Originally posted by Borbarad
My-oh-my. Looks like it is time for some intervention here...I understand the skepticism here and, indeed, it's quite justified, because we don't have much feats from the respective combatants Kun faced. However. I think one can try to cast a general judgement on the abilities of the opponents.
Let's start with Vodo. Vodo is seen to be the Jedi Orders main lightsaber instructor in time of the TOTJ era comics (provided that students of other masters are brought to him to master the art).
If that position says anything about respective skill, he could be put into one category with the likes of Sora Bulq, Cin Drallig or Anoon Bondara.
Note that they all, while very good with a lightsaber, weren't equipped with enough overal duelling capability to stand up to the likes of Dooku (Bulq), Anakin (Drallig) or Maul (Bondara).
They point is that all those individuals had, most likely, very good technical abilities, but lacked the sufficient force potential (or mastery) to keep up with the top-dogs in their time. But, well, the same can be said about Kas'im.
A, possible, better hint to Vodo's lightsaber skill is his weapon of choice. A stick that he wields "more powerful than a lightsaber". This quotes actually could be taken as an indication of the idea that Vodo is, de facto, the best overall duellist of the Jedi Order in Kun's time. An idea that is bolstered by the fact, that they wait for Vodo before starting the conclave on Deneba.
And Qel-Droma? The mere fact that he was capable to withstand the attack of a hatred-driven Jedi in melee combat alone is impressive, considering he didn't have any force powers any longer and was - pretty much - out of training for almost a decade before Vima Sunrider did visit him. The ability to take it up with Jedi in melee combat is usually reserved for extremely well trained individuals (Echani, Mandalorians, other mercenaries) and even most of them, usually, don't manage to hold their own against a Jedi for a long amount of time. Again: This speaks for a very high degree of technical lightsaber mastery in Ulics case, again mirroring the above mentioned individuals, with the difference that Ulic once had a nice amount of force potential (apparently) to back that skills up.
Yet, one should forget that Kun's confrontations with both individuals happened before he completed his journey to the Dark Side (which happened after the fight with Qel-Droma), while his later incarnation had the muse to toy with Vodo, who he had trouble defeating in their first engagement. Nonetheless, even then Vodo told him that Kun was the most gifted student he had - presumably over a time span of more than 500 years. That would put Kun on a podest with duellist receiving similar accolades from their peers and - in this particular case - one could think about Dooku here...
Excuse me, Faunus, but this statement is devoid of logic. When you can't judge Vodo's skill in comparison to that of the PT era Jedi, you can't use the fact that Mace fought the best in the PT era to conclude that his fighting style is, somehow, better than Kuns. That doesn't make sense. Neither can you simply state that person X from the PT is more powerful / a better duellist then person Y from Kun's time, based on nothing, and then draw conclusions from there.
Kun was, at the end of his "life", the most powerful individual, the "darkest power" and the best duellist in the Galaxy, bar none. Something that Mace can't claim for himself.
Hasty generalization and therefor logical fallacious.
I agree with you that almost anybody in the saga is praised as "master swordsman", but this still requires some case-by-case examination and not general dismissing that description, because certain people who did, well, not too good with the weapon have written that term next to their names.
Taking a look at the source material could help...
CLICK MEFor some people who don't see what happens. We see two thugs aiming their blasters at Kun, who comes walking out of Nadds tomb without a lightsaber in hand. So, obviously, Kun took out the blade, ignited it, took the first guy out, crossed several meters of distance between the first and the second guy, and did cut the second guy down too.
Okay...Here you go...
"Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a resource of energy" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.49). A process during which "Gantoris is burned to ashes" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.35).
So, let me make this clear: The ionized air-particles of Exar Kun's spirit do still hold enough power to reduce Gantoris to ashes with a force drain. Which is a pretty remarkeable demonstration of force powers, considering that the only other being who has reduced a force user to ashes (but in that instance with force lightning), is Sidious himself, who grilled some Sith Alchemy adepts. But, unlike Kun in the sited instance, Sidious was in possession of his complete power during the incidend. Kun wasn't...
"Exar Kun possessed a great many other dark powers that he was unable to harness without the energy he needed to fuel his disembodied will. Some of these powers he was able to channel through Kyp, Gantoris and Streen to archive his ends." (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.50)Okay. This actually implies that all powers that Kun was capable of using with the "help" of one of Luke's students, he could have performed on his own, if he still had his original body. That means, that a living Kun would have the ability to rip post-DE-Luke spirit out of his body with a single force attack (an attack he, originally, channeled through Kyp).
Which is pretty nifty, considering that Luke was barely put on his ass by a lightning barrage from DE Sidious, that the Emperor fired to kill his redeemed apprentice.
Not to mention that he could summon tornadoes (force wind) and even as a damn spirit was able to force choke all of Luke's students at once (which are multiple simultaneous applications of telekinesis).
But to help you with putting his command over the force into perspective:
"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun (keep in mind that even Lord Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know about the Sith powers" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.50)"This, actually, reveals that:
a) Kun's claim that he mastered everything Sadow / Nadd left behind was justified (because he apparently did know everything that there was to know about Sith powers).
b) Kun's knowledge and control over the Dark Side powers does eclipse that of Lord Vader.
You may also remember the statement of Kevin J. Anderson, who said that, to find out who the most powerful Sith ever is, one should put DE Sidious and Kun into a fight and see who wins. [/B]
Wow. Look who's lifting his ugly head again - the great Lightsnake, sharing with us another dose of his bias against anything not happening in the PT era. Great.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, he isn't. He's a friend of Thon's and a respected master. Otherwise, he wouldn't be relaxing on Dantooine with a grand total of three apprentices far removed from the actual Jedi temple...doing things instructors are supposed to do.
Vodo is a respected master. Nothing implies EVER he's anything more
Actually, Lightsnake, you could do some homework, before trying to argue with me, which would make this more fun for me, considering you could - I don't know - make some point, instead of limiting yourself to pointless rants. Vodo was the responsible for establishing the Academy on Dantooine which was - as it appears - one of the three most important Jedi training facilities at that point in time (next to Ossus and Coruscant).
That aside: A "grand total of three apprentices" is precisely three times as much apprentices as any PT era Jedi had at a time. Nice when attempts to sarcasm backfire, isn't it? Not to mention that this was - actually - a lie, because we saw him training more people on Ossus, brought to him, apparently, by other masters. But I guess you "missed" that somehow...
