Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Janus Marius, I thought Luke was the greatest lightsaber artist.
Luke "was the greatest lightsaber artist" of his time; there is no quote or citation in canon that I'm aware of that states he is the most skilled duelist, greatest Jedi, or most powerful Force user ever.
Meanwhile (ignoring the Revenge of the Sith statement), the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook states that Yoda is the greatest swordsmen of his time; the point Janus was trying to make is that Yoda -- for all his lack of grace and small stature -- is an extremely accomplished swordsman.
Wouldn't it be hard for Yoda to master Djem So? Djem So is designed for physical strength and lets be real here, Yoda is a midget and wouldn't be able to win a physical bout. Ataru suited him best.
I'd imagine, given how Windu refers to "the limitations imposed by [Yoda's] stature and age" that Yoda would be unable to utilize Djem So properly. But that doesn't mean he doesn't understand the mechanics of the form as well as anyone else.
But was bested by Shaak Ti in saber combat, who is no where near as good as Yoda.
Prove it. Shaak Ti had 10+ years after Yoda's last showing to catch up, and was an already fantastic bladebeast. And she didn't best him, she had to commit suicide just to hit him, to bad he blocked her saber with the force at the last second.
I believe Yoda mastered all forms, and is one of the greatest Aturo practitioners.
True, but that doesn't put him above Marek.
Galen, more less won a force contest. It was not strict lightsaber combat.
Actually Marek did beat Vader in sabers, scoring multiple hits and dominating him when he got serious. Then he beat his ass in force.
Vader being 80% the power of Palpatine has nothing to do with skill
Yeah, but as POD tells us, force power is the real clincher in lightsaber fights.
And I believe Marek references Vaders skill as almost flawless.
Not in an all out setting, no. But if this were a strict lightsaber contest, i don't see Galen giving him too much trouble.
Look harder.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Prove it. Shaak Ti had 10+ years after Yoda's last showing to catch up, and was an already fantastic bladebeast. And she didn't best him, she had to commit suicide just to hit him, to bad he blocked her saber with the force at the last second.
She got her ass beat by Grievous. You say her skill with a saber increased? You prove it. Yeah her mastery in the force increased.
True, but that doesn't put him above Marek.
It proves he has more going for him.
Actually Marek did beat Vader in sabers, scoring multiple hits and dominating him when he got serious.[b] Then he beat his ass in force.I'll get back to you on this one. My brother has my book.
But i do remember Vader putting up a good fight. And i do remember their fight was more all-out than pure sabers. They used the force against each other through out their entire duel.
Yeah, but as POD tells us, force power is the real clincher in lightsaber fights.It can be, but not always. Grievous was not force sensitive, but owned just about every jedi he faced, and even beat Ventress.
And I believe Marek references Vaders skill as almost flawless.Was Vader a skilled duelist? Very. As skillful as Yoda? Nope. As fast as Yoda? Not even close.
Look harder. [/B]Don't need to.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
I like Yoda, but he's never actually 'won' a single duel that we've seen.Dooku- escaped both times.
Sidious- draw.
Galen has won at least 7 duels-
Rahm Kota.
Kazdan Paratus
Shaak Ti
Maris Brood
Darth Vader
2 Shadow Guards (maybe more)To say nothing of his numerous training sessions with PROXY.
Even Yoda isn't beating him effortlessly.
dude no one said effotlessly. but Yoda will beat him. unless he gets more training. I am willing to bet that he would fare much better if he hadn't died, so he could train more.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Prove it. Shaak Ti had 10+ years after Yoda's last showing to catch up, and was an already fantastic bladebeast.
She was regarded by several sources as an excellent duelist. But to compare to Yoda? That's an unbelievable exaggeration. She, as Sixty-six pointed out, lost to General Grievous, who (for all of his skills) could only make Dooku struggle occasionally: the same Dooku who was hopelessly outmatched by Yoda on a world steeped in the dark side.
There is a severe gap between Yoda and Ti in any context.
And she didn't best him, she had to commit suicide just to hit him, to bad he blocked her saber with the force at the last second.
I know you've read the novelization, Exodus, and the novelization makes it explicitly clear that Marek was no match for Ti in a strict lightsaber fight; it was only his command of the Force that enabled him to survive.
Originally posted by Gideon
Dislike it though you may, it's what happened.
No, it's not. Not in that sense, anyways.
Yes, Yoda seems to have the edge. His "green [blade] burns hotter" even during the fight in Dark Rendezvous, which seems to support that Yoda is fighting either with more fury, or more skill, it's not clear.
However, I'd argue that "hopelessly outmatched" is a huge stretch. For one, Stewart describes Dooku pretty much countering every move of Yoda's, which implies he's able to keep from being ruthlessly dominated in the saber match. Yoda is literally breathing hard during a blade lock, showing that the old Jedi grows very tired when fighting Dooku, the second such example of the fighter winding Yoda in lightsaber combat.
[...]Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible- wickedness cut in a red light.[...]
This is an important qualifier for two reasons:
Firstly, it notes the conditional of his relation to Mace Windu, and adds a 'but', meaning that on Vjun, Dooku's operating on a higher level of proficiency than normal. This implies that when able to use the dark side to his advantage, he's able to increase his power enough to "counter Yoda's every move" and put up one hell of a fight with someone who is explicitly described as the greatest lightsaber duelist this era.
Secondly, it means Yoda and Dooku are not equals. While this seems to support your point, the key factor here is that it doesn't ever state how far apart Yoda and Mace are, nor does it ever imply anywhere throughout the book that Dooku is "hopelessly outmatched" by virtue of Yoda's superior fighting skills.
