Revan strengths

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Force knowledge=force power. I've given examples of individuals. Give it up.

If knowledge = power, how come vader and galens command of the force vastly surpasses that of other scholars? [/B]

I wouldn't say it's absolute at all. Raw force abilities play a HUGE role. However, once someone gains significant force knowledge, their powers increase. I believe this was confirmed in PoD. Bane's force abilities grew exponentially with his study of the ancients, rather than learning in the Academy. Jacen's powers grew exponentially after he returned from his 5 year sabbatical. Nadd's powers grew after he learned from Adas' holocron as well as Naga Sadow..

Yeah except everyone you mentioned were already strong in the force, and had a talent for the more martial persuits of the Jedi and Sith arts.

Unless you're going to assume all force knowledge translate to greater martial or physical prowess you have no point.

"War does not make one great." - Yoda. Your assumptions are that destructive capability is a reflection of force knowledge, when it is not.

Maul defeated Anoon Bondara who was far more experienced, a more knowledgable weapons master. Anakin defeated Dooku, who was one of the greatest jedi masters in history.

Talent is the major deciding factor.

Let's look at this further. Tionne is one of the most knowledgable Jedi in the NJO yet she's no force monster. She just has an inclination for study, for the persuit of greater knowledge. Even Luke acknowledges her capacity for learning and gathering knowledge.

Just because her martial talents are not awesome doesn't mean she doesn't possess great knowledge of the force.

The same for librarians, they were in charge of putting information into the archives for benefit of all the Jedi present and future, they obviously had to know what information was being input into the archives for the purposes of ensuring the accuracy of their information, that's just the responsible thing to do.

More than that they would revise previous infromation if for example new information was found, better techniques were developed etc etc

they obviously had to know what information was being input into the archives for the purposes of ensuring the accuracy of their information, that's just the responsible thing to do.

No.

You have a nearly infinite pile of things to catalogue. I put a tablet into your hands and tell you to put it on shelf Ab302.7C.7 and then get back here on the double.

Do you stop and read it?

Do you study it?

Do you interact with the gatekeeper?

Yes? Then you just got reprimanded for wasting time.

No? Then you haven't learned anything except where a source of some unspecified knowledge is.

That is what the librarians knew. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
[b]No.

You have a nearly infinite pile of things to catalogue. I put a tablet into your hands and tell you to put it on shelf Ab302.7C.7 and then get back here on the double.

Do you stop and read it?

Do you study it?

Do you interact with the gatekeeper?

Yes? Then you just got reprimanded for wasting time.

No? Then you haven't learned anything except where a source of some unspecified knowledge is.

That is what the librarians knew. Nothing more. [/B]

Too bad these were Jedi librarians. The responsibility for the compilation of accurate galaxy maps, jedi holos etc fell under their custody, generations of librarians.

No historian/archeologist/scholar is going to just catalog info and not look to see if the info was in anyway accurate to the subject matter.

As far as cataloging is concerned, I'm sure the junior librarians wouldn't need to read a lick of what was put into the archives.

But the more senior analysts would likely have to, it's called "taking care of your institutions education" - it would be the freaking responsible thing to do.

Nuff said.

Being a scholar Jedi doesn't preclude great martial abilities. And please stop taking my argument as if I was assuming absolutes.

I didn't mention "all" or "most" or even "many" in any of my statements, I was talking about Jedi scholars/historians/archaeologists throughout the millenia of the Jedi's history.

These people would commonly end up as librarians of the Jedi archives, as there studies gave them the authority to supervise over the knowledge base of the Jedi order.

I've yet to see a rational argument that counters my stance outside of assumptions that "all" Jedi librarians merely catalogued and never studied the archives.

Originally posted by Allankles
Being a scholar Jedi doesn't preclude great martial abilities. And please stop taking my argument as if I was assuming absolutes.

I didn't mention "all" or "most" or even "many" in any of my statements, I was talking about Jedi scholars/historians/archaeologists throughout the millenia of the Jedi's history.

These people would commonly end up as librarians of the Jedi archives, as there studies gave them the authority to supervise over the knowledge base of the Jedi order.

I've yet to see a rational argument that counters my stance outside of assumptions that "all" Jedi librarians merely catalogued and never studied the archives.

Of course YOU have yet to see a rational argument. That doesn't mean one hasn't already been made to destroy yours.

hmm I would think that we've been over this many many many times already... and I thought Revan was an unknown. I haven't really read this thread yet so yeah.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Of course YOU have yet to see a rational argument. That doesn't mean one hasn't already been made to destroy yours.