...Why? He's demonstrated nothing close to their 'respective skill.' No accolades on par...nothing. You might as well say it puts him on par with Raskta Lsu
Excuse me, Lightsnake. Demonstrations of the "respective skill" of the people I listed would be what? Oh, right. Wait a second. Getting cut down by Darth Maul, getting cut down by Anakin Skywalker (in a three on one situation) and, of course, getting first pimpslapped by Dooku just to be owned by Quinlan Vos later. That certainly sounds like an impressive list of actual feats that those people can add to their life careers.
No, it's that the other guys were better saber duelists themselves.
Brillant investigative abilities there, Sherlock. Gosh. I'm blinded by your genius. Really. That big bright flash appearing when your last functioning brain-cells exploded was too much for my eyes.
No, it means that he's able to empower his stick to become more powerful then a lightsaber as evidenced by the fact, his stick is blocking lightsabers. This isn't difficult.
But of course that isn't difficult, Lightsnake. Hence why we see anybody fighting with sticks in the...oh, damn it...wait a second. Actually, we don't see anybody replicating that feat, which, by the way, hints - just one thought, considering you don't come up with own one - that Vodo does sacrifice power to archive that and thus would have less power to aid his natural abilities in combat using the force, correct? Despite of that, he easily managed to put Kun on his ass, using said stick. The same Exar Kun that would become the most powerful entity in the Galaxy less than a year later.
We know Ulic is a damn fine duelist. How does he compare to others from different eras?
Woohoo. Great. After spouting out bullshit all over the place, Lightsnake has found the only point of that debate, repeats the question and then...then...oh...damn Lightsnake. How do fighters from other eras compare to Ulic? Hell. Lightsnake. How do fighters from other eras compare to Vodo?! Good god. Do you see the light now, Lightsnake?
Ok. Substantiate Vodo's students then. Because judging from Crado and Sylvar, that's not a remarkably impressive statement.
Wow. I shall substantiate all of Vodo's students from a 500 year history of training Jedi? Substantiate 10,000 Jedi to come up with the respective skill levels of Yoda or Dooku. Lmao.
He fought better people from a different era. Lucas's prime of the Jedi comment was, unfortunately, referring to combat in the context. We can however, conclude from available evidence, that Mace was better than just about anyone Kun fought
Wow, Lightsnake. Apparently, you did read the purpose of the entire argument, as you did comment on it and then - you simply didn't understand it. When we can't compare people from different eras on an objective basis, then we can't come up with conclusions on who was "better". Proof that Dooku - just as example - was better than Ulic. You can't. Not without making a shitload of assumptions. Not that it would make any difference because Kun tooled anybody his was confronted with badly, with Ulic being the only exception.
I was unaware they lived in the same era. You know? Swap 'Kun' out for 'Krayt' and the sentence is just as true.
I was aware that some useless comment would follow here. Thanks for living up to my expectations and acting your role, Lolsnake. Firstly: Your statement is not correct. Secondly: Kun was the darkest power in a Galaxy that had the True Sith (including a 1000 year old Sith Emperor) hiding in the unknown regions and the Star Forge in orbit above Lehon. And third: The comment was there, because Kun was - without question - dominating his era. Who can claim that for himself? Revan...maybe. Sidious. Of course. Luke, when talking about Jedi and Yoda in the same category. Other than that?
Or it just means that someone like Vader is that good.
What's that? The new "let's just drop a sentence somewhere" tactic? Obviously, there are rather huge differences between people listed as "master swordsman". Vader being among those people does actually prove the point. But, well, thanks for input...
Oh, not this again.
Kun draws his blade in a slash, then cuts down the other guy who is understandably shocked at SEEING HIS FATHER MURDERED
Christ, Kun kills two Naddist street preachers and he's a speed God? This puts him...what, UNDER Johun Othone who took out two elite assassins before either of them could react?
Oh, not this again. Lightsnake trying to debate...
Yes, he draws the lightsaber from the left side of his body, when, in his initial stance, he was leaning on his right arm. He cuts the guy holding a gun right in his face down, before the guy is able to pull the trigger. Then we all, with Lolsnake at the only exception, have missed the shock in the face of the second Naddist, that prevented him from pulling a damn trigger to save his life, before Kun bisected him. Sure.
And, woohoo. The situation is of course totally compareable to Johun's deed, because the Sith assassins were ambushing him, when he had no weapon ready and was carrying scrolls in one hand while leaning on the other. Yup.
And? You forget Kun had a great source of Dark Side power in Yavin to draw off of from Yavin, as well as Gantoris's own rage and the fact Gantoris had practically no training
Apparently, you're quite incapable of reading, Lightsnake. The "great source of Dark Side power" on Yavin is Kun himself which is why it's gone after his final defeat. And the hate of people is helping opponents to force drain them? Does that mean that every Sith Lord trying to oppose Kun would be pretty much FUBAR'd, given that most of them are driven by hatred? 🙄
Uh, no. He needed to hit Luke from behind with Kyp's help for this to be effective. Having a power is not a "affects all opponents equally."
And 'some' of these powers
"From behind"? We're talking about the same Luke that engaged the "duo" with an ignited lightsaber being ready to fight. Yeah. What a backstabbing bastard Kun was there. LOL. And the sourcebook I just quoted pretty much claims that Kun, while alive, could have done that alone. With equal efficience I suppose, considering that Luke had no defense against that attack at all.
And failed at it utterly. And again, defeat those untrained apprentices, Exar Kun!
Really, this is like saying crushing Johun Othone is a great indication of prowess and power
Did we already mention the fact that Kun, at this point in time, was a powerless spirit ? I just wanted to mention it once again, in case somebody is ignoring that damn fact to belittle a character he doesn't like. At least, Kun didn't get shoved into a reactor shaft, by a crippled, half-dead cyborg, killed himself with his own force attack or got shot by a smuggler. Because, as we all know, if that was the case, you would praise him as "most powerful Sith Lord in history", right? As you see, Lolsnake...I can play that game far better than yourself, so...urm...give it up already.
'About Sith powers?' That's strange because he didn't have access to EVERYTHING Nadd and Sadow left behind, given some of what Nadd took with him was now gone.
And given Nadd's Holocron, it only died with Kun in the short term.
