Revan strengths

I'd like to note that while the proof of a negative is impossible, the challenge stands because the series of events in question is at least as likely, based on available evidence, as any other.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Two weeks isn't that old. I have seen debates continuing in far older threads. If you believe that Revan was more powerful, you should have sticked to that notion instead of bringing mines and grenades in to the equation. Sounds like you wanted some attention.

Sounds like I wanted some attention? No, the annoying thing is that I've been over this before and now have to try and explain it again.

And Malak was allowing Revan to hurl grenades at him? What about his Force moves?

There is a difference between logical deduction and fact. Logical deduction allows you to think that he wouldn't use grenades against Malak. Fact says that because it's in the gameplay and it can't be disproven, Revan was able to use grenades.

Malak wasn't missing some of his body parts in Qel Droma's vision and neither in the final cutscene in KOTOR game. Explosives can do lots of damage to human bodies. Just think about it.

He didn't have to be visibily damaged to be weakened, who knows, maybe uber charismatic Revan weakened his mental state by talking him down, like for example telling him stuff from the past.

Proof? That vision reveals to us that a lightsaber duel took place between the two. Now I know that the fight is open to speculation and we need more details but the mines and grenades theory is simply absurd.

I really don't know what's so complicated to understand. I already told you that a lightsaber duel may have taken place, but how and what other factors were involved, we don't know. You're right here though, the fight is open to speculation and we need more details. Speculation =/= canon.

What is hard for me to accept: illogical assumptions or proper logical deductions and facts?

Like I said, logical deduction isn't the same as fact. Fact is, Revan defeating Malak on the Star Forge. Logical deduction is, it was probably a fair fight. That doesn't make it a fact though.

@ Red Nemesis

Using unorthodox methods is a possibility but one may steep to such a level in a scenario where the opponent is too powerful to be challenged head on in a fair duel.

Lets look at a few logical examples:

1. Suppose that the opponent is Luke or Sidious or as powerful. I can imagine Revan using unorthodox means against such potential foes because they might be too powerful for him to challenge head on by fair means. However if he can handle lets say the likes of Dooku, Vader, and Malak, why would he need to use unorthodox methods against them?

2. When Revan encountered a Rancor in Taris, it seems probable to assume that he might have used firearms and explosives to take it down because at that time, he was unable to utilize his vast strength in the force against the creature. However once he reached Lehon to deactivate the shield protecting the Star Forge, he was likely by that time skilled and powerful enough in the applications of the force to take down the Rancors on the planet using the Force.

I am not against assuming things, but they shouldn't be devoid of logics.

Originally posted by truejedi
this is ridiculous. This revan thing has been hashed and rehashed, and never can anyone prove that revan didn't use mines!! and mines are easy to use, if one is sssstealthy!

What is ridiculous is the fact that you are sticking with the grenades and mine theory. It can’t be proven even though Revan is conversing with Malak before Malak dies and Malak is not shown to be in agonizing pain. Prove that someone as powerful as Malak can be hit with a grenade or mine by another force user. Especially when Malak prepared the environment for himself and to defeat Revan.

Perhaps if you could provide some examples where two Jedi or Sith fought and use grenades or mines when fighting each other.

It would be more logical to state that we do not know how the long the fight was, if it was mostly force related, saber combat or perhaps a good combination of both. Since Malak knew force choke, drain, and lightning, to name a few one would have to think that Revan would have had to know a defense against those techniques since one of them could have killed him immediately.

Originally posted by Kotor3
What is ridiculous is the fact that you are sticking with the grenades and mine theory. It can’t be proven even though Revan is conversing with Malak before Malak dies and Malak is not shown to be in agonizing pain. Prove that someone as powerful as Malak can be hit with a grenade or mine by another force user. Especially when Malak prepared the environment for himself and to defeat Revan.

Perhaps if you could provide some examples where two Jedi or Sith fought and use grenades or mines when fighting each other.

It would be more logical to state that we do not know how the long the fight was, if it was mostly force related, saber combat or perhaps a good combination of both. Since Malak knew force choke, drain, and lightning, to name a few one would have to think that Revan would have had to know a defense against those techniques since one of them could have killed him immediately.

I don't know why it's so hard to get, the grenades and mines theory isn't that complicated. The grenades and mines theory isn't that Revan probably used mines or grenades to weaken Malak. See, it's not likely that Revan used them, but the option that he did, exists.

And what, Malak is not shown to be in agonizing pain? That's a lousy argument.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I don't know why it's so hard to get, the grenades and mines theory isn't that complicated. The grenades and mines theory isn't that Revan probably used mines or grenades to weaken Malak. See, it's not likely that Revan used them, but the option that he did, exists.

