Who is more powerful, Thor or the Silver Surfer?

Originally posted by darthgoober
He says the hammers magic, and the only "magic" he'd seen was the return enchantment and the absorption. The absorption has no specific bearing at the moment of the statement but the return enchantment is being directly challenged when the statement is being made so it seems pretty clear to me that the return enchantment is what's being referenced. And it WAS tested when Surfer kept blasting the hammer after Thor recalled it.

No the issue didn't go to great lengths to highlight Thor's dominance over Surfer, Thor got in one shot(which Surfer bounced right back from) and was getting his ass kicked for the most part. So when Surfer references strength right after Thor preforms a feat of strength, it seems a bit of a stretch to infer "overall power".

Thor crushed Mjolnir back into his hands as Surfer actively tried to keep it away, the return enchantment was never actually challenged:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsSilverSurfer03.jpg

Why would he be referring only to the return enchantment instead of the hammer's ability to hit really hard or absorb energy when he says magic? The return enchantment as far as Surfer knows has the power of a boomerang of you want to play semantics here. And all of the hammer's abilities were enchantment by the same person, there is no distinction in their power.

Okay, you can choose to disagree.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Surfer has 2 wins against Firelord and 1 loss via monologue when he gave the downed Firelord a chance to surrender before he finished him off. Thor has 3 stalemates... I'd say Surfer's got the better record.

Firelord has lost to Surfer but Thor never tries to go full tilt against Firelord.

Not to mention Firelord was never the same after his defeat against Spidey.

It's like arguing Surfer has two losses against Iron Man and Thor has none so Thor has better record.

Hulk outright said that either Surfer's power cosmic or Surfer himself were stronger than he(the art's unclear), Thor never got that kind of admission.

Hulk and Namor together were unable to wrest mjolnir from Thor's grip and Hulk said that fighting Thor was madness for Namor.

And Surfer KO'd Hulk right after with a shot to the head from his surfboard shortly thereafter which gives him a faster win against Hulk than Thor's ever gotten.

Breaking free of a friend who's trying to hold you back isn't really "overpowering" someone.

Surfer and Namor were trying to beat him. Hulk was overpowering both of them at the same time.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Savage hulk overpowers both silver surfer and namor

Thor has never been treated like that by Hulk.

I feel like when Hulk is in the picture, he's written as a far more physically powerful character by proxy while Surfer is on the opposite end of the spectrum (Powerful but not physical) so it's not a really fair interpretation. Thor is somewhat in the middle: There are writers who will have him physically stalemate Hulk no problem as strength is sometimes his main trait.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor crushed Mjolnir back into his hands as Surfer actively tried to keep it away, the return enchantment was never actually challenged:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsSilverSurfer03.jpg

Why would he be referring only to the return enchantment instead of the hammer's ability to hit really hard or absorb energy when he says magic? The return enchantment as far as Surfer knows has the power of a boomerang of you want to play semantics here. And all of the hammer's abilities were enchantment by the same person, there is no distinction in their power.

Okay, you can choose to disagree.

It's being challenged right there in the scan you posted. He tried to blast it away but the thing stayed right there anyway so Thor could grab onto the energy field surrounding it with both hands. Then later, Surfer put's it in an energy field and it just lays on the ground. As for all the magic of the hammer being the same with no distinction in power... I'd have to disagree. I haven't checked the instances for context(something I know is necessary in this case) but abhi said that there have been times when the return enchantment has been stopped by a few characters, if he's telling the truth does them being able to stop the enchantment mean that they possess greater overall power than Thor? Does the hammer returning after it was banished by Thanos w/IG mean that Thor was more powerful? Things like specific enchantments are portrayed differently to help the story along, you can't just say that things like the hammer's "return enchantment" or "can't be lifted enchantment" are indicative of the overall power of the hammer.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I feel like when Hulk is in the picture, he's written as a far more physically powerful character by proxy while Surfer is on the opposite end of the spectrum (Powerful but not physical) so it's not a really fair interpretation. Thor is somewhat in the middle: There are writers who will have him physically stalemate Hulk no problem as strength is sometimes his main trait.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's being challenged right there in the scan you posted. He tried to blast it away but the thing stayed right there anyway so Thor could grab onto the energy field surrounding it with both hands. Then later, Surfer put's it in an energy field and it just lays on the ground. As for all the magic of the hammer being the same with no distinction in power... I'd have to disagree. I haven't checked the instances for context(something I know is necessary in this case) but abhi said that there have been times when the return enchantment has been stopped by a few characters, if he's telling the truth does them being able to stop the enchantment mean that they possess greater overall power than Thor? Does the hammer returning after it was banished by Thanos w/IG mean that Thor was more powerful? Things like specific enchantments are portrayed differently to help the story along, you can't just say that things like the hammer's "return enchantment" or "can't be lifted enchantment" are indicative of the overall power of the hammer.