That's strange, because I didn't see every minute Kun spent with Nadd on paper, which could mean that Kun had - de facto - anything Nadd had to offer, correct? And Nadd's holocron contained stuff, that Nadd had never seen (anything guarded by Sadow's wyrm) and stuff that Kun come up with himself - after wiping Nadd's spirit from existance? Wow. How did Nadd manage to put that stuff into his holocron? Time-travel?
Prove it. Vader had the Telos Holocron at his disposal thanks to Palpatine. One of the gatekeepers...is Naga Sadow, which is handily like having a living, breathing Sadow teaching you. Meaning he had access to everything Kun knew and more
Lightsnake. Again you fail at this little art known as "logic". Firstly, we don't know if Vader ever touched the Telos Holocron. Sidious himself claiming that he will keep the knowledge of Sadow contained in it for himself (source can be found above) does actually seem to contradict that idea, doesn't it? And, of course, it also contradicts the idea that Vader ever was trained by the Sadow gatekeeper. That aside: Even if we ignore those facts. The recordings from Sadow in the holocron must have been made before the Great Hyperspace War, which means that Sadow possible added centuries worth of learning to the knowledge store later found by Kun. Which means that Kun would still have had access to more from Sadow than Vader - who de facto had no access to Sadows knowledge at all.
Actually, there was nothing about DE Palpatine. Discounting the now obvious "why should we care what KJA thinks" strikes me as a bit off atthis point, though.
Actually, when asking somebody who the "most powerful" is, one could expect the person ask to refer to the most powerful incarnations of certain people - in this example: DE Sidious. And, that aside, I never said that anybody should care about what KJA said. But the guy who asked him in the first place - which would be yourself - should actually care about what he said. Otherwise asking KJA for his oppinion wouldn't have made much sense, eh? But, well. Actually nothing you ever did here made much sense...
Originally posted by Borbarad
[B]Wow. Look who's lifting his ugly head again - the great Lightsnake, sharing with us another dose of his bias against anything not happening in the PT era. Great.
Actually, Lightsnake, you could do some homework, before trying to argue with me, which would make this more fun for me, considering you could - I don't know - make some point, instead of limiting yourself to pointless rants. Vodo was the responsible for establishing the Academy on Dantooine which was - as it appears - one of the three most important Jedi training facilities at that point in time (next to Ossus and Coruscant).
That aside: A "grand total of three apprentices" is precisely three times as much apprentices as any PT era Jedi had at a time.
Nice when attempts to sarcasm backfire, isn't it? Not to mention that this was - actually - a lie, because we saw him training more people on Ossus, brought to him, apparently, by other masters. But I guess you "missed" that somehow...
Excuse me, Lightsnake. Demonstrations of the "respective skill" of the people I listed would be what? Oh, right. Wait a second. Getting cut down by Darth Maul, getting cut down by Anakin Skywalker (in a three on one situation) and, of course, getting first pimpslapped by Dooku just to be owned by Quinlan Vos later. That certainly sounds like an impressive list of actual feats that those people can add to their life careers.
Brillant investigative abilities there, Sherlock. Gosh. I'm blinded by your genius. Really. That big bright flash appearing when your last functioning brain-cells exploded was too much for my eyes.
But of course that isn't difficult, Lightsnake. Hence why we see anybody fighting with sticks in the...oh, damn it...wait a second. Actually, we don't see anybody replicating that feat, which, by the way, hints - just one thought, considering you don't come up with own one - that Vodo does sacrifice power to archive that and thus would have less power to aid his natural abilities in combat using the force, correct? Despite of that, he easily managed to put Kun on his ass, using said stick. The same Exar Kun that would become the most powerful entity in the Galaxy less than a year later.
Woohoo. Great. After spouting out bullshit all over the place, Lightsnake has found the only point of that debate, repeats the question and then...then...oh...damn Lightsnake. How do fighters from other eras compare to Ulic? Hell. Lightsnake. How do fighters from other eras compare to Vodo?! Good god. Do you see the light now, Lightsnake?
You tell me, nobody is throwing out 'greatest Yoda ever trained' here as an accolade for anyone.
Wow. I shall substantiate all of Vodo's students from a 500 year history of training Jedi? Substantiate 10,000 Jedi to come up with the respective skill levels of Yoda or Dooku. Lmao.
Wow, Lightsnake. Apparently, you did read the purpose of the entire argument, as you did comment on it and then - you simply didn't understand it. When we can't compare people from different eras on an objective basis, then we can't come up with conclusions on who was "better". Proof that Dooku - just as example - was better than Ulic. You can't. Not without making a shitload of assumptions. Not that it would make any difference because Kun tooled anybody his was confronted with badly, with Ulic being the only exception.
I was aware that some useless comment would follow here. Thanks for living up to my expectations and acting your role, Lolsnake. Firstly: Your statement is not correct. Secondly: Kun was the darkest power in a Galaxy that had the True Sith (including a 1000 year old Sith Emperor) hiding in the unknown regions and the Star Forge in orbit above Lehon.
And third: The comment was there, because Kun was - without question - dominating his era. Who can claim that for himself? Revan...maybe. Sidious. Of course. Luke, when talking about Jedi and Yoda in the same category. Other than that?
What's that? The new "let's just drop a sentence somewhere" tactic? Obviously, there are rather huge differences between people listed as "master swordsman". Vader being among those people does actually prove the point. But, well, thanks for input...
Oh, not this again. Lightsnake trying to debate...
Yes, he draws the lightsaber from the left side of his body, when, in his initial stance, he was leaning on his right arm. He cuts the guy holding a gun right in his face down, before the guy is able to pull the trigger. Then we all, with Lolsnake at the only exception, have missed the shock in the face of the second Naddist, that prevented him from pulling a damn trigger to save his life, before Kun bisected him. Sure.
And, woohoo. The situation is of course totally compareable to Johun's deed, because the Sith assassins were ambushing him, when he had no weapon ready and was carrying scrolls in one hand while leaning on the other. Yup.
Apparently, you're quite incapable of reading, Lightsnake. The "great source of Dark Side power" on Yavin is Kun himself which is why it's gone after his final defeat.
And the hate of people is helping opponents to force drain them?
Does that mean that every Sith Lord trying to oppose Kun would be pretty much FUBAR'd, given that most of them are driven by hatred? 🙄
"From behind"? We're talking about the same Luke that engaged the "duo" with an ignited lightsaber being ready to fight. Yeah. What a backstabbing bastard Kun was there. LOL. And the sourcebook I just quoted pretty much claims that Kun, while alive, could have done that alone. With equal efficience I suppose, considering that Luke had no defense against that attack at all.
