Starkiller and Darth Caedus Vs. Orbalisk Bane and Exar Kun

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
He was the only dark lord of the time.

There was obviously no other dark lords at the time or even sith lords for that matter, so the quote very well refers to those who preceded him.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

There's nothing that would put Kun above everyone before him, even with unknowns like Ragnos.

Lets see, what exactly has ragnos done other than getting his ass wiped for him by a jedi knight? Oh that's right nothing

Theres plenty of shit kun did to put him above ludo and naga.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

It's just as retarded as the quote about Kun. Revan was 1 out of 2 dark lords, while Kun was the only one.

But seriously whatever, i am not going to bother building a case for mr ponytailed sith lord when i can go to the gym and get pumped. See ya.

My-oh-my. Looks like it is time for some intervention here...

Originally posted by Eminence
The problem lies in substantiating the value of many of those feats relative to what we see in the rest of the saga. He defeated Vodo in a duel. Terrific.

How capable a duelist was Vodo?

He stalemated Qel-Droma in a duel. Terrific.

How capable a duelist was Qel-Droma?

I understand the skepticism here and, indeed, it's quite justified, because we don't have much feats from the respective combatants Kun faced. However. I think one can try to cast a general judgement on the abilities of the opponents.

Let's start with Vodo. Vodo is seen to be the Jedi Orders main lightsaber instructor in time of the TOTJ era comics (provided that students of other masters are brought to him to master the art). If that position says anything about respective skill, he could be put into one category with the likes of Sora Bulq, Cin Drallig or Anoon Bondara. Note that they all, while very good with a lightsaber, weren't equipped with enough overal duelling capability to stand up to the likes of Dooku (Bulq), Anakin (Drallig) or Maul (Bondara). They point is that all those individuals had, most likely, very good technical abilities, but lacked the sufficient force potential (or mastery) to keep up with the top-dogs in their time. But, well, the same can be said about Kas'im.
A, possible, better hint to Vodo's lightsaber skill is his weapon of choice. A stick that he wields "more powerful than a lightsaber". This quotes actually could be taken as an indication of the idea that Vodo is, de facto, the best overall duellist of the Jedi Order in Kun's time. An idea that is bolstered by the fact, that they wait for Vodo before starting the conclave on Deneba.

And Qel-Droma? The mere fact that he was capable to withstand the attack of a hatred-driven Jedi in melee combat alone is impressive, considering he didn't have any force powers any longer and was - pretty much - out of training for almost a decade before Vima Sunrider did visit him. The ability to take it up with Jedi in melee combat is usually reserved for extremely well trained individuals (Echani, Mandalorians, other mercenaries) and even most of them, usually, don't manage to hold their own against a Jedi for a long amount of time. Again: This speaks for a very high degree of technical lightsaber mastery in Ulics case, again mirroring the above mentioned individuals, with the difference that Ulic once had a nice amount of force potential (apparently) to back that skills up.

Yet, one should forget that Kun's confrontations with both individuals happened before he completed his journey to the Dark Side (which happened after the fight with Qel-Droma), while his later incarnation had the muse to toy with Vodo, who he had trouble defeating in their first engagement. Nonetheless, even then Vodo told him that Kun was the most gifted student he had - presumably over a time span of more than 500 years. That would put Kun on a podest with duellist receiving similar accolades from their peers and - in this particular case - one could think about Dooku here...

I myself have historically been one of Kun's most consistent supporters, but in regards primarily to his skill with a lightsaber there simply isn't anything contextual to work off of. He wielded what was at the time a unique lightsaber, modifying or creating a style around its use; many take this and attribute to him a Mace Windu-class ability with the lightsaber. But quite contrary to Windu and his Vaapad - which have been tested against not only multiple opponents using multiple fighting styles but some of the very best of opponents the mythos have to offer - we can't actually effectively gauge how efficient Kun's style would have been against opponents other than Vodo in the grand scheme of things.

Excuse me, Faunus, but this statement is devoid of logic. When you can't judge Vodo's skill in comparison to that of the PT era Jedi, you can't use the fact that Mace fought the best in the PT era to conclude that his fighting style is, somehow, better than Kuns. That doesn't make sense. Neither can you simply state that person X from the PT is more powerful / a better duellist then person Y from Kun's time, based on nothing, and then draw conclusions from there.

