Kain vs Dumah

Originally posted by Foxy Shazam
Kain's Reaver was able to harm the Elder God, if your all saying that it will fail to harm Dumah then you all need your heads examined.

Just for the record Raziel is not just a "revived vampire" he was ressurected by the Elder God as a devourer of souls, to bring Kain and the other vampires back to the cycle of death and rebirth, Dumah is nothing like that. Dumah is still more or less a vampire.

At any rate, whose to say Dumah can kill Kain? He has survived worse than Dumah.

Edit: I forgot Kain also gained the power immolation in BO2, which allows him to raise a barrier of intense flame around his opponent. Kain has more than enough literal "fire power" in his aresenal, Dumah is going to get fried again.

The Elder 'God' is entirely featless. Sorry. Especially in terms of durability.

It doesn't matter if Raziel has a slightly different title to this name. He and Dumah share some abilities and needs, such as needing to feed on souls and being able to exist on either plane.

Yes, Dumah can kill Kain. Easily. ffs sake Raziel tore into Kain's chest with his bare hands, Dumah getting a hold of Kain is end game. Either through sheer brute force, or again, sucking Kain's soul out through his wounds.

Immolation was mentioned already. Absolutely no indication that it is any stronger than Raziel's fire glyph spell, let alone the super furnace.

Very observant of you. Kain's reaver is the true Reaver, the physical blade, combinied with Raziel's spirit/the wraith. Raziel's is just the wraith blade, thus only half of the true blade, making it less powerful. The true Reaver would kill the crap out of Dumah.

The true reaver has no feats to suggest it can get through Dumah either, let alone kill him.

Or are we to just believe that the power difference between the wraith blade and physical reaver is the former making dumah ticklish and the latter being able to kill him? lol.

being able to burrow through solid rock across a continent is a feat, as is surviving the amount of pressure a being of his size would be under whilst doing it.

Raziel tore kains heart out after not only a long battle where both had more powerful blades than used agianst Dumah but also, Kain was not fighting at full efficency, Raziel is also more powerful than Dumah, you forget that Dumah just like the rest of Kains sons are just a fragment of Kains soul, each gaining more of kains dark gift depending on how much of his soul he used, Raziel has more than Dumah.

It disintegrates rock as shown by Magnus, also the fire glyph was never canonically used against Dumah.

Dumah was immolated, simple.

foxy shazam

That was a pretty worthless bump. Isn't there a rule about only bumping if you have something constructive?

If you use the cheats to get the reaver, then you'll see that Melchiah laughs when you hit him with it, and so does Kain the first time you fight him.

^And what is that supposed to matter? If you hit Kain with your claws it hurts him greatly but then you use a cheat code to get the reaver when you aren't supposed to have it and he laughs it off.

Not a showing of anything canonically, that's just coding to make sure you fight the bosses as they were meant to be.

I'm still taking Dumah in this, Kain's immolation power is not as volatile as that super furnace lighting up the whole ground floor.

Dumah cannot harm Kain and would be vunerable to having his soul devoured.

Selective memory much?

Raziel who's far weaker physically was able to tear into Kain's chest completely.

Dumah who has the strength to make small earthquakes should thus be able to tear Kain limb from limb, not only that, he is able to suck Kain's soul out gradually through any wound he makes.

Vulnerable to soul devouring? Not with the Soul Reaver, as has been shown. Dumah will have to be killed first.

after a long battle of Kain under the effects of utter PIS, the amount of damage done to Kain must have been great for him to be weakened to that degree, as Raziel has slashed and kicked against Kain visciously before and caused zero damage in the intro to SR 2.

First he will never touch Kain, so tearing him limb from limb is not part of it, and you would still have to calculate the force of this earthquake.

Spirit wrack, death etc and why would he have to be killed first? only Raziels version was inadequate which is vastly weaker than the completed Soul reaver.

-Nothing PIS about Raziel hurting Kain physically. Raziel has always been capable of this and its been showed several times throughout the games. In the first fight against Kain in Soul Reaver Kain lets out a painful groan in a cutscene after taking Raziel's last blow. Only after that does he strike Raziel with the reaver.

In the end of Soul Reaver, Kain retreats visibly injured from his conflict with Raziel. He was nursing his arm. The Soul Reaver 2 intro retcons him retreating with an injury, but nowhere does it show Kain is invulnerable to Raziel's physical attacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jws63E9dNN8
Raziel starts his attack at 2:07 and is successful in making Kain reel back from the blows and the kick even sends him flying back. You can say there was zero damage, but that's plainly because you hear from the blows that Raziel is dealing blunt force blows. He's not trying to gut Kain.

