread...

Basically it functions like in DOTNG? Where he was able to command people to do what he wanted?

Originally posted by Allankles
Yes I'm dealing with Final crisis. In Final Crisis secret files, Morrison states only a few living beings are immune to the Anti-life equation. The same Morrison in the same continuity again alludes to the idea that only a selct few people in creation are immune to the ALE, Mister Miracle # 3.

Originally posted by Allankles
So yes, it's stated several times by Morrison that only a few people in creation are immune to it's effects. The scan shows a total of 3 known people being immune, in the case of Metron we know he possesses knowledge of the LE, the other character (possibly Highfather) is an unknown at this point.

Further, I never said these were the only people immune, but rather the only known people immune (Uotan, Miracle and Metron with the LE). The other characters could be anyone, we know DS' minions were capturing people from the future as well. So it's all rather too inconclusive to use as evidence of: every crazy person, that's not how the statement reads.

Originally posted by Allankles
As far as the rest, I adressed them in the previous post. Lasso's don't affect the ALE, nor does the speed force, by virtue of their limited functions.

Originally posted by Allankles
Yes this is what it says but "crazy" is subjective. None of those guys (Uotan, Metron and the unknown) seemed mentally insane.

Originally posted by Allankles
Basically it functions like in DOTNG? Where he was able to command people to do what he wanted?

I thought in DOTNG he said he's always had part of the ALE. Even as far back as NG v2 IIRC.

?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
"crazy people wired differently. "

You have the gall to try to use that? 👇 That is a worthless assertation considering the 'crazy' people were Nix Uotan, Metron, and possibly Highfather. So that's a completely false example.

2nd, the ALE is completely unlike the soul and mind gems.

3rd, neither of them was trying to kill him or thought of trying to get the gem away. Or possibly they lacked the abilities. Darkseid does not.

Thor stomps.

Meh, screw the ALE. DS does not need it to win. Omega Sanction sends his ass to hell.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Meh, screw the ALE. DS does not need it to win. Omega Sanction sends his ass to hell.

Nothing can block the OE
The OE can pass through anything, go through any dimension or barrier

Thor gets stomped here, heck DS wouldnt need to OE to take him down

Originally posted by Xzpunisher
Nothing can block the OE
The OE can pass through anything, go through any dimension or barrier

Thor gets stomped here, heck DS wouldnt need to OE to take him down

WW bracelets were made by the Aeigis, and DS has flat out overpowered Supes HV before

OE can go intangible as well, passing right through MJONIR and hitting Thor directly

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thor can block it with his hammer and send it back Darkseid's way.

Thor can block a light speed attack that Darkseid can control at will and is fast enough to give Superman troubles?

As for Wondy's shield, her blocking it is a non-issue. The reason DS did not stop it from hitting him was because they were at point-blank range and he did not have time to react. The beams were also fast enough to catch him off-guard.

Also, he can fire it across space/time. So NO, Thor cannot block it.

^ Thor's blocked light speed attacks before. Lots.

I agree with this as Wonder Woman basically came out of nowhere.

But other people have blocked it, like Wonder Woman did with her bracelets.

Darkseid.

Originally posted by Xzpunisher
Nothing can block the OE
The OE can pass through anything, go through any dimension or barrier

Thor gets stomped here, heck DS wouldnt need to OE to take him down

Originally posted by Xzpunisher
WW bracelets were made by the Aeigis, and DS has flat out overpowered Supes HV before

OE can go intangible as well, passing right through MJONIR and hitting Thor directly

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Thor can block a light speed attack that Darkseid can control at will and is fast enough to give Superman troubles?

As for Wondy's shield, her blocking it is a non-issue. The reason DS did not stop it from hitting him was because they were at point-blank range and he did not have time to react. The beams were also fast enough to catch him off-guard.

Also, he can fire it across space/time. So [b]NO, Thor cannot block it. [/B]