HewhoknowsallLucien's already made a case for his side, and it's a good one. You, on the other hand, are the only person attempting to resist that case, and you're doing a shitty job of it.
Are you actually going to make a case for the Empire or are you just planning on quoting Lucien whenever I ask you to explain?
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
No, Rome was already on the decline when it fell.
The British Empire had already lost most of it's territory when it gave up it's colonies.
The Ottoman Empire was already on the decline.
etc.
Originally posted by ares834
But when they began to decline they began to fall. It wasn't as instantaneous as the GE. Real life empire's falls are slow.
Which is exactly what I'm trying to say: it's strange that the Empire fell so quickly when it was (according to Lucien) at the height of it's power.
Let's dispense with all forms of pretense. According to the Ultimate Visual Guide, when Palpatine ascended to the position of Emperor, he was "without financial restraint" and orchestrated "an unprecedented military build up," which ultimately led to the Galactic Empire being "the largest" military machine in galactic history. That means, in terms of armament, personnel, and weapons, it had to outclass not only the Galactic Republic, but the Confederacy of Independent Systems -- which was an insanely massive coalition of commerce guilds -- with infantry numbering in the quadrillions.
...
Think about that for a minute.
Now, in terms of naval capacity, the Empire fielded "more than" twenty five thousand Imperial-class Star Destroyers, and "dozens" of Super Star Destroyers if ex-Imperial Han Solo's estimates are to be believed. This is ignoring other Destroyers of various classes, which have been refitted to suit the Empire's blatant militarism.
Palpatine has at his disposal twelve Grand Admirals, which according to the New Essential Chronology, "only Ackbar" could be said to be their equal in the Rebellion and New Republic. The strategists of the Galactic Alliance would literally shit their collective pants at the notion of dealing with Grand Admiral Thrawn.
...
Originally posted by Gideon
Now think about that for a minute.
The Galactic Alliance and Imperial Remnant each enter this combat scenario with evident disadvantages. First, the Galactic Alliance is currently in negotiations with the Remnant and Confederation; at this point, they are essentially regarded as three coexisting superpowers. What does this mean? The Alliance cannot compete with the Empire in terms of numbers or resources; the Empire's armies control an entire galaxy, at best, the GA controls half of one. The same applies for the Remnant and the Confederation.
The next is to consider that the Galactic Alliance is the heir to the New Republic. In order to divorce itself from Palpatine's blatant militarism, the New Republic was less centralized and militant than the Empire that preceded it. That is why the Yuuzhan Vong considered the New Republic to be along the lines of a rather lame joke. As a government that was founded by what is technically a counterrevolutionary terrorist group, the New Republic/Galactic Alliance/Rebellion must walk an extremely tight rope; they have to maintain a distance from similarities to the Empire. I refer you to the mess that Caedus had to deal with because of the public freaking out about a return to the Empire (a civil war). Such an image means that the Galactic Alliance can't afford to have a Star Destroyer parked in orbit of every inhabited planet.
The bottom line? The Galactic Alliance may have a slight technological disadvantage, but what does it matter? The Empire has it strategically and in terms of manpower. Not to mention that, at this time, the Empire has the resources of the Maw Installation. You remember what Daala did to Caedus's fleet when she "cleaned out the Emperor's closet" in the Maw? And that shit was decades old.
So, really, even the Alliance's slight technological advantage doesn't mean much.
Originally posted by Gideon
Now think about that for a minute.
So, since you're big on discussing psychology and politics, let's look at the facts:
As per Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa Solo's ruminations during the Unification Summit, they realized that the leaders of the three factions -- the Empire, the GA, and the Confederation -- are all Imperial. All of them. Natasi Daala, Turr Phennir, and Jag Fel. The first two were extreme Imperial loyalists and notorious killers. Most importantly (at least Phennir) was pragmatic.
So, here's the situation as I see it.
Daala, Phennir, and Jag all gaze upon the face of their beloved leader backed by an unbelievable amount of artillery, and they decide that democracy and happiness aren't ideals worth dying for, and they hop over to the Empire's side. Jag, who is noble, is left holding the bag until the opportunistic Council of Moffs assassinate him.
And then the whole galaxy is reunited with Palpatine. Sure, there'll be some civil wars and purges, but what's it matter? They won't have anything but sharp sticks, large rocks, and strong language with which to fight.
And Palpatine wins, since he isn't exactly Captain Fairplay or the Chairman of the Galactic Ethical Committee.
In outright war or total campaign, the Empire wins. Period. The end.
Originally posted by Gideon
The bottom line? The Galactic Alliance may have a slight technological disadvantage, but what does it matter?
I'm going to assume that you mean advantage, or that you mean Galactic Empire.
Anyway, I'm NOT arguing in favor of either side, but you do make some good points.
