zoom vs silver surfer

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
nahuh

Here is you agreeing with me.

Now quote me agreeing with you. crackers

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Regarding the conversation between Enyalus and Leonidas. From what I've read, it seemed that Wally had, used up Jay's and Bart's speed. That seems to be made pretty clear in "Flash Vol.2 #200" as I recall. Jay states that it would take time for their speed and he would need to wait before facing Zoom again and Wally even says that he doesn't need their speed, further implying to the fact that Wally used up the speed.

It seems that the "Mantra > Bart and Jay" in terms of power ups of speed. It's not really logical, but hey it was Johns.

i was the one who said wally HAD used up their speed. therefore YOU agreed with ME first! 😄

nwoot

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Do the two of you need a room?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Grab a video camera and get in their closet. Now. This'll be a classic.

Or traumatizing... O_o

Originally posted by leonidas
geez . . . you're confused. he was going SO FAST THAT TIME SEEMED TO SLOW. amping his speed did NOT give flash "control over time". he didn't "stop time". he existed 'between seconds'. if you go fast enough, time around you begins to slow. which is why zoom says he is immortal.

Actually, there's nothing to be confused about. Only to be in denial of, like you apparently are.

Wally: "I'm as fast as Zoom. I'm standing still in time "

Zoom: "You made it into my world. We're locked between the ticks of a second"

Is this in line with how Zoom's powers were explained ? Yes, of course.

Jay: He can control how fast or slow he moves ahead in time. He can even stop himself"

Originally posted by leonidas
and when amped by jesse, he equalled zoom.

Yes, when what I posted above happened, he equalled Zoom.
It still doesn't change the fact that what you said, about my post being innacurate, is a lie, since what I posted about an amped Wally still seeing Zoom as a blur is true.

Originally posted by leonidas
likewise, he never says they move BEYOND c, but even if they are, ss effortlessly travels 100s of x, 1000s and millions of times, faster than c.

so, what's you're point?

You're arguing that Wally, a person who has been capable of going FTL even while in his unamped mode, wasn't going faster than light fighting Zoom who was pushing him to his limits, even when Wally could reach lightspeed instantly ? Oh, how nice.

Vulcan is faster than light in flight speed (just an example, there are many others). Does that mean that, unless they were fighting at speeds exceeding his flight speed, he would be able to handle their speed ? You know, this might come as a shock to you, but flight speed=/= combat/fight speed.

Shocking, isn't it ?

Man, I really hated that issue. After the stupidity with Grodd, and all that, I really don't trust Johns writing Flash. Story wise, his excellent. In terms of power levels? Horrible.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Actually, there's nothing to be confused about. Only to be in denial of, like you apparently are.

Wally: "I'm as fast as Zoom. [b]I'm standing still in time "

Zoom: "You made it into my world. We're locked between the ticks of a second"

Is this in line with how Zoom's powers were explained ? Yes, of course.

Jay: He can control how fast or slow he moves ahead in time. He can even stop himself"

Yes, when what I posted above happened, he equalled Zoom.
It still doesn't change the fact that what you said, about my post being innacurate, is a lie, since what I posted about an amped Wally still seeing Zoom as a blur is true.

You're arguing that Wally, a person who has been capable of going FTL even while in his unamped mode, wasn't going faster than light fighting Zoom who was pushing him to his limits, even when Wally could reach lightspeed instantly ? Oh, how nice.

Vulcan is faster than light in flight speed (just an example, there are many others). Does that mean that, unless they were fighting at speeds exceeding his flight speed, he would be able to handle their speed ? You know, this might come as a shock to you, but flight speed=/= combat/fight speed.

Shocking, isn't it ? [/B]

😆

you're hilarious. you lied by omission. you FAILED to say that when amped by the formula flash equalled him in speed. which is of course what i said. and if you weren't so late and behind the discussion the big people were having, you'd already have realized we established that they were fighting ftl. somethings like 1.7x c if you trust eny's math. but you're right--i can't imagine someone who can travel at THOUSANDS of x that fast, possibly being able to percieve and react to movement at THOSE kinds of speeds! impossible leo!! 😱

but this is sweet--true or false: by incanting jesse's formula and taking her speed, flash was granted control over time?

It was Johns.......

Flash lightspeed references are kind of messed up at times. . .