What is hard to get is how you and others use the lousy grenade and mine theory as an argument to state that the fight against Malak cannot be used as a feat or gauge on Revan’s powers. Since you have a Jedi and a Sith it is logical to state that the fight involved two weapons that we know them to use, the force and a lightsaber. Why are you adding more?

If the option existed that would mean that Revan mostly like carried these items with him as he battle dark jedi and droids. Let us not forget the many traps Malak set for Revan including the environment in which he fought Malak that was built for Malak to win. Now we would have to prove that Malak could be hit with a grenade or mine from a force user. Not to mention what Malak did on the leviathan clearly shows that throwing or shooting something at him and hitting him with it is in no way or fashion going to be easy if not impossible.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
And what, Malak is not shown to be in agonizing pain? That's a lousy argument.

I agree, Qel-Droma's vision shows us a Malak who isn't blown to bits,

But until something comes along that says Revan didn't shoot Malak in the leg at one point... the ambiguity remains.

Originally posted by Kotor3
[B]What is hard to get is how you and others use the lousy grenade and mine theory as an argument to state that the fight against Malak cannot be used as a feat or gauge on Revan’s powers. Since you have a Jedi and a Sith it is logical to state that the fight involved two weapons that we know them to use, the force and a lightsaber. Why are you adding more?

because my revan wasnt stupid enough to rely on only his lightsaber and the force... in fact he was more resourceful then strong. 🙂

My revan didn't use a melee weapon either.
its not that hard to understand. Did we see a lightsaber wound on Malak either? No. So the "he wasn't blown to bits" argument is lousy.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Sounds like I wanted some attention? No, the annoying thing is that I've been over this before and now have to try and explain it again.

There is a difference between logical deduction and fact. Logical deduction allows you to think that he wouldn't use grenades against Malak. Fact says that because it's in the gameplay and it can't be disproven, Revan was able to use grenades.

I cannot believe you are accepting the game's mechanics as cannon. People with no armor there can get shot 50 times point blank range with a blaster rifle and survive. They can be stabbed countless times with a lightsaber and not fall, and they can be choked on end without dieing. It's a total BS argument.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
He didn't have to be visibily damaged to be weakened, who knows, maybe uber charismatic Revan weakened his mental state by talking him down, like for example telling him stuff from the past.

Visibly damaged? You've changed your theory now. Just stick with one. Do you honestly think that someone who was showered with grenades and stepped on frag mines could possibly be in one piece? Jedi can die through conventional means, not just from sabers and the force.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I really don't know what's so complicated to understand. I already told you that a lightsaber duel may have taken place, but how and what other factors were involved, we don't know. You're right here though, the fight is open to speculation and we need more details. Speculation =/= canon.

What's your solution? Record the battle on the Star Forge, then post it here so that this can be over? There can be no winner in this debate because there is no STRICT cannon, Revan could choose any weapon at his disposal to defeat Malak. He could have won with a rubber chicken. Just because there is nothing to disprove my theory, does that make it false? Or true? Neither, because there's no cannon. If you choose to base your argument on "It's not NOT true!", then by all means go ahead. But what purpose would that serve?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Like I said, logical deduction isn't the same as fact. Fact is, Revan defeating Malak on the Star Forge. Logical deduction is, it was probably a fair fight. That doesn't make it a fact though.

Prove it.

AID, you just so completely contradicted yourself i can't stop myself:

behold:

People with no armor there can get shot 50 times point blank range with a blaster rifle and survive. They can be stabbed countless times with a lightsaber and not fall, and they can be choked on end without dieing.

then

Do you honestly think that someone who was showered with grenades and stepped on frag mines could possibly be in one piece? Jedi can die through conventional means, not just from sabers and the force.

But seriously why the heck are you attacking slash? He's on OUR side?

I was referring to his theory about grenades and mines, because the mechanics of the game are shit, and wouldn't work in real-time. Just to clarify: there is no cannon. It doesn't mean he's wrong, but it also doesn't mean I'm wrong about his BS theory.

He's on OUR side? I just think the use of grenades and mines is shit due to how the combat system works and since there is no proof to back him up. So, there are SIDES?

Originally posted by *ApathyIsDeath*
.

What's your solution? Record the battle on the Star Forge, then post it here so that this can be over? There can be no winner in this debate because there is no STRICT cannon, Revan could choose any weapon at his disposal to defeat Malak. He could have won with a rubber chicken. Just because there is nothing to disprove my theory, does that make it false? Or true? Neither, because there's no cannon. If you choose to base your argument on "It's not NOT true!", then by all means go ahead. But what purpose would that serve?

because you said this, and that is exactly the point of those of us who say u cant use revan in combat.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
because my revan wasnt stupid enough to rely on only his lightsaber and the force... in fact he was more resourceful then strong. 🙂

That is the problem, we are not discussing your made up video game character Revan. We are discussing the recognize canon character Revan. Revan a jedi fought sith lord Malak on the star forge (canon). Now I will ask again, any examples of Jedi and Sith fighting each other with grenades and mines? If not then the whole concept of saying that such weapons could have been used should be dropped. Speculations should at least have some bases to stand on.

