Originally posted by Mindship
Isn't current Thor Odinpowered? At skyfather level? Whereas Surfer's upgrade is at best ambiguous?I hate to say it, but I'm leaning toward Thor on this one.
Thor's back to classic levels. It seems like the 60 sec rule on earth is gone, but if Mjolnir breaks Thor dies. That has no standing on this measure-up though.
Originally posted by psycho gundamWhich makes Surfer more versatile not more powerful.
the fact that surfer holds back a lot more than thor kinda makes it inconclusive.by feats, thor wins (i guess), but there are things surfer can do that thor can't.
Originally posted by darthgooberIt's in his mindset. I didn't mean anyone take me literally on that comment, but Thor really wants to fight you while the Surfer would avoid it if he can.
What makes you say that Surfer avoids battle at all cost? I mean sure he USED to, but that was before he became Galactus's herald again.
Surfer isn't a Morg type herald and looks for ways to satiate his master with the least amount of bloodshed and conflict. Skaar kind of screwed that up while turning Galactus into an old power addict.
Originally posted by Kris BlazeWell...that certainly puts the Rulk encounter in perspective. 😉
Thor's back to classic levels.
It seems like the 60 sec rule on earth is gone, but if Mjolnir breaks Thor dies. That has no standing on this measure-up though.
If this is the case...then I don't know. The only real difference I can see at this point then is that Thor has the heart of a warrior, whereas Surfer still pretty much has the heart of a pacifist. Even if their power is equal, attitude would seem to give the edge to Thor in a fight. But really, it could probably go either way, given the point of any story they'd be fighting in.
Originally posted by quanchi112
It's in his mindset. I didn't mean anyone take me literally on that comment, but Thor really wants to fight you while the Surfer would avoid it if he can.Surfer isn't a Morg type herald and looks for ways to satiate his master with the least amount of bloodshed and conflict. Skaar kind of screwed that up while turning Galactus into an old power addict.
Surfer's more than willing to offer up planets populace to Galactus, he just tries to give them a chance to leave if it's possible. If not... well that's their problem and he's ready to take out any of them that try to impede Galactus in any way. Just see his fight with Nova for an example.
Originally posted by darthgooberI don't think his mindset has changed all that much. I mean it has changed slightly, but like you agreed on he still likes to avoid conflict. He fought with Skaar while attempting to change his mind. He ended up getting placed into submission because he didn't put his enemy down. He thought separating the old power would be enough and was going to return with Galactus which made him vulnerable to an obedience disk.
But it's not his mindset anymore. He doesn't seek out needless battle but he's more than willing to put the smackdown when a fight presents itself. That's no different than Thor. Thor does get angrier most of the time, but Surfer keeping a cool head in no way makes him a pacifist.Surfer's more than willing to offer up planets populace to Galactus, he just tries to give them a chance to leave if it's possible. If not... well that's their problem and he's ready to take out any of them that try to impede Galactus in any way. Just see his fight with Nova for an example.
Surfer helped Nova in the end and got to a distance outside his master's presence to speak with him while not seriously injuring him.
Surfer's still a pacifist and still doesn't put down his enemies like Skaar. Let's see how he fares against BrB.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't think his mindset has changed all that much. I mean it has changed slightly, but like you agreed on he still likes to avoid conflict. He fought with Skaar while attempting to change his mind. He ended up getting placed into submission because he didn't put his enemy down. He thought separating the old power would be enough and was going to return with Galactus which made him vulnerable to an obedience disk.Surfer helped Nova in the end and got to a distance outside his master's presence to speak with him while not seriously injuring him.
Surfer's still a pacifist and still doesn't put down his enemies like Skaar. Let's see how he fares against BrB.
Even before Annihilation, you can look to things like his fight with Cable(who was pleading for peace with the Surfer I believe) or this little encounter...
...to see that Surfer's no tree hugger when the shit hits the fan.
Originally posted by darthgooberWould this be a fairer statement then: at heart Thor is more of a warrior than Surfer? Ie, he is a Warrior Born, whereas Norrin is a Warrior Made.
But it's not his mindset anymore.
It's a tough call for me. Basically, I'm still inclined to say that Mjolnir, ie, the hammer itself, is more powerful than Surfer's power cosmic. But Thor needs Mjolnir much, much more than the Surfer needs his board. This puts Thor at a tremendous tactical disadvantage which the Surfer can - and has - exploited in the past to good effect.
Originally posted by Mindship
Would this be a fairer statement then: at heart Thor is more of a warrior than Surfer? Ie, he is a Warrior Born, whereas Norrin is a Warrior Made.It's a tough call for me. Basically, I'm still inclined to say that Mjolnir, ie, the hammer itself, is more powerful than Surfer's power cosmic. But Thor needs Mjolnir much, much more than the Surfer needs his board. This puts Thor at a tremendous tactical disadvantage which the Surfer can - and has - exploited in the past to good effect.
I think I know why you think that(Surfer's comment in their first fight) but I disagree. Check this out(it's something I've been wanting to get your opinion on anyway since you're a big fan of both characters)...