Here's something else to consider:
Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vyun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.
This followed with Dooku's coaxing of Yoda to embrace the Dark Side seem to indicate that perhaps Yoda's not only fighting Dooku, he's fighting his own demons during this fight. Instead of Yoda being "awesome" or "amazing" or any other dozen descriptive terms which can be neutral or good, "terrible" is used, something to imply that which is bad. What does this mean? Is it that Yoda's connection to the Force is both enhanced and perhaps challenged by the darkness of the planet? I don't know. But it's the closest thing to a clear statement supporting your argument, and it's not reading "hopelessly outmatched", that's for sure.
The next passage describes how close their attacks where to each other - Dooku's slice comes so close Yoda can feel the heat of the lightsaber "centimeters from his tunic", and then Dooku parries an attack aimed at his back at the "last moment", and then brings his own blade across where Yoda was "seconds earlier". These two are clearly fighting at a breakneck speed and while Dooku is giving ground, I'd like to point out further that this is characteristic of his saber style and completely in-line with Yoda's own style.
Yoda is 100% aggressive with Ataru, and Dooku's style deliberately works to tire out an opponent and create openings to disable or kill them. There's nothing inherently unusual about Dooku giving ground. So this puts doubt into the latter half of that above passage into implying that Dooku is "hopelessly outmatched".
So again, I'm not saying Dooku > Yoda, or even Dooku = Yoda even on Vjun; what I'm saying simply is that your hyperbole is misleading and unsupported. While Yoda was winning, Dooku was not so far beneath him that he was "hopelessly outmatched".
That was surprisingly candid and agreeable.
The problem, Janus, is the passage also makes note of several particular events that make it abundantly clear that Dooku is no match for Yoda; not even on a world that enhances his dark side powers to an uncanny degree.
I do not have my copy of Dark Rendezvous on hand, so if I make a mistake, you'll have to correct me.
1. When Dooku initiates the duel, he hurls a woman out of a window. Yoda "bounds" to the window sill and uses the Force to dampen her velocity to "spill her" to the cobblestones (if memory serves). Simultaneously, Dooku is launching into an attack. While it's a clever tactic, it suggests that Dooku is unwilling to even start the duel on even terms; despite the fact that he is the beneficiary of a dark side nexus, he still has reservations about dueling Yoda on even footing.
2. The passage makes reference to Dooku "sweating" profusely, which is a telltale sign of strain, fatigue, and effort, given the fact that Makashi is lauded to be an unimaginably efficient form. Given how easily Dooku is able to replenish himself with the Force in Revenge of the Sith, it speaks a lot: he was overmatched. And this, once again, on a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force, from which he enjoys a considerable advantage.
3. Dooku not only retreats, but it's revealed he put a missile in high orbit because he knew, despite the metaphysical advantages afforded to by Vjun, despite the practical advantages afforded by the fact that he is in the middle of a Confederacy stronghold, "there was always a chance you could overpower me, of course." He acknowledges defeat even with all of these advantages.
Dooku had monumental advantages and was still outclassed.
While it's a clever tactic, it suggests that Dooku is unwilling to even start the duel on even terms; despite the fact that he is the beneficiary of a dark side nexus, he still has reservations about dueling Yoda on even footing.
Wanting to put the battle in your favor is not a sign of being inferior, but a sign of playing unfair. Sith tend to do this.
Yoda even notes afterwards that Dooku "could have killed him", but did not. So perhaps Dooku's showing some restraint even then. Dooku's just as conflicted as Yoda is during this fight.
The passage makes reference to Dooku "sweating" profusely, which is a telltale sign of strain, fatigue, and effort, given the fact that Makashi is lauded to be an unimaginably efficient form. Given how easily Dooku is able to replenish himself with the Force in Revenge of the Sith, it speaks a lot: he was overmatched. And this, once again, on a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force, from which he enjoys a considerable advantage.
Dooku's sweating from the battle with Yoda, but he's not laboring for breath like Yoda is, for sure. Also, in the same sentence, he's described as "counter Yoda's every move", which means that even if he's sweating (Which is a normal thing to do during a furious battle with the greatest lightsaber user evar) he's still able to keep up. At no point is Dooku shown to be on the verge of collapse during the battle that I could see.
Dooku not only retreats, but it's revealed he put a missile in high orbit because he knew, despite the metaphysical advantages afforded to by Vjun, despite the practical advantages afforded by the fact that he is in the middle of a Confederacy stronghold, "there was always a chance you could overpower me, of course." He acknowledges defeat even with all of these advantages.
Dooku set up this entire scheme, knowing that he could lose to Yoda. Anything is possible, and while he's arguably one of the most proficient saber users in the era besides Yoda, he's never beaten him in anything before. Even push-feather, though to be fair they only played that when Dooku was small.
If I were about to battle someone of equal or better skill than myself, you had better imagine that I would have a Plan B. Dooku's not all about balls and glory, like Skywalker.
Additionally, Obi-Wan and Anakin's close proximity probably helped solidify his choice. It's also important to note that Dooku positions himself on the windowsill while telling Yoda about the missile, implying that he still was able to pace the fight well enough to not get backed into a corner or some other place undesirable. Even if Dooku did destroy Yoda through luck, having Anakin or Obi-Wan show up beforehand is an ugly possibility considering they were just casually going through waves of battle droids.
Yea a lot of you guys remind me of the Vampires in a series im currently reading because you seem to argue(debate) just because you can, but for no real reason.
The Necroscope is the series im referring to and you should check it out if you like reading about talented people and Vampires, its a horror series.