Originally posted by Incanus
Nihilus just uses insta-kill and he is the only one left alive(sort of). The proof that it works on jedi masters is a planet named Katarr. Check out its history if ya want it.
the "insta" part is the problem most of us have a problem with. Ritual? blockable? Were any of those Jedi anywhere close to the combatants in this fight? Sadly, we just can't tell. Honestly, perhaps every Jedi on that planet sucked horribly. Perhaps TPM Kenobi would have survived the attack.
Come to think of it, Visas (sp?) survived it. She claimed it was because Nihilus wanted her to, but maybe it was because she was the only one strong enough in the force to survive. She was a kid, she wouldn't have known the difference.
truejediYou're grasping at straws.
the "insta" part is the problem most of us have a problem with. Ritual? blockable? Were any of those Jedi anywhere close to the combatants in this fight? Sadly, we just can't tell. Honestly, perhaps every Jedi on that planet sucked horribly. Perhaps TPM Kenobi would have survived the attack.Come to think of it, Visas (sp?) survived it. She claimed it was because Nihilus wanted her to, but maybe it was because she was the only one strong enough in the force to survive. She was a kid, she wouldn't have known the difference.
the "insta" part is the problem most of us have a problem with. Ritual?
blockable? Were any of those Jedi anywhere close to the combatants in this fight? Sadly, we just can't tell. Honestly, perhaps every Jedi on that planet sucked horribly. Perhaps TPM Kenobi would have survived the attack.
I can't speak to the rest of it.
First off... I don't mean to sound like a hardass. I'm tired and about to go to sleep, so if I seem offensive at any point please don't take it personally.
*cough*Jackass.*cough*
truejedi
I'm grasping at straws? I think i'm being logical.
truejediGrasping at straws, not to mention outright denying Visas' own confession that she was "spared." Arguing character fallibility has no merit here.
Ritual? blockable?... Honestly, perhaps every Jedi on that planet sucked horribly. Perhaps TPM Kenobi would have survived the attack.Come to think of it, Visas (sp?) survived it. She claimed it was because Nihilus wanted her to, but maybe it was because she was the only one strong enough in the force to survive. She was a kid, she wouldn't have known the difference.
truejediKatarr. Visas says that Nihilus "spoke" and an entire planet's worth of Force-sensitives and an enclave of Jedi that included Master Vandar is destroyed. No indication of preparation or ritual. The Ravager. After freezing the attacking trio in place with nothing more than a wave of his hand, Nihilus attempts to "feed" on the Exile. For obvious reasons, he fails, but the very fact that he made the attempt indicates that, under ordinary circumstances, he is entirely capable of using the ability on a small scale and without pause.
You prove to me that Nihilus had the ability to instantly kill a quality Jedi, and I"ll take back the previous post.
On a somewhat deviatory note, on Malachor he reduces Darth Traya's command of the Force to levels below those of an upside down, frozen, lacerated, and likely concussed ESB Luke Skywalker, again with nothing more than a wave of his hand.
I think my stance is a little more logical than yours.
This is not, of course, to advocate Nihilus' use in Versus threads.
Originally posted by Eminence*cough*Jackass.*cough*Grasping at straws, not to mention outright denying Visas' own confession that she was "spared." Arguing character fallibility has no merit here.
Katarr. Visas says that Nihilus "spoke" and an entire planet's worth of Force-sensitives and an enclave of Jedi that included Master Vandar is destroyed. No indication of preparation or ritual. The Ravager. After freezing the attacking trio in place with nothing more than a wave of his hand, Nihilus attempts to "feed" on the Exile. For obvious reasons, he fails, but the very fact that he made the attempt indicates that, under ordinary circumstances, he is entirely capable of using the ability on a small scale and without pause.
On a somewhat deviatory note, on Malachor he reduces Darth Traya's command of the Force to levels below those of an upside down, frozen, lacerated, and likely concussed ESB Luke Skywalker, again with nothing more than a wave of his hand.
I think my stance is a little more logical than yours.
This is not, of course, to advocate Nihilus' use in Versus threads.
it sounds very much like you are advocating Nihilus's use in Versus threads.
i think arguing character fallibility has much merit, here or anywhere. Just to use the one that is still fresh from the other thread, Dooku thought he was in control of his duel with Kenobi and Anakin until he realized he had been tricked.
Characters are fallible. With Visas we are talking about a child who wasn't with Nihilus when he did what he did. Anything he told her after that would be gospel to her. She is about as fallible a character as possible.