And based on FOTJ, Daala doesn't seem to be all that evil anymore, so I doubt that she'd join Sidious. Outcast even said that she was devastated to hear about the atrocities that Tarkin committed and that her respect for him withered away. Plus, according to Eminence, morale and phycology (sp?) doesn't factor in.
And oh yeah: if according to Eminence morale/politics don't matter, then it can be assumed that everyone in the FOTJ galaxy automatically allies (since it's them vs Empire). So it's not just the GA, it's the GA, Imperial Remnant, Hapans, Confederation, Jedi, One Sith, Lost Sith Tribe, Baran Do, those dudes that Luke/Ben met in Omen (can't remember name), Mind walkers/Mind drinkers/whatever they're called, Jenessari, Hutt Empire, Criminals, and (arguably most importantly) the entire quadrillion citizens of the galaxy, who due to morale not mattering will all take up arms with no fear at all and attack with a quadrillion man force.
Originally posted by HewhoknowsallYour listing of those comparatively feeble institutions adds little to you're argument, seeing as how your very own OP specifically states "united coalition of governments", not a collection of all organizations such as the Jedi and One Sith. The only actual governments here are those first four. And the fact that to win you needed to resort to not only adding those, but you needed to actually add the entire galactic populace...
Please answer my statement instead of swearing and not contributing anything to the discussion. What I said was valid. Prove me wrong.
Excuse me people. I am not a Big Authority or anything here and most of you do not know me but I happen to know a bit about the Empire.
Ok. Let us start using a bit of brains and mixing of what we know.
Stormtroopers only sucked because they were shooting at the HEROS.
Stormtroopers Decimated an Entire Ship full of Rebel Alliance Troopers Ala. Tantive IV.
The Storm Troopers are stated to be the most Deadly and Brilliant army in all of Star Wars. Even Obi-Wan Kenobi Said so.
When It comes to Stormtroopers I take the EU into more Consideration than the Movies. Storm Trooper armor is Highly Protective and many troopers survived due to it. also might I say that the Phase II clone armor of the Clone Wars was stated to be Highly Protective as well...How much better is ST armor then?.
As in the Imperial Navy. Yes the GA has excellent and new ships but Big guns don't win wars. Brains do,
You also have to take into account that you have Pilots such as Merek Steele and Fel (Father of Jagged Fel) during the Height of the Empire and Fel was the equivalent to Wedge Antilles and Steele was the Empire's Luke Skywalker so to speak.
OK so during the GA Ackbar is dead and if my memory serves me so is Garm Bel Iblis. Not even ackbar was as brilliant as Thrawn and the only person who rivaled Thrawn during the war was Mr.Iblis. So during the Time of the GA there is NO ONE who outsmarts Thrawn in naval combat. then you have Tarkin who is pretty much second to Thrawn so the Imps win the Naval Engagements Junkyard or not.
I would also give the Imperials the land battles due to Vader and EU Storm Troopers because we should not take into account OT Storm Troopers because the Heros cant die. so they must miss.
I give it to the Galactic Empire.
I am no Fan Boy of the Empire. Not of their society anyway but I do like their military and I have studied the Empire ALOT and into great depth I believe most of you will agree that what I say is true.
I also know people will try to discredit me saying that I am stupid because I ignore OT Troopers and Go by the EU Troopers...Well sirs then that is a Matter of Preference.
I will look forward to Debating this Further.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Your listing of those comparatively feeble institutions adds little to you're argument, seeing as how your very own OP specifically states "united coalition of governments", not a collection of all organizations such as the Jedi and One Sith. The only actual governments here are those first four. And the fact that to win you needed to resort to not only adding those, but you needed to actually add the entire galactic populace...
Government: A government is the body within an organization that has authority to make and the power to enforce laws, regulations, or rules.
The Jedi is part of the GA
The One Sith has a government, such as being led by the DLOTS and having chains of command
The Lost Sith Tribe have leaders and chains of command
In fact, almost all of them that I listed have some sort of authority.
Anyway, Empire wins space, allies win ground.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Government: A government is the body within an organization that has authority to make and the power to enforce laws, regulations, or rules.The Jedi is part of the GA
The One Sith has a government, such as being led by the DLOTS and having chains of command
The Lost Sith Tribe have leaders and chains of command
In fact, almost all of them that I listed have some sort of authority.Anyway, Empire wins space, allies win ground.
Originally posted by Gideon
...the Empire wins. Period. The end.
Originally posted by mattatom
Ofcourse If they win space they will glass the ground so there will be no need for any ground battles so as Gideon said before me.
That's like saying if you have air superiority then you just bomb the ground so no need for ground battles sure air superiority/space superiority is very important but isn't everything.
Anyway, if this were made into a series then obviously the good guys (galaxy) will win. Or Luke could just kill the Emperor again and then the Empire fractures again.