Kun was, at the end of his "life", the most powerful individual, the "darkest power" and the best duellist in the Galaxy, bar none. Something that Mace can't claim for himself.

Even the accolades he receives are dubious when looked at as part of a bigger picture. Kun and Qel-Droma are both noted in the narration of The Sith War to be "master swordsmen." One might take this and immediately throw both of them up there with Kenobi and Skywalker. Then of course, we point out that in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, the Jedi Knight Roan Shryne is granted similar praise, deemed a "master of the sword."

Roan Shryne proves unable to defeat a neophyte Darth Vader.

Hasty generalization and therefor logical fallacious.
I agree with you that almost anybody in the saga is praised as "master swordsman", but this still requires some case-by-case examination and not general dismissing that description, because certain people who did, well, not too good with the weapon have written that term next to their names.

Then there is the crucial question of his speed in combat. Put simply, how fast can he move relative to others in the saga? A debate with Lightsnake a few months ago brought up again the idea of upper-tier Force-users simply dodging the Force-blasts Kun is so well-known for and blitzing him to take the fight to close quarters. I initially opposed this argument, but looking into it now it makes sense. There has never been the slightest indication that Kun can keep up with the speed demons like Bane, Mace Windu, Yoda, all of whom he is often pitted against. We have, to my knowledge, no way of even confidently placing him in any vague tier.

Taking a look at the source material could help...
CLICK ME

For some people who don't see what happens. We see two thugs aiming their blasters at Kun, who comes walking out of Nadds tomb without a lightsaber in hand. So, obviously, Kun took out the blade, ignited it, took the first guy out, crossed several meters of distance between the first and the second guy, and did cut the second guy down too.

I will recant my request that someone substantiate the depth of his studies; that appears to be one field that, upon further investigation, has been sufficiently explained. To be clear, the size of his arsenal of techniques is not in question. But until someone can explain to me how 1) his dueling ability can be quantified or 2) his command of the Force can be put into perspective, I can't see a reason to use him in a standard versus thread.

Okay...Here you go...
"Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a resource of energy" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.49). A process during which "Gantoris is burned to ashes" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.35).
So, let me make this clear: The ionized air-particles of Exar Kun's spirit do still hold enough power to reduce Gantoris to ashes with a force drain. Which is a pretty remarkeable demonstration of force powers, considering that the only other being who has reduced a force user to ashes (but in that instance with force lightning), is Sidious himself, who grilled some Sith Alchemy adepts. But, unlike Kun in the sited instance, Sidious was in possession of his complete power during the incidend. Kun wasn't...

"Exar Kun possessed a great many other dark powers that he was unable to harness without the energy he needed to fuel his disembodied will. Some of these powers he was able to channel through Kyp, Gantoris and Streen to archive his ends." (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.50)

Okay. This actually implies that all powers that Kun was capable of using with the "help" of one of Luke's students, he could have performed on his own, if he still had his original body. That means, that a living Kun would have the ability to rip post-DE-Luke spirit out of his body with a single force attack (an attack he, originally, channeled through Kyp). Which is pretty nifty, considering that Luke was barely put on his ass by a lightning barrage from DE Sidious, that the Emperor fired to kill his redeemed apprentice. Not to mention that he could summon tornadoes (force wind) and even as a damn spirit was able to force choke all of Luke's students at once (which are multiple simultaneous applications of telekinesis).

But to help you with putting his command over the force into perspective:
"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun (keep in mind that even Lord Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know about the Sith powers" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.50)"

This, actually, reveals that:

a) Kun's claim that he mastered everything Sadow / Nadd left behind was justified (because he apparently did know everything that there was to know about Sith powers).
b) Kun's knowledge and control over the Dark Side powers does eclipse that of Lord Vader.

You may also remember the statement of Kevin J. Anderson, who said that, to find out who the most powerful Sith ever is, one should put DE Sidious and Kun into a fight and see who wins.

Way to put him on his ass, Nai.

Why do you have to compare kuns command of the dark side to that of vader? While i do believe vader is a beast in the force like galen, he is by no means a force scholar like exar kun, palpatine and darth bane(vader's command of the force is restricted to mostly TK and the same can be said for galen with an additional asset of lightning).