I see you've got no response to the sheer stupidity of the notion that Palpatine aimed to kill Luke with that blast being pointed out. Good, maybe you are learning.
Did we already mention the fact that Kun, at this point in time, was a powerless spirit ? I just wanted to mention it once again, in case somebody is ignoring that damn fact to belittle a character he doesn't like. At least, Kun didn't get shoved into a reactor shaft, by a crippled, half-dead cyborg, killed himself with his own force attack or got shot by a smuggler.
Because, as we all know, if that was the case, you would praise him as "most powerful Sith Lord in history", right? As you see, Lolsnake...I can play that game far better than yourself, so...urm...give it up already.
That's strange, because I didn't see every minute Kun spent with Nadd on paper, which could mean that Kun had - de facto - anything Nadd had to offer, correct?
And Nadd's holocron contained stuff, that Nadd had never seen (anything guarded by Sadow's wyrm) and stuff that Kun come up with himself - after wiping Nadd's spirit from existance? Wow. How did Nadd manage to put that stuff into his holocron? Time-travel? [/B]
Originally posted by BorbaradAgain you fail at this little art known as "logic". Firstly, we don't know if Vader ever touched the Telos Holocron. Sidious himself claiming that he will keep the knowledge of Sadow contained in it for himself (source can be found above) does actually seem to contradict that idea, doesn't it? And, of course, it also contradicts the idea that Vader ever was trained by the Sadow gatekeeper. That aside: Even if we ignore those facts. The recordings from Sadow in the holocron must have been made before the Great Hyperspace War, which means that Sadow possible added centuries worth of learning to the knowledge store later found by Kun. Which means that Kun would still have had access to more from Sadow than Vader - who de facto had no access to Sadows knowledge at all.
Oh, freaking lord, reading comprehension is your friend: Palpatine made that recording After Vader had died years ago. The giveaway being he's in a young body? And discusses how Vader turned on him? He's communicating this to whoever's discovered the Holocron and says he'll hold on to Sadow's knowledge 'A little longer.'
So, yeah, it contradicts the idea he'd let his apprentice access his holocron...right.
And must have come from before the Hyperspace War? and? What grand new techniques did Sadow invent in the interim? It'd be rather interesting, given he, y'know, went into hibernation for six hundred years. Until he was awoken by Freedon Nadd in 4,400 BBY...given the Great Hyperspace War was in 5000 BBY, that's not leaving us much time[Quote]
Actually, when asking somebody who the "most powerful" is, one could expect the person ask to refer to the most powerful incarnations of certain people - in this example: DE Sidious. And, that aside, I never said that anybody should care about what KJA said. But the guy who asked him in the first place - which would be yourself - should actually care about what he said. Otherwise asking KJA for his oppinion wouldn't have made much sense, eh? But, well. Actually nothing you ever did here made much sense... [/B]
I can't believe I missed this thread.
Snake, keep this alive for the next ten days. I'll start from post one after orientation.
LightsnakeI've seen it used on Nebaris and random goons. I think it's universally applied to n00bs
Lightsnake, I would appreciate it if you could come up with a new insult. "Brat" is getting tiresome and (I thought)reserved for me. Thanks champ.
Spoiler:
I kid... maybe
truejedi😐
guys, why can't we just put aside our differences and all be friends?
How long were you gone for?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vodo started the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine. Meaning he was a respected master, Which we already knew. So, this puts vodo on par with the guys who established the Academies on Mustafar and Bespin?
Just to get that right: So you're assuming that every pointless person in the Jedi Order is allowed to establish some Academy on whatever ass-backward planet he choses, without any prerequisites being met? Then, really, I'd love to know, why we have less than a dozen of such Academies developing in more than 20,000 years in which the Jedi Order did grow, with each generation including several thousand Jedi of whom, I suppose, several hundred where "respected masters". There is something, dear Lightsnake, that is called "intention of the author". And while this is crucial for interpretation of literaric sources, you seem to ignore it with an astonishing patience.
It seems our dear Nai is mixing things up just a little because last I checked: Ossus isn't Dantooine. His three apprentices then were only Sylvar, Crado and Exar. Next time we see them? Exar's left and Crado and Sylvar are basically Jedi knights. So, Vodo trained more people when he wasn't training his current three? What're we supposed to glean from this, exactly?
Funny, Lightsnake. Apparently, somebody here did miss "The Freedon Nadd Uprising". Why? Because we have Nomi Sunrider who is taken to Ossus there by Master Thon. And, well...who awaits her there to teach her the art of constructing a lightsaber? Correct: Master Vodo. So...urm. Where you deliberately trying to twist the truth here, given your year-long bias against any non-PT character, or was that one of the many things that the great Lightsnake has "forgotten" along the way? I wonder.
So we have the fact that Vodo is not training his own apprentices on Dantooine, but he's also training other masters apprentices in the art of lightsaber construction on Ossus. And this at the very same time. And last time I checked, the list of his known apprentices, includes Krynda Draay, Dace Diath, Shoaneb Culu, Qrrrl Toq, Nomi Sunrider (Ossus), Exar Kun, Crado, Sylvar (Dantooine). I count eight apprentices there.
Yes, and it says something that all three of them have more support to their names than Vodo.
And Sora was 'owned' by Quinlan? If 'owned' involves absolutely trashing someone after totally destroying their master and only being defeated because your opponent has a sudden epiphany with the support of said master and his apprentice...what the hell does a close fight involve?
I still remember the term called "feat wars" and it still doesn't help you to win debates. Proof that Vodo is less skilled in combat than those beings...oh wait? You can't. Then, I suppose, it's "shut up" time for little Lightsnake again - especially since I noted multiple times how all of this is speculation.
Wow, he defeated his own trainee whose only exposure to the dark Side that'd make him said entity didn't occur yet. Only fair then to use Yoda beating up Dooku in his teenage training sessions as proof that Yoda is godly.
Oh, Torr Snappit, anyone? Jedi during the Ruusan campaign who fought with a stick in favor of a saber.
And yes, 'more powerful' than a saber. Again, because it's shown to be blocking sabers. Hey, why do most Jedi not bother with it? Because facing dangerous opponents with a hunk of wood is a catastrophically stupid idea.