Remember still that Raziel claims to have increased in power at some point in Defiance.

Raziel by feats is probably a 100 tonner, so its not as if his blows are weak or anything.

-There is nothing I have to calculate regarding the earthquake. That level of power in the first place is superfluous for what is necessary to harm Kain. Seeing as Raziel has done it several times and again, Raziel is much weaker than Dumah. No one else in Lok has shown Dumah's level of strength.

He won't touch Kain? Kain is going to have to come in close at some point, and Dumah was certainly not a slow runner.

-Now, I don't have to prove anything regarding the Earthquake, but you DO have to prove that the upgraded Reaver is going to be able to outdo Dumah's durability.

Raziel's Reaver more or less tickled Dumah, I need to see something suggesting that the upgrade was somehow astronomical enough to go from being a proverbial feather against Dumah's hide to being a viable killing weapon.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
-Nothing PIS about Raziel hurting Kain physically. Raziel has always been capable of this and its been showed several times throughout the games. In the first fight against Kain in Soul Reaver Kain lets out a painful groan in a cutscene after taking Raziel's last blow. Only after that does he strike Raziel with the reaver.

In the end of Soul Reaver, Kain retreats visibly injured from his conflict with Raziel. He was nursing his arm. The Soul Reaver 2 intro retcons him retreating with an injury, but nowhere does it show Kain is invulnerable to Raziel's physical attacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jws63E9dNN8
Raziel starts his attack at 2:07 and is successful in making Kain reel back from the blows and the kick even sends him flying back. You can say there was zero damage, but that's plainly because you hear from the blows that Raziel is dealing blunt force blows. He's not trying to gut Kain.

Remember still that Raziel claims to have increased in power at some point in Defiance.

Raziel by feats is probably a 100 tonner, so its not as if his blows are weak or anything.

-There is nothing I have to calculate regarding the earthquake. That level of power in the first place is superfluous for what is necessary to harm Kain. Seeing as Raziel has done it several times and again, Raziel is much weaker than Dumah. No one else in Lok has shown Dumah's level of strength.

He won't touch Kain? Kain is going to have to come in close at some point, and Dumah was certainly not a slow runner.

-Now, I don't have to prove anything regarding the Earthquake, but you DO have to prove that the upgraded Reaver is going to be able to outdo Dumah's durability.

Raziel's Reaver more or less tickled Dumah, I need to see something suggesting that the upgrade was somehow astronomical enough to go from being a proverbial feather against Dumah's hide to being a viable killing weapon.

ofc it shows his pretty much invulerable, he is struck several times and theres zero damage....

Raziel does indeed increase greeatly, as does his reaver increase since fighting Dumah.

Indeed, he is, but still int that cutscene thats a hellava lot of damage Kain must be taking and still not having a single bruise. its still not arguable that Kain was indeed damaged during the fight between him and Raziel before being ripped, the last reaver slash in the cutscene slashes Kains chest.

Yes but the quake is little and how would you know Raziel in Defiane or SR2 intro is weaker than Dumah? Dumah says a lot about his stength but he has a lot of fewer feats than Kain or Raziel, his little quakes do not do much more than unsteady raziel.

The reaver Kain uses can slice the Elder God, the Elder God is arguably more durable than Dumah considering it exists under the entire mantle of the world....and effortlessly slashes through rock/burrows. Furthermore Raziel cannot seem to slash the EG at all, but Kain can.

If Kain wanted to, he would beat the shit out of Raziel, oh wait...

How do you know that Raziel could possibly be a 100-tonner?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Raziel who's far weaker physically was able to tear into Kain's chest completely.

When Kain faced Raziel in Defiance, Raziel "tore" thru a demention.

If kain wanted to lol? in the intro Raziel was like a toy, he always is to kain apart from in Defiance where hes not trying to make an enemy of Raz or jibe him. He liftes him about, throws him, manhandles him etc

He lifts heavy objects all the time, personally I would put him on the 40-50 scale, although my memory on such things are poor, hes likely lifted more.

Exactly. And, most likely, Raziel>Dumah=Kain>Raziel=Kain>Dumah.

The blast of energy from Raziel is so strong that it blasts Kain through barrier that separates the different dimensions and into the Demon Realm.

YouTube video

@7:29

Source: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=37412

Rationally speaking, Dumah couldn't kill Kain because it is not his fate to die at Dumah's hands, and I know that theory is probably wrong, but...

If i'm not mistaken, Amy stated that Raziel's Wraith Blade can hurt can, so maybe that was PIS?