And if you can, would you be able to substantiate the quote of exar kun being described as "once the most powerful and dangerous of the dark lords of the sith"? I am very eager to find out if the quote refers to the dark lords that preceded him.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Let's start with Vodo. Vodo is seen to be the Jedi Orders main lightsaber instructor in time of the TOTJ era comics (provided that students of other masters are brought to him to master the art). If that position says anything about respective skill, he could be put into one category with the likes of Sora Bulq, Cin Drallig or Anoon Bondara. Note that they all, while very good with a lightsaber, weren't equipped with enough overal duelling capability to stand up to the likes of Dooku (Bulq), Anakin (Drallig) or Maul (Bondara). They point is that all those individuals had, most likely, very good technical abilities, but lacked the sufficient force potential (or mastery) to keep up with the top-dogs in their time. But, well, the same can be said about Kas'im.

A, possible, better hint to Vodo's lightsaber skill is his weapon of choice. A stick that he wields "more powerful than a lightsaber". This quotes actually could be taken as an indication of the idea that Vodo is, de facto, the best overall duellist of the Jedi Order in Kun's time. An idea that is bolstered by the fact, that they wait for Vodo before starting the conclave on Deneba.

And Qel-Droma? The mere fact that he was capable to withstand the attack of a hatred-driven Jedi in melee combat alone is impressive, considering he didn't have any force powers any longer and was - pretty much - out of training for almost a decade before Vima Sunrider did visit him. The ability to take it up with Jedi in melee combat is usually reserved for extremely well trained individuals (Echani, Mandalorians, other mercenaries) and even most of them, usually, don't manage to hold their own against a Jedi for a long amount of time. Again: This speaks for a very high degree of technical lightsaber mastery in Ulics case, again mirroring the above mentioned individuals, with the difference that Ulic once had a nice amount of force potential (apparently) to back that skills up.

Yet, one should forget that Kun's confrontations with both individuals happened before he completed his journey to the Dark Side (which happened after the fight with Qel-Droma), while his later incarnation had the muse to toy with Vodo, who he had trouble defeating in their first engagement. Nonetheless, even then Vodo told him that Kun was the most gifted student he had - presumably over a time span of more than 500 years. That would put Kun on a podest with duellist receiving similar accolades from their peers and - in this particular case - one could think about Dooku here...

Excuse me, Faunus, but this statement is devoid of logic. When you can't judge Vodo's skill in comparison to that of the PT era Jedi, you can't use the fact that Mace fought the best in the PT era to conclude that his fighting style is, somehow, better than Kuns. That doesn't make sense. Neither can you simply state that person X from the PT is more powerful / a better duellist then person Y from Kun's time, based on nothing, and then draw conclusions from there.

Kun was, at the end of his "life", the most powerful individual, the "darkest power" and the best duellist in the Galaxy, bar none. Something that Mace can't claim for himself.

For some people who don't see what happens. We see two thugs aiming their blasters at Kun, who comes walking out of Nadds tomb without a lightsaber in hand. So, obviously, Kun took out the blade, ignited it, took the first guy out, crossed several meters of distance between the first and the second guy, and did cut the second guy down too.

Okay...Here you go...
"Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a resource of energy" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.49). A process during which "Gantoris is burned to ashes" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.35).
So, let me make this clear: The ionized air-particles of Exar Kun's spirit do still hold enough power to reduce Gantoris to ashes with a force drain. Which is a pretty remarkeable demonstration of force powers, considering that the only other being who has reduced a force user to ashes (but in that instance with force lightning), is Sidious himself, who grilled some Sith Alchemy adepts. But, unlike Kun in the sited instance, Sidious was in possession of his complete power during the incidend. Kun wasn't...

"Exar Kun possessed a great many other dark powers that he was unable to harness without the energy he needed to fuel his disembodied will. Some of these powers he was able to channel through Kyp, Gantoris and Streen to archive his ends." (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.50)

Okay. This actually implies that all powers that Kun was capable of using with the "help" of one of Luke's students, he could have performed on his own, if he still had his original body. That means, that a living Kun would have the ability to rip post-DE-Luke spirit out of his body with a single force attack (an attack he, originally, channeled through Kyp). Which is pretty nifty, considering that Luke was barely put on his ass by a lightning barrage from DE Sidious, that the Emperor fired to kill his redeemed apprentice. Not to mention that he could summon tornadoes (force wind) and even as a damn spirit was able to force choke all of Luke's students at once (which are multiple simultaneous applications of telekinesis).