Yes. Wow. He did defeat the guy, who's bladework was on par with that of Ulic, whom yourself noted to be a "gifted duellist". How easy to you consider it to put a "gifted duellist" on his ass, using a freaking stick, while your opponent is armed with a high-energy blade that cuts through virtually everything? Is that easy, or does it, rather than "being easy", belong to a category of stunts to pull of, that would usually require a very experienced and skilled fighter which, gosh, fits the actual description for Vodo you keep ignoring.
And wow. You found a second Jedi among 1000 generations of Jedi, each including several thousands of individuals. Is "one in a million" something "rare" in the Lightsnake dimension of logic? I'd still like to see proof that it's "easy" to make a stick resitant against lightsabers, as you claimed.
Easy: Unlike Vodo, there's actual evidence that Ulic might actually be able to hang with the other eras. Without falling back on Vodo being able to defeat his own trainee and his informed ability stick fu, is there a scrap of actual, concrete evidence he could last more than ten seconds against Kas'im, Yoda or even Darth Krayt?
Oh my god. Shall I again recite the fact that Kun did stalemate Ulic, while Vodo managed to put Kun on his ass, using a stick? Shall we, once again, ignore that Vodo is shown training people on Ossus - in the art of using a lightsaber and that he's noted as "experienced warrior", which, actually, means that he has some experience in the art of combat?
And where is the evidence that Kas'im or Yoda could last more then ten seconds against Vodo? Oh. Wait a second. That's the entire point here - thanks for ignoring it yet again, Lightsnake.
You tell me, nobody is throwing out 'greatest Yoda ever trained' here as an accolade for anyone.
No? "The greatest enemy of the Dark Side" is used as accolade for Yoda, without anyone adding substance to the quote. Dooku has been listed as "one of the most powerful students" the temple has come up with in "the last centuries", without anybody substanciating how good 200+ years worth of Jedi would be. And do you know why nobody comes up with such substantiations? Because such statements speak for themselves, unless you're Lightsnake, who couldn't find the obvious, if it was biting his ass off.
But let me explain this once again. We have Vodo, who is a 600 year old Jedi Master. This alone is enough to equip him with more expierence and knowledge than most Jedi who we have seen - just because of his age. Now this individiual, who has trained Jedi for centuries and, apparently, not only on Dantooine but on Ossus, too (as wee see him doing so). This individual claims that Kun is the best duellist he has trained so far...
So. What do we have here. Obviously (if your name isn't Lightsnake), Vodo, pretty clearly, puts Kun on a pedestal of being a better duellist than several centuries worth of Jedi students. So Kun, apparently, is a prodigy and a great Jedi, even at that point in time.
And finally he might actually see the point: Very few of...well, ANYONE, Kun faced proved themselves to be anything a step up above 'useless.'
The difference is Mace has far better feats, showings and accolades. Ergo, he's probably better. And not just by a little bit.
Yup. Let's not forget the great beings that Mace defeated in lightsaber combat. Errr. Hmm. Oh...wait a minute. Actually, Mace can just prove his lightsaber ability against his contemporaries - much like Kun. But Kun did completely dominate his era. I may ask one little question here: Do you really assume that the people in Kun's time somehow lacked the lightsaber skill and abilities of people living in the PT era? Because, otherwise, this little piece of text doesn't make sense. And if you assume that, I'd love to have your proof for it.
The inactive Star Forge can be counted amongst 'darkest powers' now?
And wow, Exar's stronger than a total unknown.
I also expected a pithy and bitchy comment to cover up your intellectual shortcoming. Thanks for it.
What's your point, Nai? OMG, Kun could claim the title of 'Teh bestest' in his era while Mace couldn't! Never mind Mace living in a totally different era. In other words: So what?
Lightsnake. Without the assumption, that the PT era literally towered the TOTJ era in overall skill - which doesn't make much sense - you have to face the fact that Kun reached a position in comparison to his contemporaries, that Mace never had. That Mace lived in a different era doesn't mean anything here, unless you want to come up with a comparison of the respective era now, assuming the PT era is - somehow - better.
And, just let me point out your double-standard in terms of thinking: When people like Vader or Mace tool anybody they face, they are uber. If Kun tools anybody he does face, his opponent must - somehow - be "a step above useless". But nice to know, that you have no bias against non-PT-era characters... 🙄
Especially when we see said "a step above useless" people cutting their way through a nice army of war droids (Sylvar), then through actual Krathh (Sylvar on Coruscant), killing mutated Massassi with their hands (or claws - as Sylvar did), overpower Ulic using the force (Vodo when capturing the Sith on Coruscant). But I suppose, everybody could have done things like that. No problemo.
So, Kun, in a totally different set of circumstances was dominating his era (Despite being about to be utterly and completely crushed) in ways that, by and large had more to do with clever planning than personal power, given his master stroke was tricking Crado and Aleema into causing that supernova...to that...this means what precisely? Kun was a bigger threat?
Oh. Kun was about to be utterly crushed? You mean by several thousand Jedi attacking him at once? Lmao. Kun's domination was due to clever planning than to personal power? You did, by any chance, not miss those instances where he killed the Jedi Grandmaster with a single force attack, toyed with his own master to tool him later, put the entire Senate into a stasis and force drained an entire race of beings? I'm just asking, because your statement doesn't make any sense, if we take that into consideration.
And Vader tends to kill people with that accolade, hence the point. Keep up.
I can't grasp the fact that a being who tries to accuse me of "intellectual shortcoming" (I lol'd there by the way) can't get a simple statement into his head. Yes. Vader kills people being called "master swordsman" - sometimes pretty easily - while being a "master swordsman" himself. So...is there an obvious gap of skill between the people that are put into this category, ranging from "Vader" to "Vader's victims" ? Yes. So does it make sense to judge people's lightsaber abilities based on that term? Apparently not.
Are you this stupid? These guys are street preachers. Given the hand he holds the saber in changes several times, it's kind of hilarious you're errors in the art as any sort of point.
It's kind of hilarious, that you attempt to straw man me. Where have I used "errors in the art" as some sort of point? Kun is leaning against the wall and holds the scrolls in the other hand. So...he did need to free one hand in order to use his lightsaber, which he did need to get into his hand and ignite before cutting the guy down, who was holding a gun right into his face.