Superman's flight speed is enough to go to other worlds and galaxies and back in the span of panels or an issue, having him vastly over lightspeed. In Countdown he flew 25 or so light-years in the span of a few panels- many multiples of hundreds times faster than the speed of light.

Then . .Stick him in that scene with Zoom and Flash, and see how fast he's moving.

Originally posted by Juntai
Flash lightspeed references are kind of messed up at times. . .

Superman's flight speed is enough to go to other worlds and galaxies and back in the span of panels or an issue, having him vastly over lightspeed. In Countdown he flew 25 or so light-years in the span of a few panels- many multiples of hundreds times faster than the speed of light.

Then . .Stick him in that scene with Zoom and Flash, and see how fast he's moving.

I don't think the amount os panels in indicitive to how fast a character is moving.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
I don't think the amount os panels in indicitive to how fast a character is moving.

No, but it's an indication of how much time has passed....

And unless like 200 years passed, then Superman was moving a shitload faster lightspeed.

SS rips Zoom down to his base components .

Originally posted by leonidas
😆

you're hilarious. you lied by omission. you FAILED to say that when amped by the formula flash equalled him in speed. which is of course what i said. and if you weren't so late and behind the discussion the big people were having, you'd already have realized we established that they were fighting ftl. somethings like 1.7x c if you trust eny's math. but you're right--i can't imagine someone who can travel at THOUSANDS of x that fast, possibly being able to percieve and react to movement at THOSE kinds of speeds! impossible leo!! 😱

but this is sweet--true or false: by incanting jesse's formula and taking her speed, flash was granted control over time?

How could I possibly lie by omission, when I'm directly reffering the event that took place after he was amped by the formula from Jessie, which allowed him to move so fast he stood still in time, as stated and proven ? In case you didn't notice, I really don't give a damn about what was calculated by somebody else. You've got something to say, don't direct me twoards someone else.

Green Lanterns travel that speed all the time. Earth Green Lanterns. And many other characters who would still get mutilated by Zoom in h2h. Considering Surfer's cosmic senses, his map-like knowledge of the Universe and abilities, he doesn't exactly need to have 100000X lightspeed!!1 reaction time/movement speed. It's not that hard to understand.

I ask you for conclusive combat speed feats and you say that he flies fast ? That's illogical. I'm willing to bet that you can't show me one example of him being capable of fighting h2h at speeds not close to Zoom, not close to normal Wally, hell just show me something that approaches Superman's level of punching/fighting speed. You won't because there isn't any.

Originally posted by Philosophía
How could I possibly lie by omission, when I'm directly reffering the event that took place after he was amped by the formula from Jessie, which allowed him to move so fast he stood still in time, as stated and proven ? In case you didn't notice, I really don't give a damn about what was calculated by somebody else. You've got something to say, don't direct me twoards someone else.

i don't even know what that pile o'nonsense means. you CLEARLY implied that an amped flash saw zoom as just a blur. while true, you omitted the fact that an amped flash also MATCHED and defeated zoom. deny to your heart's content, but half-truths aren't cool. as for the rest--i admitted they were above lightspeed. that's . . . good for you. 😕

unfortunately, based on what was happening, it just wasn't very far ABOVE lightspeed. which is good for me. 🙂

Green Lanterns travel that speed all the time. Earth Green Lanterns. And many other characters who would still get mutilated by Zoom in h2h. Considering Surfer's cosmic senses, his map-like knowledge of the Universe and abilities, he doesn't exactly need to have 100000X lightspeed!!1 reaction time/movement speed. It's not that hard to understand.

I ask you for conclusive combat speed feats and you say that he flies fast ? That's illogical. I'm willing to bet that you can't show me one example of him being capable of fighting h2h at speeds not close to Zoom, not close to normal Wally, hell just show me something that approaches Superman's level of punching/fighting speed. You won't because there isn't any. [/B]

and i'm telling you he doesn't NEED the sort of unambiguous feat you're looking for. there is more than enough implied evidence to suggest that he would NOT be overwhelmed by zoom's speed. and this thread isn't h2h, so it doesn't matter anyway, but i'll play along for a bit.

i've never seen ss battle h2h at batman speeds. do you think he could match batman's speed? sound silly? why? if you don't think he can match batman's h2h speed, well, there is no help for you. i don't know WHY you'd accept it though, since you haven't SEEN him do it.