Where? He blasted the hammer to keep it away from Thor and then it was Thor who crushed the cosmic blast around it. What does that have to do with the return enchantment? He never actively tries to blast it away from Thor, just to keep it out of his hands.

There have been times when the hammer has been kept out of Thor's hands but never for long. Different enchantments have different loop holes depending on the writer but being able to slow or stop the hammer isn't the same as being more powerful than it: The hammer's return enchantment is connected to Thor's will and how badly he needs it.

Also that's a silly distinction: Sending it far away through teleportation isn't a play on overpowering or failing to overpower the return enchantment.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Firelord has lost to Surfer but Thor never tries to go full tilt against Firelord.

Not to mention Firelord was never the same after his defeat against Spidey.

It's like arguing Surfer has two losses against Iron Man and Thor has none so Thor has better record.

Surfer's never going full tilt against Firelord either. He's always trying to reason with Firelord and Firelord's going for the kill.

Surfer's doesn't have "losses" against Ironman, he has double ko's. And they're from his period of confinement on Earth. Besides, you asked when Surfer has preformed better than Thor against peers. Surfer has 2 wins against someone that's stalemated Thor 3 times.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hulk and Namor together were unable to wrest mjolnir from Thor's grip and Hulk said that fighting Thor was madness for Namor.

Hulk saying that Namor shouldn't fight Thor is in no was as impressive as Hulk saying that Surfer was stronger than he.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He had blasted him before. Thor koed a far stronger hulk in Hulk annual 2001 with just one lightning bolt.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Surfer and Namor were trying to beat him. Hulk was overpowering both of them at the same time.

Thor has never been treated like that by Hulk.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing Hulk actually do anything to Surfer there. Also, aren't those scan from The Order... which you like to say isn't valid?

No, Abhiligend is the final authority on what is legitimate: I.e. he uses it when he likes and debates for 10 pages that it isn't legitimate when he doesn't.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Where? He blasted the hammer to keep it away from Thor and then it was Thor who crushed the cosmic blast around it. What does that have to do with the return enchantment? He never actively tries to blast it away from Thor, just to keep it out of his hands.

There have been times when the hammer has been kept out of Thor's hands but never for long. Different enchantments have different loop holes depending on the writer but being able to slow or stop the hammer isn't the same as being more powerful than it: The hammer's return enchantment is connected to Thor's will and how badly he needs it.

Also that's a silly distinction: Sending it far away through teleportation isn't a play on overpowering or failing to overpower the return enchantment.

It's a BLAST, there's momentum to it. He saw the hammer returning, he blasted it before Thor had a hold of it, the hammer didn't go anywhere.

Right, different writers, different loopholes, different portrayals. And for that reason it's not reasonable to say that failing to keep it away isn't the same as being less powerful than Thor.

When he banished it by sending it away, it didn't just fly back to the field from space, it teleported itself back from where ever Thanos sent it too. That's pretty telling of how powerful the return enchantment on the hammer can be portrayed.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I feel like when Hulk is in the picture, he's written as a far more physically powerful character by proxy while Surfer is on the opposite end of the spectrum (Powerful but not physical) so it's not a really fair interpretation. Thor is somewhat in the middle: There are writers who will have him physically stalemate Hulk no problem as strength is sometimes his main trait.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
No, Abhiligend is the final authority on what is legitimate: I.e. he uses it when he likes and debates for 10 pages that it isn't legitimate when he doesn't.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's a BLAST, there's momentum to it. He saw the hammer returning, he blasted it before Thor had a hold of it, the hammer didn't go anywhere.

Right, different writers, different loopholes, different portrayals. And for that reason it's not reasonable to say that failing to keep it away isn't the same as being less powerful than Thor.

When he banished it by sending it away, it didn't just fly back to the field from space, it teleported itself back from where ever Thanos sent it too. That's pretty telling of how powerful the return enchantment on the hammer can be portrayed.