But to help you with putting his command over the force into perspective:
"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun (keep in mind that even Lord Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know about the Sith powers" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.50)"

This, actually, reveals that:

a) Kun's claim that he mastered everything Sadow / Nadd left behind was justified (because he apparently did know everything that there was to know about Sith powers).
b) Kun's knowledge and control over the Dark Side powers does eclipse that of Lord Vader.

You may also remember the statement of Kevin J. Anderson, who said that, to find out who the most powerful Sith ever is, one should put DE Sidious and Kun into a fight and see who wins. [/B]

Where was this? And under whose authority is he to make such a statement? We've seen ample proof from other sith lords that put them above Kun.

Who are these other sith?

Or do they happen to be
Caedus
Bane
Revan?
Galen marek?
Nihilus
The sith emperor?(possibly an extremely powerful individual)

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Who are these other sith?

Or do they happen to be
Caedus
Bane
Revan?
Galen marek?
Nihilus
The sith emperor?(possibly an extremely powerful individual)

Not Nihilus.. But the rest yea. I would also put Ragnos on there for ruling the ancient sith empire for over 100 years. I would also put Nadd up there..Nadd's holocron took Bane 10 years to learn. Kun learned from Sadow's teachings for 6 months. No brainer in my opinion.

Do you agree with the sith emperor possibly surpassing kun?

Wolverine
Caedus

Probable.

Caedus was referred to as "one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time" on the back cover of Invincible, with a command of the Force that "surpasses his grandfather, Darth Vader," and then referred to as "the most powerful of the Sith Lords" (much like Kun himself). It all depends on how much faith to place in the text on the back cover; the purpose of which is to entice the reader to read. On the back of one of the Hand of Thrawn books, it mentions that the returnimposter of the late Grand Admiral Thrawn is the greatest threat that the New Republic has ever faced.

Was it really?

Well, obviously not.

Still, Caedus has demonstrated impressive swordsmanship and a wide-ranging command of the Force, able to duel with the likes of Luke Skywalker and survive.

Wolverine
Bane

[Very?] possibly.

Nebaris tends to slant Bane's feats, but for the most part, he is right about the impressive nature of their scope and scale.

Wolverine
Revan?

Possibly.

I'll leave this to Veneficus.

Wolverine
Galen marek?

Marek is not, in the strictest sense, a Sith Lord. He's more or less a cultist, a pawn of aboth legitimate Sith Lords; he is essentially a far more powerful, less subtle version of Mara Jade or Lumiya. That doesn't preclude the possibility that he is more powerful than Kun, just that he cannot be ranked among the Sith.

Wolverine
Nihilus

If his feats are provided in context, then very possible.

Wolverine
The sith emperor?(possibly an extremely powerful individual)

Unknown.

Personally, if I were to make a list of people who had to be on the same plateau as Kun, it would probably include the Emperor, Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Marka Ragnos, Darth Caedus, Darth Bane, Darth Plagueis, Darth Revan, Darth Vader, and Count Dooku.

Originally posted by Gideon
Personally, if I were to make a list of people who had to be on the same plateau as Kun, it would probably include the Emperor, Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Marka Ragnos, Darth Caedus, Darth Bane, Darth Plagueis, Darth Revan, Darth Vader, and Count Dooku.

No Mace Windu or Kyp Durron?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Wait WHAT? Where do you get the comparison between Vodo and the rest of the Jedi/Sith you just mentioned. You have NO idea what their skill level relative to each other is, and you're just speculating because Vodo used a wooden stick. So what? If he showed us anything that would put him in the top tier of lightsaber combatants, maybe you'd have a case.

This is the entire point of this debate here, DS. Either we go by assumptions or we can't compare characters from different eras at all, because they all just demonstrate their abilities in relation to their contemporaries and there is no objective measure to compare people of different eras.

Or, well, we go by assumptions, which means that the only thing we should debate here is, if certain assumptions make sense. Does it make sense to assume that Vodo is a duellist with far above average skill, considering he's called an "experienced warrior", considering he's 600 years old, considering we see him training Jedi in the art of lightsaber construction on the Jedi's main training facility and - finally - considering he managed to put Exar Kun on his ass, using a stick. The same Exar Kun, that should rise to the most powerful being in the Galaxy roughly six months after this event. Now, tell me: Does that make sense?