Originally posted by truejedi
because you said this, and that is exactly the point of those of us who say u cant use revan in combat.

Again, I was referring to the grenade idea.

Originally posted by Kotor3
That is the problem, we are not discussing your made up video game character Revan. We are discussing the recognize canon character Revan. Revan a jedi fought sith lord Malak on the star forge (canon). Now I will ask again, any examples of Jedi and Sith fighting each other with grenades and mines? If not then the whole concept of saying that such weapons could have been used should be dropped. Speculations should at least have some bases to stand on.

NOTHING is known about that fight between Malak and Revan. NOTHING is known of Revan and Malak's actual powers. You people need to accept this and continue waiting like the rest of us.

Are you freakin' kidding me! Srsly, first read every post of mine and comprehend them, because I hate repeating myself.

Originally posted by *ApathyIsDeath*
I cannot believe you are accepting the game's mechanics as cannon. People with no armor there can get shot 50 times point blank range with a blaster rifle and survive. They can be stabbed countless times with a lightsaber and not fall, and they can be choked on end without dieing. It's a total BS argument.

What are you on about? You don't even know what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that we can't use the fight between Malak and Revan as a fair win, because the fight isn't shown anywhere except in the game, where you could use grenades, mines, blasters and anything else gameplay.

Show where I said the game's mechanics are canon (not cannon).

Visibly damaged? You've changed your theory now. Just stick with one. Do you honestly think that someone who was showered with grenades and stepped on frag mines could possibly be in one piece? Jedi can die through conventional means, not just from sabers and the force.

So this was a response to: "He didn't have to be visibily damaged to be weakened, who knows, maybe uber charismatic Revan weakened his mental state by talking him down, like for example telling him stuff from the past."

Again you don't even know my theory, how can you even say that I've changed it then. I'm giving examples of how the fight could have gone instead of just a lightsaber duel. And I'm still waiting for someone to give me 'facts' to prove that it was a fair and square duel. (And by facts, I don't mean logical deduction).

What's your solution? Record the battle on the Star Forge, then post it here so that this can be over? There can be no winner in this debate because there is no STRICT cannon, Revan could choose any weapon at his disposal to defeat Malak. He could have won with a rubber chicken. Just because there is nothing to disprove my theory, does that make it false? Or true? Neither, because there's no cannon. If you choose to base your argument on "It's not NOT true!", then by all means go ahead. But what purpose would that serve?

Why are you telling me this. This is exactly what I've been saying. Again, read and comprehend. And definately don't attack me when you're actually agreeing with me.

Prove it.

Prove what?

Originally posted by Kotor3
What is hard to get is how you and others use the lousy grenade and mine theory as an argument to state that the fight against Malak cannot be used as a feat or gauge on Revan’s powers. Since you have a Jedi and a Sith it is logical to state that the fight involved two weapons that we know them to use, the force and a lightsaber. Why are you adding more?

It's logical, but not a fact (there is a chance the fight wasn't logical), therefore it can't be used as a feat or gauge on Revan's powers.

If the option existed that would mean that Revan mostly like carried these items with him as he battle dark jedi and droids. Let us not forget the many traps Malak set for Revan including the environment in which he fought Malak that was built for Malak to win. Now we would have to prove that Malak could be hit with a grenade or mine from a force user. Not to mention what Malak did on the leviathan clearly shows that throwing or shooting something at him and hitting him with it is in no way or fashion going to be easy if not impossible.

Yeah, there is a chance that Revan carried these items with him as he battled the Dark Jedi and the droid. What's your point?

Yes, as lousy as your statement that grenades and mines are a option that exist as weapons used in the battle between Revan and Malak.

The duel in the game is the only real reference we have towards the duel, hence grenades and mines are options.

Originally posted by *ApathyIsDeath*
I was referring to his theory about grenades and mines, because the mechanics of the game are shit, and wouldn't work in real-time. Just to clarify: [b]there is no cannon. It doesn't mean he's wrong, but it also doesn't mean I'm wrong about his BS theory.

He's on OUR side? I just think the use of grenades and mines is shit due to how the combat system works and since there is no proof to back him up. So, there are SIDES? [/B]

You call a theory you don't even know BS? That's really clever.

Here's my theory:

I'm saying that we can't use the fight between Malak and Revan as a fair win, because the fight isn't shown anywhere except in the game, where you could use grenades, mines, blasters and anything else gameplay.

And stop misspelling canon, it's embarrassing.