if you DO think him capable of countering batman's hand speed, then where do you cap this ability? he can counter batman, but can he counter spiderman? can he counter spidey's hand speed if he were focused and forced to? yes? what evidence? no? that's utterly illogical. then what about quicksilver's? where are YOU going to draw the line and give me some evidence to support your line. you've never seen him counter a mailman's hand speed! so, is THAT where your line is? what speeds CAN he counter in your clearly-educated opinion?

my initial point was zoom is not infinitely fast as some were saying. if someone moves fast enough, they can match his speed. there is no reason at all to think ss couldn't match his speed or even exceed it.

ss wins.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't even know what that pile o'nonsense means. you CLEARLY implied that an amped flash saw zoom as just a blur. while true, you omitted the fact that an amped flash also MATCHED and defeated zoom. deny to your heart's content, but half-truths aren't cool.

What the hell are you talking about ? Both of those are true. A flash amped by Jay and Bart was still seeing Zoom as a blur. Later, a Flash amped by the formula was able to equal Zoom by attaining a speed level where he was standing still in time, like zoom is capable of. I didn't omit anything, since the second 'amped Wally' you're talking about is one of the main points discussed.

Originally posted by leonidas
and i'm telling you he doesn't NEED the sort of unambiguous feat you're looking for. there is more than enough implied evidence to suggest that he would NOT be overwhelmed by zoom's speed. and this thread isn't h2h, so it doesn't matter anyway, but i'll play along for a bit.

i've never seen ss battle h2h at batman speeds. do you think he could match batman's speed? sound silly? why? if you don't think he can match batman's h2h speed, well, there is no help for you. i don't know WHY you'd accept it though, since you haven't SEEN him do it.

if you DO think him capable of countering batman's hand speed, then where do you cap this ability? he can counter batman, but can he counter spiderman? can he counter spidey's hand speed if he were focused and forced to? yes? what evidence? no? that's utterly illogical. then what about quicksilver's? where are YOU going to draw the line and give me some evidence to support your line. you've never seen him counter a mailman's hand speed! so, is THAT where your line is? what speeds CAN he counter in your clearly-educated opinion?

my initial point was zoom is not infinitely fast as some were saying. if someone moves fast enough, they can match his speed. there is no reason at all to think ss couldn't match his speed or even exceed it.

ss wins.

What.The.Hell.

Seriously.

That's the point, we must have feats of his h2h combat speed, we can't just assume he is on a level based on .. nothing. If you say he can match a character in h2h in h2h, which imples him being able to move his fists/body in order to attack/dodge at speeds comparable to Superman/Wally/Zoom, then you've got to give me h2h feats, not flying feats and then taking leaps of logic and assume it puts him at a level that he has never demonstrated in h2h.

It's damn logical.

Originally posted by Philosophía
What the hell are you talking about ? Both of those are true. A flash amped by Jay and Bart was still seeing Zoom as a blur. Later, a Flash amped by the formula was able to equal Zoom by attaining a speed level where he was standing still in time, like zoom is capable of. I didn't omit anything, since the second 'amped Wally' you're talking about is one of the main points discussed.

What.The.Hell.

Seriously.

That's the point, we must have feats of his h2h combat speed, we can't just assume he is on a level based on .. nothing. If you say he can match a character in h2h in h2h, which imples him being able to move his fists/body in order to attack/dodge at speeds comparable to Superman/Wally/Zoom, then you've got to give me h2h feats, not flying feats and then taking leaps of logic and assume it puts him at a level that he has never demonstrated in h2h.

It's damn logical.

okay, soooooo . . . have you ever seen ss match the hand speed of a mailman?

could he see and react to a punch thrown by batman?

the questions should be easy to someone as logical as yourself. tell me--what hand speed CAN ss match, and tell me why you think THAT is where he maxes out.

please, i'm begging you--answer ONE question. people are getting bored . . .

galactus: the devourer # 2.

surfer fires some sort of blast that made space warp, making red shift hopelessly crash into him stronger than the pull of the nearby black hole.

i'm pretty sure naija boy or goob would have the scan of that.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
galactus: the devourer # 2.

surfer fires some sort of blast that made space warp, making red shift hopelessly crash into him stronger than the pull of the nearby black hole.

i'm pretty sure naija boy or goob would have the scan of that.

but . . . what's that supposed to show exactly? 😕

Originally posted by leonidas
but . . . what's that supposed to show exactly? 😕

Dont know. He just asked for the scan.

Originally posted by leonidas
but . . . what's that supposed to show exactly? 😕