Originally posted by Gumachi
Exactly. And, most likely, Raziel>Dumah=Kain>Raziel=Kain>Dumah.

YouTube video

@7:29

Source: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=37412

Rationally speaking, Dumah couldn't kill Kain because it is not his fate to die at Dumah's hands, and I know that theory is probably wrong, but...

Well actually for once you are indeed correct, Kain cannot in LOK die, its simply not his destiny, time will not allow it because time is immutable in LOK, things happen the way they always would have, the proof for that is in the same source as your quote.

Either way, Kain going all out can defeat anyone in Nosgoth, Dumah is too slow to fight Kain who coudl hit him with lightning, soul blasts, fire etc...

Since no-limit fallacies are ruled out, and Dumah can kill Kain, it's possible that Kain could kill Dumah, I think.

A no limit fallacy is when you assume that a statement such as "Can destroy anything" in a fiction actually does destroy anything in all fictions and against all opponents. In this case however you still have to defeat what something is, Kain is invulerable to being defeated based on time not allowing it due to immutability. Dumah cannot defeat that, not many can which is why its removed.

Dumah could never hurt Kain at all, hes never going to get close as Kain can teleport and is faster than Dumah physically anyway and even his soul drain is of limited range. On the other hand a vast range of Kain powers are very long ranged.

And CosmicComet, by your logic, Raziel is a 100-tonner, if that's the case, doesn't that show a great feat from Kain? Who tanked 100 tons? And besides, Raziel was possessed by The Hylden Lord at the time.

Originally posted by Burning thought
he holds his face and thats still gameplay graphics and not his face, hes hardly damaged still. hes immune to Raziel in Soul reaver 2 intro.

ofc it shows his pretty much invulerable, he is struck several times and theres zero damage....

Raziel does indeed increase greeatly, as does his reaver increase since fighting Dumah.

Indeed, he is, but still int that cutscene thats a hellava lot of damage Kain must be taking and still not having a single bruise. its still not arguable that Kain was indeed damaged during the fight between him and Raziel before being ripped, the last reaver slash in the cutscene slashes Kains chest.

Yes but the quake is little and how would you know Raziel in Defiane or SR2 intro is weaker than Dumah? Dumah says a lot about his stength but he has a lot of fewer feats than Kain or Raziel, his little quakes do not do much more than unsteady raziel.

The reaver Kain uses can slice the Elder God, the Elder God is arguably more durable than Dumah considering it exists under the entire mantle of the world....and effortlessly slashes through rock/burrows. Furthermore Raziel cannot seem to slash the EG at all, but Kain can.

-He's not 'immune' or 'invulnerable' anywhere. Why you choose to blindly apply those words I don't know? Surely no one could be as fervently blind a fanboy as that to be able to claim so.

Raziel hurt him in the first fight in Soul Reaver (cutscene certified, in the same cutscene where he strikes Raz with the Reaver seconds after).

Raziel was able to phase him and knock him back in Soul Reaver 2's intro with blunt force attacks.

And then Raziel in Defiance bore his claws through Kain's abdomen and tore out his heart. It was actually not through his chest as I first thought, so you can't claim Kain's chest was already cut open from the reaver slash since Raziel went through his stomach instead.

You'd think being 'invulnerable' to Raziel's physical attacks he wouldn't have been budged, let alone majorly hurt. Ever.

Dumah is the one invulnerable to Raziel's might. Kain is simply somewhat resistant.

-And despite Raz claiming a power increase, there was nothing suggesting a physical increase. His power base just grew after gaining TK from consuming Turel's soul. That's all.

-I addressed the slash on his chest already. The wound was shown on Kain's chest in the cutscene but Raziel actually ripped into Kain's abdomen.

-The quake has to be quite powerful to phase Raziel as it did. If you remember Nosgoth is plagued with quakes and in the beginning of SR when Raziel finds himself outside of Kain's citadel there was an earthquake. That earthquake did nothing but surprise Raziel somewhat. Dumah's earthquake is powerful enough to stop Raziel in his tracks, and it seems some essence of Raz's soul emanates from him because of the vibration.

Dumah may have fewer strength feats but the one he does have is an order of magnitude greater than anything Raziel or Kain have done. Raz in the beggining of SR 2 is weaker than Dumah because its the same Raziel that was weaker throughout SR...Ridiculous question.😬 Raziel knocked Kain back about 15 feet and held him up against a wall for a time, Raziel would never, ever, be able to do that to Dumah. A guy who laughs at anything he could try. Strength and durability go hand in hand, especially here.

-Raziel can exist wherever the Elder God does. And when does Raziel attack the Elder God again?