And "street preachers"? I suppose, you also missed the fact that those two where members of a Dark Side cult that waged war against the beast riders of Onderon over decades before the events shown in the TOTJ comics. So, urm...assuming that they are some nice, peaceful guys seems to be quite wrong, especially when we consider the fact that they pulled blasters on Kun with the intention to kill the guy.
And yeah, I'm sure an inexperienced teenager is going to be able to react like a hardened killer against a trained Jedi Knight who's just killed his father.
The most important points again: Member of a Dark Side cult, constant war experience on the spot. And where did you get the idea from, that he was a "teenager"? I must have missed the "rise of teenage philosophers" during my philosophy studies, because if philosophers have one thing in common, it's usually that they are rather old.
Not to mention, Lightsnake. We're just talking about speed here. I've yet to see a Jedi not capable of moving faster than the eye could see, given that Padawan Kenobi was able to pull that out. And to realize that, one doesn't even have to speak about Kun's bladework. But maybe he's the first double-blade user to wield that weapon "slowly"...
Awww, poor baby forgot to read I, Jedi where it's pointed out the massive Dark Side nexus is coming from a great deal else that requires purging even after Kun is dead and is only permanently wiped out when Corran destroys Kun's statue?
Yes, I think he did
And I think, poor Lightsnake forgot to present proof where Kun did actually benefit from this Dark Side source. Oh...wait...That power was focused in Kun's statue? So...how did it get there? Did, maybe, Kun store the power there, which would mean it was still an extend of his normal powers? Yes. Not that it matters, because we have all sources agreeing on the fact that Kun was less powerful in his spirit form that he was while being alive. But we could argue a few more semantics without you making a point.
Gantoris gave into his rage and attacked...I was unaware Kun used a force drain on Gantoris as that rarely leaves the recipient a charred husk
More ignorance. I quoted the JA sourcebook on the issue. Either read or shut up.
Wow, Sith Lords are totally comparable to barely trained youths
Thanks for dodging the point.
Yeah, Luke had no defense When he'd already been hit with it, forgot that part? Kind of like when Kol Skywalker had no defense against Nihl's lightning when he was already being fried.
And yeah, Luke started off with his saber ignited. Facing Kyp. Holding back as not to hurt him. Kun appeared behind Luke shortly thereafter and attacked WITH Kyp. From both sides.
Did you, by any chance, miss the part I quoted, that clearly says that Kun channeled the attack through Kyp? Or are we back at Lightsnake picking sources and ignoring anything he doesn't like? Not to mention that Luke had no defense because of the nature of the attack, which is pretty clearly mentioned. So: How does it matter?
Awww, poor baby can't form a coherent argument, so he needs to branch away. Cry more, Nai. Cry more.
Actually, Lightsnake. It seems so, that you are still ignoring the point that Kun was a powerless spirit - in comparison to his living, breathing self, and - wow - you managed to just do that again, maybe because there isn't really much to argue that fact. Maybe you are learning?
At what point did Nadd personally instruct him in any Sith Lore worth a damn? He left him with the scrolls and led him to Yavin...okay. And?
And what gave you the idea we didn't see all the time spent with Kun and Nadd That's sure the implication.
Urm...perhabs Nadd himself, claiming he has "given everything" to Kun. With the same claim coming from Sidious again in the "Essential Guide to the force"?
At what point was it made clear that Nadd never saw anything beyond the Sith Wyrm, given he was informed about the laboratory beyond there and was Naga's student and all...
Also, what did Kun invent himself now?
You can't be that stupid. Nadd is free to roam the Galaxy, so AFTER HIS DEATH he was free to go anywhere - which would have included the laboratory. Before that? If he had any access to that knowledge stored there, he wouldn't have needed Kun in the first place, because he could have created a new body for himself before his very own death. As this didn't happen, he obviously didn't have access to the stuff store in there - which is apparent, as Kun finds it "as it was left" by Sadow.
Oh, freaking lord, reading comprehension is your friend: Palpatine made that recording After Vader had died years ago. The giveaway being he's in a young body? And discusses how Vader turned on him? He's communicating this to whoever's discovered the Holocron and says he'll hold on to Sadow's knowledge 'A little longer.'
So, yeah, it contradicts the idea he'd let his apprentice access his holocron...right.
And must have come from before the Hyperspace War? and? What grand new techniques did Sadow invent in the interim? It'd be rather interesting, given he, y'know, went into hibernation for six hundred years. Until he was awoken by Freedon Nadd in 4,400 BBY...given the Great Hyperspace War was in 5000 BBY, that's not leaving us much time
LOL. It's almost too funny that you mention "reading comprehension" here. Shall we do a reading comprehension check?
The Essential Guide to the Force, Sidious comment on Sith Alchemy (p.173-175)
"Although the indigenous Sith people did practice alchemy long before the Jedi Exiles conquered their worlds, it was the Exiles cum Sith Lords who refined and perfected these dark arts. One of the most powerful Sith alchemists was Naga Sadow, who left detailed records of his work within a Sith Holocron I came across some years ago"
[Here follows the entry by Nadd]
Ah, but Naga Sadow was too generous with his knowledge. Far more than I. Also, despite his powers, he was ultimately undone by his own impatience to expant the Sith Empire. After his death, Sadow's secrets were gained by Freedon Nadd, who passed them on to Exar Kun. Because non of them came to a glorious end, I think it's best that I guard Shadow's teachinga bit longer. However, I am tempted to incorporate some of his findings into my own book, The Creation of Monster
As people who are capable of reading - so, Lightsnake is excluded - could have figured out here, that Sidious wanted to encorporate some of the stuff into his "Creation of Monsters", that he started writing before the Battle of Endor - meaning during Vader's life time. The fact that he mentions that he found the holocron "some years ago" also implies, that the record was made quite some time before RotJ.
Furthermore, we have Sidious own words that he wants to keep that knowledge for himself. So why would he even allow Vader access to that knowledge? Correct. He wouldn't. And, even more fun: Even if Vader would have been allowed to access that kind of knowledge, Sadow as a gate keeper demands:
"[...]three measures of blood: One from a person you love, one from a person you hate and one from yourself[...]".
