Starkiller and Darth Caedus Vs. Orbalisk Bane and Exar Kun

Started by Eminence4 pages

chilled monkey
Except for the fact that Kun is not unknown AT ALL seeing as he has numerous feats to his name.
So does Revan.

The problem lies in substantiating the value of many of those feats relative to what we see in the rest of the saga. He defeated Vodo in a duel. Terrific.

How capable a duelist was Vodo?

He stalemated Qel-Droma in a duel. Terrific.

How capable a duelist was Qel-Droma?

I myself have historically been one of Kun's most consistent supporters, but in regards primarily to his skill with a lightsaber there simply isn't anything contextual to work off of. He wielded what was at the time a unique lightsaber, modifying or creating a style around its use; many take this and attribute to him a Mace Windu-class ability with the lightsaber. But quite contrary to Windu and his Vaapad - which have been tested against not only multiple opponents using multiple fighting styles but some of the very best of opponents the mythos have to offer - we can't actually effectively gauge how efficient Kun's style would have been against opponents other than Vodo in the grand scheme of things.

Even the accolades he receives are dubious when looked at as part of a bigger picture. Kun and Qel-Droma are both noted in the narration of The Sith War to be "master swordsmen." One might take this and immediately throw both of them up there with Kenobi and Skywalker. Then of course, we point out that in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, the Jedi Knight Roan Shryne is granted similar praise, deemed a "master of the sword."

Roan Shryne proves unable to defeat a neophyte Darth Vader.

Then there is the crucial question of his speed in combat. Put simply, how fast can he move relative to others in the saga? A debate with Lightsnake a few months ago brought up again the idea of upper-tier Force-users simply dodging the Force-blasts Kun is so well-known for and blitzing him to take the fight to close quarters. I initially opposed this argument, but looking into it now it makes sense. There has never been the slightest indication that Kun can keep up with the speed demons like Bane, Mace Windu, Yoda, all of whom he is often pitted against. We have, to my knowledge, no way of even confidently placing him in any vague tier.

I will recant my request that someone substantiate the depth of his studies; that appears to be one field that, upon further investigation, has been sufficiently explained. To be clear, the size of his arsenal of techniques is not in question. But until someone can explain to me how 1) his dueling ability can be quantified or 2) his command of the Force can be put into perspective, I can't see a reason to use him in a standard versus thread.

^That sums it up.. No need for me to intervene.

Edit: ERR the blade wasn't unique, he created it with the help of a holocron "possibly created by the exiles".

I myself

Yer tryin too hard m8

Ok I can't help myself, I must intervene.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
[B]You do know, don't you, that Bane won that fight only by using the Force to collapse a stone temple on top of Kas'im (and was only able to do that because Kas'im stopped fighting to make a little speech). Bane admitted he couldn't win blade-to-blade.

You DO know that Bane was pushing Kas'im back until Kas'im had no option other than using a style Bane was unfamiliar with? In less than 2 years, Bane went from never holding a lightsaber to taking it to the greatest duelist in the galaxy. Score 1 for Bane.

He studied Sith lore and learned how to use Sith Sorcery and alchemy. That makes him a scholar.

No it doesn't. Everything he learned, he learned in 6 months time. Bane was a scholar, Nadd was a scholar, Caedus was a scholar. Guys that delved deep into force knowledge for long periods of time.

Big deal. It still affected thousands of 'mundane' beings. Could Bane do that? Nope.

That's irrelevant seeing as how it was a "sith spell". Could Kun use a force wave to the degree that Bane has, killing everything in sight? Can Kun do the same with force lightning?

"drained the life-force of an enslaved race. Mentally influenced Kyp Durron across millions of light years, was able to observe events in distant star systems while supposedly trapped inside a temple etc"

Interesting how you completely ignore these.


I "ignore' this because it was a sith ritual. That's like saying Revan was a force God because he knew how to create the thought bomb.

Red Nemesis
Yer tryin too hard m8
I almost edited, but then Google said "no."

Flaunt your Nazi tendencies elsewhere.

What do ya know? Still though, it is used by those trying too hard. It is only coincidental (apparently) that trying too hard so often coincides with being wrong.

My bad.

Note: Wikipedia calls this an intensive pronoun and sequesters it within an apostrophe. (Inside commas)

Red Nemesis
What do ya know? Still though, it is used by those trying too hard. It is only coincidental (apparently) that trying too hard so often coincides with being wrong.
No.