Nah. Let's review: "Librarians merely catalogued they never read any of the holobooks and holocrons they were in charge of" - your argument.

You were reasoning in absolutes, you lost by default. I was reasoning with common sense, that a scholar/historian/archaeologist/all-round Jedi book worm, would have come across far more knowledge than a war lord, is a rational conclusion.

The premise is founded on common sense, yours is just bs, arguing over something that can't be proved outside of simple logical reasoning, there's nothing to support your premise besides wishful thinking.

I appealed to common sense, there was nothing to argue about without solid information on all parties, and lucas arts is not obliged to provide such fiction.

Originally posted by Allankles
Nah. Let's review: "Librarians merely catalogued they never read any of the holobooks and holocrons they were in charge of" - your argument.

You were reasoning in absolutes, you lost by default. I was reasoning with common sense, that a scholar/historian/archaeologist/all-round Jedi book worm, would have come across far more knowledge than a war lord, is a rational conclusion.

The premise is founded on common sense, yours is just bs, arguing over something that can't be proved outside of simple logical reasoning, there's nothing to support your premise besides wishful thinking.

I appealed to common sense, there was nothing to argue about without solid information on all parties, and lucas arts is not obliged to provide such fiction.

Actually you didn't appeal to common sense. You back peddled and claimed "that's not what I meant". My librarian analogy destroyed your entire argument.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Actually you didn't appeal to common sense. You back peddled and claimed "that's not what I meant". My librarian analogy destroyed your entire argument.

How is it not appealing to common sense to say that a career Jedi historian/archaeologist/scholar/ bookworm has likely studied more about the jedi arts, and related subjects, than a war lord/ex jedi knight who had 1 or 2 years studying sith holocrons in the middle of leading a war effort?

The only thing I objected was your claim that I used words like "all" or "most" in regards to the number of librarians having superior knowledge.

I only stated that the multitude of librarians through the 20000+ years of the jedi's history, would rationally have come across more knowledge than Revan. "Multitude" is ambiguous, it just calls to attention the absurdity of your initial claim about Revan's force knowledge.

Originally posted by Allankles
lol. Revan's schorlarly persuits were admirable but they're just that, schorlarly persuits (that's even if we assume he learned anything of note from whatever he took). Jedi librarians throughout history pwn him in terms of knowledge, but no one will assume they're more powerful based on such a premise.

I'm sure Jocasta Nu's (sp?) force knowledge outstripped many of her peers in the prequel era Jedi council, but it doesn't mean too much, does it?

This was your assertion. You asserted that just because Jedi are librarians, their knowledge MUST eclipse Revan's. It doesn't matter whether you said "all" or "some". The fact that you said their knowledge eclipses Revan's BECAUSE they're librarians is what prompted me to destroy your piss poor argument with my analogy.

Originally posted by Allankles
Nah. Let's review: "Librarians merely catalogued they never read any of the holobooks and holocrons they were in charge of" - your argument.

You were reasoning in absolutes, you lost by default. I was reasoning with common sense, that a scholar/historian/archaeologist/all-round Jedi book worm, would have come across far more knowledge than a war lord, is a rational conclusion.

The premise is founded on common sense, yours is just bs, arguing over something that can't be proved outside of simple logical reasoning, there's nothing to support your premise besides wishful thinking.

I appealed to common sense, there was nothing to argue about without solid information on all parties, and lucas arts is not obliged to provide such fiction.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
So what your saying that knowledge isn't that much unless the individual has substantial force potential or raw power?

me KNOWING how to play golf, by reading books about it doesn't translate into a skillful golf game until i put it into practice and practice for hours and hours.

Knowledge is good, but requires both comprehension, and practice.
knowledge without practice of the skill makes you book smart.

How many times does a calculus professor screw up simple math after doing the difficult part of the problem (a lot)

Those who teach, cannot do.

Hmm, guess you pretty much answered it for me.

Do you know that DS made a claim that andeddu > TFU vader because "z0mg h3 h@s M0r3 kn0wl3dge th@N V@d3r!!!1!one"?

really? you know DS. all talk, and no substantiation. Nothing new. Moving on.

frusty

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Hmm, guess you pretty much answered it for me.

Do you know that DS made a claim that andeddu > TFU vader because "z0mg h3 h@s M0r3 kn0wl3dge th@N V@d3r!!!1!one"?

Wait what? No I didn't?

Originally posted by truejedi
really? you know DS. all talk, and no substantiation. Nothing new. Moving on.

frusty

As usual TJ is bitter about getting his ass kicked. It's too bad he can't debate.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Wait what? No I didn't?

Show me.