I don't see Vader coming up with a blood sample of a person he actually loves...But, according to the great Lightsnake, none of that would have prevented Vader from getting access to that knowledge. And, of course, Sadow also went into hybernation directly when landing on Yavin 4. His freaking Massassi mutated themselves using his Sith Alchemy apparatus and the "experiments Sadow conducted" on them, where either carried out by themselves or by a sleeping Sadow. 🙄
Well, for starters, it was Marka Ragnos, not Kun, who would have had to fight Palpatine who was never referred to in his DE incarnation. And I'm accused of making no sense when you're the one who brought up something this utterly irrelevant?
Well, for starters: Either Lightsnake is a liar, which is why we refer to him as "Liesnake" here, or he suffers from that mysterious decease known as internet alzheimer. Why? Because, if that wasn't the case, I wouldn't be able to pull out THIS LINK HERE where some guy called "Lightsnake" is posting that:
"Oh, and KJA's quote on when I asked him who the strongest Sith was? "If LFL did a comic that pit Exar against Palpatine, we could find out!"
LOL. Owned yourself once again, Liesnake. It never gets old, huh?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Just to get that right: So you're assuming that every pointless person in the Jedi Order is allowed to establish some Academy on whatever ass-backward planet he choses, without any prerequisites being met? Then, really, I'd love to know, why we have less than a dozen of such Academies developing in more than 20,000 years in which the Jedi Order did grow, with each generation including several thousand Jedi of whom, I suppose, several hundred where "respected masters". There is something, dear Lightsnake, that is called "intention of the author". And while this is crucial for interpretation of literaric sources, you seem to ignore it with an astonishing patience.
Funny, Lightsnake. Apparently, somebody here did miss "The Freedon Nadd Uprising". Why? Because we have Nomi Sunrider who is taken to Ossus there by Master Thon. And, well...who awaits her there to teach her the art of constructing a lightsaber? Correct: Master Vodo. So...urm. Where you deliberately trying to twist the truth here, given your year-long bias against any non-PT character, or was that one of the many things that the great Lightsnake has "forgotten" along the way? I wonder.
So we have the fact that Vodo is not training his own apprentices on Dantooine, but he's also training other masters apprentices in the art of lightsaber construction on Ossus. And this at the very same time. And last time I checked, the list of his known apprentices, includes Krynda Draay, Dace Diath, Shoaneb Culu, Qrrrl Toq, Nomi Sunrider (Ossus), Exar Kun, Crado, Sylvar (Dantooine). I count [b]eight apprentices there.
So we have...three sets of multiple students at a time-WHICH ISN'T UNUSUAL in this era if Thon, Ood and Arca are anything to go by.
Proving...nothing.
I still remember the term called "feat wars" and it still doesn't help you to win debates. Proof that Vodo is less skilled in combat than those beings...oh wait? You can't. Then, I suppose, it's "shut up" time for little Lightsnake again - especially since I noted multiple times how all of this is speculation.
Yes. Wow. He did defeat the guy, who's bladework was on par with that of Ulic, whom yourself noted to be a "gifted duellist".
How easy to you consider it to put a "gifted duellist" on his ass, using a freaking stick, while your opponent is armed with a high-energy blade that cuts through virtually everything? Is that easy, or does it, rather than "being easy", belong to a category of stunts to pull of, that would usually require a very experienced and skilled fighter which, gosh, fits the actual description for Vodo you keep ignoring.
And wow. You found a second Jedi among 1000 generations of Jedi, each including several thousands of individuals. Is "one in a million" something "rare" in the Lightsnake dimension of logic? I'd still like to see proof that it's "easy" to make a stick resitant against lightsabers, as you claimed.
Oh my god. Shall I again recite the fact that Kun did stalemate Ulic, while Vodo managed to put Kun on his ass, using a stick? Shall we, once again, ignore that Vodo is shown training people on Ossus - in the art of using a lightsaber and that he's noted as "experienced warrior", which, actually, means that he has some experience in the art of combat?
And where is the evidence that Kas'im or Yoda could last more then ten seconds against Vodo? Oh. Wait a second. That's the entire point here - thanks for ignoring it yet again, Lightsnake.
No? "The greatest enemy of the Dark Side" is used as accolade for Yoda, without anyone adding substance to the quote.
Dooku has been listed as "one of the most powerful students" the temple has come up with in "the last centuries", without anybody substanciating how good 200+ years worth of Jedi would be. And do you know why nobody comes up with such substantiations? Because such statements speak for themselves, unless you're Lightsnake, who couldn't find the obvious, if it was biting his ass off.
But let me explain this once again. We have Vodo, who is a 600 year old Jedi Master. This alone is enough to equip him with more expierence and knowledge than most Jedi who we have seen - just because of his age.Now this individiual, who has trained Jedi for centuries and, apparently, not only on Dantooine but on Ossus, too (as wee see him doing so). This individual claims that Kun is the best duellist he has trained so far...
So. What do we have here. Obviously (if your name isn't Lightsnake), Vodo, pretty clearly, puts Kun on a pedestal of being a better duellist than several centuries worth of Jedi students. So Kun, apparently, is a prodigy and a great Jedi, even at that point in time.
Yup. Let's not forget the great beings that Mace defeated in lightsaber combat. Errr. Hmm. Oh...wait a minute. Actually, Mace can just prove his lightsaber ability against his contemporaries - much like Kun.
But Kun did completely dominate his era. I may ask one little question here: Do you really assume that the people in Kun's time somehow lacked the lightsaber skill and abilities of people living in the PT era? Because, otherwise, this little piece of text doesn't make sense. And if you assume that, I'd love to have your proof for it. [/B]
Without the assumption, that the PT era literally towered the TOTJ era in overall skill - which doesn't make much sense - you have to face the fact that Kun reached a position in comparison to his contemporaries, that Mace never had. That Mace lived in a different era doesn't mean anything here, unless you want to come up with a comparison of the respective era now, assuming the PT era is - somehow - better.
And, just let me point out your double-standard in terms of thinking: When people like Vader or Mace tool anybody they face, they are uber. If Kun tools anybody he does face, his opponent must - somehow - be "a step above useless". But nice to know, that you have no bias against non-PT-era characters... 🙄
Especially when we see said "a step above useless" people cutting their way through a nice army of war droids (Sylvar), then through actual Krathh (Sylvar on Coruscant), killing mutated Massassi with their hands (or claws - as Sylvar did), overpower Ulic using the force (Vodo when capturing the Sith on Coruscant). But I suppose, everybody could have done things like that. No problemo.