The blast formed a cosmic shell around the hammer though. You can literally see the blast surround the hammer in the first panel: A blast doesn't itself have to have momentum: I can point to many showings like this under Lee where Odin blasts something from trillions of light years away and it does something completely different for example.

As a result, I think your equivalency here is false.

But Thanos wasn't actively barring it from returning: He sent it away. The most powerful portrayals of the hammer is it overpowering something ACTIVELY trying to keep it away.

Anyways, I think this conversation has run it's course. I believe Thor to be more powerful than Surfer, in part due to Mjolnir which imo has an edge in energy absorption, projection, striking power and overall power capacity in comparison to Surfer (Especially with the current revelation of the Mother Storm* which as stupid as it is, explains a lot but contradicts Stormbreaker/Ultimate Mjolnir being as powerful). I take it you disagree, but that's fine. I give Thor 6/10 against Surfer, which I think is reasonable.

*What is your opinion on the Mother Storm as a side note? How do you feel it impacts the Surfer/Thor relationship? Does it change anything? I feel like it takes the plot device of Thor overcoming his tier or extreme odds and gives it a plausible reasoning that can be called upon anytime. Which is a double edge sword because it's an auto-win but you have to be stupid not to use it often.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The blast formed a cosmic shell around the hammer though. You can literally see the blast surround the hammer in the first panel: A blast doesn't itself have to have momentum: I can point to many showings like this under Lee where Odin blasts something from trillions of light years away and it does something completely different for example.

As a result, I think your equivalency here is false.

But Thanos wasn't actively barring it from returning: He sent it away. The most powerful portrayals of the hammer is it overpowering something ACTIVELY trying to keep it away.

Anyways, I think this conversation has run it's course. I believe Thor to be more powerful than Surfer, in part due to Mjolnir which imo has an edge in energy absorption, projection, striking power and overall power capacity in comparison to Surfer (Especially with the current revelation of the Mother Storm which as stupid as it is, explains a lot but contradicts Stormbreaker/Ultimate Mjolnir being as powerful). I take it you disagree, but that's fine.

Look at the style of blast though. It's identical to the blast that Surfer sends Thor reeling with right afterwards. That's not to say that it didn't carry the extra effect of the energy cocoon, just that there's also nothing to note that it lacks the typical concussive effect of comic book energy blasts.

Well that would depend on whether he thought "away" or "away and don't come back" which is something we'll never know. My greater point is that failing to overpower that specific enchantment doesn't distinctly equal being less powerful than Thor.

And that's cool, I don't mind people thinking Thor's more powerful because I know that it comes down to how one much weight is given to the various ways "more powerful" might be defined. My only issue with the notion that Marvel outright said that Thor was more powerful because they never actually have and there's a good argument to the contrary that one can make.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That's not true. The injury was specifically stated to be extremely painful and getting worse by the moment. It was highlighted more than once how bad it was, that it could not heal, and that he was bleeding not blood but energy.

Fyi, the Space Armor was used to enhance the mobility of regular Asgardian's and gear them for space combat (Flight etc.) but such augments are negligible for Thor.

Also, what do you mean Surfer was holding back? He was more pacifistic in the sense he paused when he saw Thor's wound I guess (Further highlighting how serious it was as even he hadn't seen anything like that before) but did you see the way he was talking to Thor?

I think the fight between the two would have looked even with Thor having an edge (He just looked more impressive to be imho but maybe it was because he was more aggressive) but once you include the fact of the injury, it swings way into his favor in my opinion.

The Surfer spent most of the arc trying NOT to fight. I thought Thor had this major damage soak that injuries only made him fight harder? He was far more aggressive than the Surfer and and at no point in the story did he look more impressive.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Surfer's never going full tilt against Firelord either. He's always trying to reason with Firelord and Firelord's going for the kill.

In SS 84, he lost because of the same. Later he went full tilt and won.

In SS 19, he used Firelord's own power against him after they stalemated.

Surfer's doesn't have "losses" against Ironman, he has double ko's.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing Hulk actually do anything to Surfer there. Also, aren't those scan from The Order... which you like to say isn't valid?

ermm

Hulk no sells Surfer and is overpowering both him and Namor at the same time. Tell me why he is not doing anything to Surfer?

Why isn't The Order valid? When I talk about Defenders series invalid due to time travel, it's 2011 series.

What happened to Quan? Finally cut out after Maul was curbed by Kenobi?