Even if Visas is correct:
Speaking doesn't mean much really either. Tarkin spoke, Alderaan died, but there were extenuating circumstances that very much could apply in this situation.
And lastly, my point remains, would Nihilus be able to pull of this attack on a top tier Jedi? You hardly proved that. You really can't, i don't fault you for it, as no proven top-tier Jedi existed in KOTOR 2.
Seems as though if the Jedi order did nothing else for the next 2 thousand years, they would probably spend it finding away to block THAT particular attack.
truejediI'm not. I'm pointing out gaps in logic.
it sounds very much like you are advocating Nihilus's use in Versus threads.
truejediThe situations aren't even remotely comparable, TJ. Anakin and Obi-Wan were intentionally deceiving Dooku for about ten seconds; this deception is not only stated outright in the novelization, but corroborated by one of the visual guides. You're suggesting runs completely against both established canon and logic.
i think arguing character fallibility has much merit, here or anywhere. Just to use the one that is still fresh from the other thread, Dooku thought he was in control of his duel with Kenobi and Anakin until he realized he had been tricked.
truejediYou're making her out to be an idiot whose own observation is entirely wrong just so that you can have a semblance of something to work off of in suggesting that Nihilus' attack is notably flawed. Hence, grasping at straws.
Characters are fallible. With Visas we are talking about a child who wasn't with Nihilus when he did what he did. Anything he told her after that would be gospel to her. She is about as fallible a character as possible.
She, a random Force-sensitive woman on an entire planet's worth of Force-sensitives, manages to survive an attack in the Force that destroys everything that touches the Force, tears flesh from bone, and levels cities. Your theory is that she is stronger than any of the almost one hundred Jedi present, including at least three members of the Jedi Council.
There is no indication of this whatsoever. Ignoring the fact that she said she was spared, that she even comes to understand that Nihilus had his own perverse reasons for sparing her and tearing out the flesh of her eye sockets, Visas never demonstrates any remarkable ability in the Force at all. Nihilus humiliates her with some regularity; Force choke while she serves him, put in stasis on the Ravager when she challenges him. And your argument against all of this is simply that she's "a child."
The only scenario that could validate this would be Zannah surviving the thought bomb on Ruusan. But there, we have the girl blowing hands off, snapping Jedi necks, and being affirmed to have a remarkable connection to the Force, not to mention no indication whatsoever that the Sith Lords intentionally left her alive.
truejediSilly me, I forgot Tarkin was that Sith Lord guy who used that massive weapons station that took two decades to complete as a cover for his giant planet-busting eye lasers.
Even if Visas is correct:
Speaking doesn't mean much really either. Tarkin spoke, Alderaan died, but there were extenuating circumstances that very much could apply in this situation.
truejediI never tried to prove it. Quality Jedi =/= top-tier Jedi.
And lastly, my point remains, would Nihilus be able to pull of this attack on a top tier Jedi? You hardly proved that. You really can't, i don't fault you for it, as no proven top-tier Jedi existed in KOTOR 2.
truejedi
Come to think of it, Visas (sp?) survived it. She claimed it was because Nihilus wanted her to, but maybe it was because she was the only one strong enough in the force to survive. She was a kid, she wouldn't have known the difference.
So, in the four-five years between KotOR and TSL, she's grown from a child to a fully-developed woman? That's logical, yes it is.
truejedi
And lastly, my point remains, would Nihilus be able to pull of this attack on a top tier Jedi? You hardly proved that. You really can't, i don't fault you for it, as no proven top-tier Jedi existed in KOTOR 2.
I'd say that if one can turn a planet with a healthy life of flora to a wasteland, I'd say the same one can do the same to one single person.
Nihilus was a wound in the Force. He consumed the life force of anything that was in his proximity if he wished to. I mean - doesn't Tobin look a bit scary when you meet him aboard the Ravager?
His power far exceeds that of the Exile - originally, you were supposed to sacrifice Visas to weaken him and then kill him, but, as many other parts of the game, it was cut because of time limits.
As for the original purpose of this thread, not enough is known about Revan, especially not after his amnesia, to use him in versus, and is Nihilus so strong that it's just silly to use him, and except for his extreme force powers, he hasn't got any particular feats that we can confirm.
That leaves Vader, who got beaten by two of them and would most certainly get beaten by the third.
Originally posted by Eminence
Actually, only a year passes between the events of Unseen, Unheard and the beginning of KOTORII.
Unheard? Is that a comic? Either way, i didn't realize it was just a year. I withdraw the visas fallibility bit then. Thanks for that info. As an adult, she would know why she survived.