Oh. Kun was about to be utterly crushed? You mean by several thousand Jedi attacking him at once? Lmao. Kun's domination was due to clever planning than to personal power? You did, by any chance, not miss those instances where he killed the Jedi Grandmaster with a single force attack,
toyed with his own master to tool him later, put the entire Senate into a stasis and force drained an entire race of beings? I'm just asking, because your statement doesn't make any sense, if we take that into consideration.
I can't grasp the fact that a being who tries to accuse me of "intellectual shortcoming" (I lol'd there by the way) can't get a simple statement into his head. Yes. Vader kills people being called "master swordsman" - sometimes pretty easily - while being a "master swordsman" himself. So...is there an obvious gap of skill between the people that are put into this category, ranging from "Vader" to "Vader's victims" ? Yes. So does it make sense to judge people's lightsaber abilities based on that term? Apparently not.
It's kind of hilarious, that you attempt to straw man me. Where have I used "errors in the art" as some sort of point? Kun is leaning against the wall and holds the scrolls in the other hand. So...he did need to free one hand in order to use his lightsaber, which he did need to get into his hand and ignite before cutting the guy down, who was holding a gun right into his face.
And "street preachers"? I suppose, you also missed the fact that those two where members of a Dark Side cult that waged war against the beast riders of Onderon over decades before the events shown in the TOTJ comics.
So, urm...assuming that they are some nice, peaceful guys seems to be quite wrong, especially when we consider the fact that they pulled blasters on Kun with the intention to kill the guy.
The most important points again: Member of a Dark Side cult, constant war experience on the spot. And where did you get the idea from, that he was a "teenager"? I must have missed the "rise of teenage philosophers" during my philosophy studies, because if philosophers have one thing in common, it's usually that they are rather old. [/Quote[
The older one, Rask, is his father. I was unaware it took much course in philosophy to stand on a street corner, screaming at people how great the last rulers were. Where did the 'teenage philosopher' point even come from?
[Quote]
Not to mention, Lightsnake. We're just talking about speed here. I've yet to see a Jedi not capable of moving faster than the eye could see, given that Padawan Kenobi was able to pull that out. And to realize that, one doesn't even have to speak about Kun's bladework. But maybe he's the first double-blade user to wield that weapon "slowly"...
And I think, poor Lightsnake forgot to present proof where Kun did actually benefit from this Dark Side source. Oh...wait...That power was focused in Kun's statue? So...how did it get there? Did, maybe, Kun store the power there, which would mean it was still an extend of his normal powers? Yes. Not that it matters, because we have all sources agreeing on the fact that Kun was less powerful in his spirit form that he was while being alive. But we could argue a few more semantics without you making a point.
More ignorance. I quoted the JA sourcebook on the issue. Either read or shut up.
Thanks for dodging the point. [/B]
Originally posted by Borbarad
Did you, by any chance, miss the part I quoted, that clearly says that Kun channeled the attack through Kyp? Or are we back at Lightsnake picking sources and ignoring anything he doesn't like? Not to mention that Luke had no defense because of the nature of the attack, which is pretty clearly mentioned. So: How does it matter?
Actually, Lightsnake. It seems so, that you are still ignoring the point that Kun was a powerless spirit - in comparison to his living, breathing self, and - wow - you managed to just do that again, maybe because there isn't really much to argue that fact. Maybe you are learning?
Cry more, Nai. Cry more.
Urm...perhabs Nadd himself, claiming he has "given everything" to Kun. With the same claim coming from Sidious again in the "Essential Guide to the force"?
You can't be that stupid. Nadd is free to roam the Galaxy, so [b]AFTER HIS DEATH he was free to go anywhere - which would have included the laboratory. Before that? If he had any access to that knowledge stored there, he wouldn't have needed Kun in the first place, because he could have created a new body for himself before his very own death. As this didn't happen, he obviously didn't have access to the stuff store in there - which is apparent, as Kun finds it "as it was left" by Sadow.
LOL. It's almost too funny that you mention "reading comprehension" here. Shall we do a reading comprehension check?The Essential Guide to the Force, Sidious comment on Sith Alchemy (p.173-175)
"Although the indigenous Sith people did practice alchemy long before the Jedi Exiles conquered their worlds, it was the Exiles cum Sith Lords who refined and perfected these dark arts. One of the most powerful Sith alchemists was Naga Sadow, who left detailed records of his work within a Sith Holocron I came across some years ago"
[Here follows the entry by Nadd]
Ah, but Naga Sadow was too generous with his knowledge. Far more than I. Also, despite his powers, he was ultimately undone by his own impatience to expant the Sith Empire. After his death, Sadow's secrets were gained by Freedon Nadd, who passed them on to Exar Kun. Because non of them came to a glorious end, I think it's best that I guard Shadow's teachinga bit longer. However, I am tempted to incorporate some of his findings into my own book, The Creation of MonsterAs people who are capable of reading - so, Lightsnake is excluded - could have figured out here, that Sidious wanted to encorporate some of the stuff into his "Creation of Monsters", that he started writing before the Battle of Endor - meaning during Vader's life time. The fact that he mentions that he found the holocron "some years ago" also implies, that the record was made quite some time before RotJ.
Furthermore, we have Sidious own words that he wants to keep that knowledge for himself. So why would he even allow Vader access to that knowledge? Correct. He wouldn't. And, even more fun: Even if Vader would have been allowed to access that kind of knowledge, Sadow as a gate keeper demands:
"[...]three measures of blood: One from a person you love, one from a person you hate and one from yourself[...]".I don't see Vader coming up with a blood sample of a person he actually loves...
But, according to the great Lightsnake, none of that would have prevented Vader from getting access to that knowledge. And, of course, Sadow also went into hybernation directly when landing on Yavin 4. His freaking Massassi mutated themselves using his Sith Alchemy apparatus and the "experiments Sadow conducted" on them, where either carried out by themselves or by a sleeping Sadow. 🙄
Well, for starters: Either Lightsnake is a liar, which is why we refer to him as "Liesnake" here, or he suffers from that mysterious decease known as internet alzheimer. Why? Because, if that wasn't the case, I wouldn't be able to pull out THIS LINK HERE where some guy called "Lightsnake" is posting that:"Oh, and KJA's quote on when I asked him who the strongest Sith was? "If LFL did a comic that pit Exar against Palpatine, we could find out!"
LOL. Owned yourself once again, Liesnake. It never gets old, huh? [/B]