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/FM_1980_004_34.jpg
Surfer says that the magic of Thor's mallet is mightier than his cosmic force, he doesn't say that Thor's hammer is more powerful than his Power Cosmic. Pretty much every time I've seen Surfer talking about cosmic force, it was about an energy blast like this...
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/FM_1979_001_04.jpg
Now if we look on the page before Surfer's statement about Thor's hammer...
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/FM_1980_004_33.jpg
... we see Surfer trying unsuccessfully to keep Thor's hammer away with energy blasts. So it seems to me that Surfer wasn't saying that Thor's hammer had more power than he, he was saying that whatever enchantment(which we know to be Odin's) that makes Thor's hammer return to his hand should be too powerful for Surfer's energies to overcome like they did at the end. I can totally understand people interpreting it differently, but it seems to fit better IMO. What do you think?
Goob, it might be that Mjolnir is simply a better conduit for channelling greater parts of the unlimited energy source at a time.
Both have an edge on their own in battles. Thor has much experience and the proper attitude, but Surfer's power cosmic just seems easier to use, you know? It just seems that firing off energy blasts and all that jazz is so much simpler and handier when it comes straight out of your hands.
In this scenario I imagine that they are both trying to unload on a training dummy or something. I would give Thor the edge because of a couple of things. First barring Godblast, none of Thor's attack require anything of him other than to direct Mjolnir. Second I believe that Mjolnir is simply able to put out more than Norrin.
Originally posted by darthgoober👆 👆 👆 That, and that he flies standing up. 😎
To me one of the biggest appeals of the Surfer has been that he WANTS to be a pacifist and live in peace, but the universe just won't let him.
Funny. The scan below, with the Surfer opening the space capsule: is that from the same issue where the Surfer encounters yeti, which then proceed to grab and toss Surfer around by the head? You just don't get more pacifisty than that. But I imagine now he wouldn't be so passive.
I think I know why you think that(Surfer's comment in their first fight) but I disagree. Check this out(it's something I've been wanting to get your opinion on anyway since you're a big fan of both characters)...I think I see what you're saying: you're weighing specifics (ie, a cosmic field vs hammer-return enchantment, in which case the latter is more powerful) against a general overview (Power Cosmic output vs Mjolnir output, in which case they are about equal). Is that right? I had never really thought about it that way, in which case you may have a point but that also might be splitting hairs.http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/FM_1980_004_34.jpg
Surfer says that the magic of Thor's mallet is mightier than his cosmic force, he doesn't say that Thor's hammer is more powerful than his Power Cosmic. Pretty much every time I've seen Surfer talking about cosmic force, it was about an energy blast like this...
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/FM_1979_001_04.jpg
Now if we look on the page before Surfer's statement about Thor's hammer...
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/FM_1980_004_33.jpg
... we see Surfer trying unsuccessfully to keep Thor's hammer away with energy blasts. So it seems to me that Surfer wasn't saying that Thor's hammer had more power than he, he was saying that whatever enchantment(which we know to be Odin's) that makes Thor's hammer return to his hand should be too powerful for Surfer's energies to overcome like they did at the end. I can totally understand people interpreting it differently, but it seems to fit better IMO. What do you think?
I suppose I'm trying to give Mjolnir its due, ie, it is (arguably) the most powerful Asgardian artifact going. If it is able to generate more sheer wattage, the significant drawback is that it is, in fact, an artifact requiring a wielder. In a sense, Thor is the "weak link" in the Thor-Mjolnir dyad, which for me nicely balances out the fact that the Surfer may not (???) be able to generate quite the same level of brute force, but on the other hand, Surfer is a self-contained power unit with no such tactical weakness.
(I'm also thinking of when Thor repulsed Galactus: a weakened one, true, and I still don't like that he did it; but was the Surfer ever capable of such a feat? I'm not sure, eg, if channeling Crunch energies would be the same as generating such energies).
Originally posted by Mindship
In a sense, Thor is the "weak link" in the Thor-Mjolnir dyad, which for me nicely balances out the fact that the Surfer may not (???) be able to generate quite the same level of brute force, but on the other hand, Surfer is a self-contained power unit with no such tactical weakness.
This is practically the essence of Thor vs Surfer and I agree 100%.
Thor's dependency on Mjolnir does not extend to fights versus "true evil" in which case he can call upon Durok-Dropper-ish moves. But Surfer is another hero, something which might put Thor at a disadvantage. Thor would probably display a level of mercy which to him, only extends to other heroes. The same level of mercy that Surfer extends to everybody.
But before we get carried away, Thor often does his best to avoid combat. He's used hypnosis with Mjolnir even 🙂
I think Surfer is the more powerful of the two, but his passive characterization keeps him from using his full potential. Thor, on the other hand, is more prone to bring the hammer down (pun not intended) on his opponents and will have the more spectacular battle feats. Surfer only resorts to force when all other options have been exhausted, and when he does it's usually the endgame in a situation. Versatility is a near wash in the energy absorption/manipulation category, with Surfer being the more skilled of the two, and Surfer seems to have more passive traits than Thor (empathy, psionics, higher degree of cosmic awareness, better means of travel, healing others, etc.).