Red Nemesis
My bad.
Indeed.

.

Wasn't exar kun described by the SW encyclopedia to be once the most powerful of the dark lords of the sith?

I am aware of the word "once" but then again who were the other dark lords of his era? I think it possibly referring to the dark lords that predate or some that precede him.

no

Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia:

"Exar Kun Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the Rise of the Empire. Killed by an overwhelming force of Jedi, the dark spirit of Exar Kun survived across the vastness of time to challenge Luke Skywalker and a new group of Jedi trainees."

Wolverine
Wasn't exar kun described by the SW encyclopedia to be once the most powerful of the dark lords of the sith?

I am aware of the word "once" but then again who were the other dark lords of his era? I think it possibly referring to the dark lords that predate or some that precede him.

If someone wants to use the line to build a case for him I'll discuss it, but the ambiguity is annoying. I honestly don't even want to talk about it. 😐

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia:

"Exar Kun Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the Rise of the Empire. Killed by an overwhelming force of Jedi, the dark spirit of Exar Kun survived across the vastness of time to challenge Luke Skywalker and a new group of Jedi trainees."

Oh interesting. Congratulations to Kun. I bet the same thing can be set about 5-10 other DLOTS..

Originally posted by Eminence
If someone wants to use the line to build a case for him I'll discuss it, but the ambiguity is annoying. I honestly don't even want to talk about it. 😐
I sure as hell don't want to build a case for kun. I am by no means a pro-kun person like advent or IKC .

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Oh interesting. Congratulations to Kun. I bet the same thing can be set about 5-10 other DLOTS..
Quote then name em list em.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
I sure as hell don't want to build a case for kun. I am by no means a pro-kun person like advent or IKC .

Quote then name em list em.

Ragnos
Revan
Bane
Vader
Caedus

And that's just on top of my head. Being "one" of the most powerful doesn't matter. I would always argue that Nadd was more powerful than either Bane or Kun for my own reasons and that Revan's force knowledge exceeded all of those I mentioned.

I want the exact quotes. I recall caedus being called "ONE of the" not "the" like kun.

Kun was called once the most powerful of "THE" dark lords meaning he did surpass the dark lords before him(ajunta, tulak, ragnos etc etc) seeing that he was the only dark lord in his era.

Am i arguing kun > caedus bane or palpatine? Thats a hell no.

All I see is that it means that he was the only dark lord of his era. Revan was called "the most powerful dark lord of the Jedi Civil War". Those types of quotes are retarded because they don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Edit: ERR the blade wasn't unique, he created it with the help of a holocron "possibly created by the exiles".

The idea may not be, be we haven't seen a single character with a double bladed lightsaber that is of the same hilt design and can adjust blade lengths. So I'll still think its safe to call it unique to him.

And (if you were thinking this, not saying your were) no, Zannah's was not the same, her's had a regular double blade hilt but a shorter blade length.

Was Ulic ever crowned DLOTS or was it just Kun? I know Ragnos only declared Kun that and Ulic his apprentice but did out of universe sources ever declare him one too?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
All I see is that it means that he was the only dark lord of his era. Revan was called "the most powerful dark lord of the Jedi Civil War". Those types of quotes are retarded because they don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.
The problem is the quote referred to kun as the most powerful of the dark lords.

Now, were there any other dark lord during the TOTJ era? Lasti recall, no. Then i'd argue that the quote was referring to all the dark lords that preceded him and weren't you fond of arguing how ub3r and l33t marka ragnos was or have you changed your stance?

And revan IS the most powerful dark lord of the jedi civil war, i don't find that quote retarted at all.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
The problem is the quote referred to kun as the most powerful of the dark lords.

He was the only dark lord of the time.

Now, were there any other dark lord during the TOTJ era? Lasti recall, no. Then i'd argue that the quote was referring to all the dark lords that preceded him and weren't you fond of arguing how ub3r and l33t marka ragnos was or have you changed your stance?

There's nothing that would put Kun above everyone before him, even with unknowns like Ragnos.

And revan IS the most powerful dark lord of the jedi civil war, i don't find that quote retarted at all.

It's just as retarded as the quote about Kun. Revan was 1 out of 2 dark lords, while Kun was the only one.