Or does it make more sense to either assume that Vodo was relatively unskilled? Or shall we simply toss the concept of cross-era fights out of the window, because "we can't compare characters from different eras exactly"? If you want a assumption-free debate, you better not deal with a fictional universe...

Can we not agree that putting the most powerful sith lord ever on his ass alone puts him equal to Kun at the very LEAST, if not above him?

If "most powerful" would definetely refer to force powers and combat skill - and it doesn't, according to Leland Chee - than you would have a point.

Which is irrelevant considering the number of powerful individuals in Mace's time as the "prime of the Jedi". Nobody in the TOTJ comics showed anything other than Kun and Qel Droma and their accomplishments don't warrant them a top tier position.

Lmfao.
Firstly: It says "Golden Age of the Jedi" and that statement, once again, contains no reference to lightsaber skill or force powers.
Secondly: If that's your argument, then, I suppose, Marka Ragnos was the most powerful Sith ever, because of ruling the "Golden Age of the Sith" with Exar Kun being the second most powerful, because he was about to create a new "golden age of the Sith", right?

Quite frankly, it doesn't make sense to assume that lightsaber combat is the best in an age that saw the decline of said art in the past 1000 years, with only one practioner of the ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat being seen in most of the source material. Those Jedi didn't have any reason to be good in blade VS blade combat, because they lived under the notion that the only opponents they had that used lightsabers were driven to extinction 1000 years in the past. And, wow, in fact we see the one master of the "duelling style" trashing almost anybody he faces in the saga, while it is outright stated that most Jedi in the PT focused on the "diplomats style" (form VI) which had moves of all forms but lacked power in combat.

Mind you: I'm talking about the average skill level in terms of lightsaber technique here...

Great, we see Obiwan and QuiGon fight off droidekas which have automatic weapons while the pistols of the Naddists appear to be semiautomatic.

I wonder how they "appear semiautomatic" considering Kun cuts them down so fast that none of them manages to pull the trigger, which was the entire point here.

I think we have addressed this in the past. Kun used a sith ritual to retain a lot of his power as a spirit. He didn't transfer his spirit like Sidious, or roam the galaxy like Nadd. He retained enough power to fight a fledgling jedi academy.

I don't think that you adressed anything in the past. That aside, the JA SB outright claims that there were tons of techniques he wasn't capable of using due to his lack of power. Not even talking about the power added by his amulets, which he certainly wasn't wearing being a ghost. Arguing against logic and established canon doesn't get you anywhere.

Nobody is claiming that he wasn't powerful in the force. The argument seemed to carry over to lightsaber combat.

Which can't be resolved. See above. Without making assumptions of any kind, we're bound to just discuss fights of characters who are appearing in the same era. And, hell, even those would be hard to resolve, so we should actually stick to fights that have really been shown in some source and even then, gosh, there is still enough room for interpretation (see Anakin VS Dooku / Mace VS Sidious in the past).

I hope you're not seriously comparing their power. Kun had the intention of killing, Sidious had the intention of torturing. We have seem what Sidious can do once he wants to kill.

But sure, DS.
Sidious can reduce people to ashes using a force attack - so can Kun's freaking spirit...

1. From reading GAOTS and FOTSE it doesn't appear that Sadow had anything but a few scrolls with him. So while it's impressive to learn everything from Sadow's teachings, it's not nearly as impressive as lets say, learning from the underground cities of Malachor V as well as the tombs of Korriban, unless you want to imply that Sadow's knowledge>Underground cities filled with tomes, scrolls, and holocrons.

Holy shit. Yes, DS, let us just ignore that the narrator claimed how Kun did unearth a "trove of Sith Alchemical Lore", which is claimed right next to the picture showing us a Sith Alchemy labor in the size of damn football stadion, as can be seen here:

CLICK ME

If that isn't enough: Did it ever occure to you, that Sadow, possible, had centuries of time to experiment on Yavin 4 and we know that he did some experiments there, considering he did mutate all of his Massassi slaves (thousands upon thousands of beings)? That aside from creating that nice Sithwyrm thingy which guarded his knowledge. And, of course, a Sith Lord can't store additional information and write it down for a possible successor as Nadd stated Sadow did. Hell. The "Essential Guide to the Force" sites Nadd as "one of the most powerful Sith alchemists" (p.173) with Sidious himself on the following page noting that Sadow was "too generous with his knowledge" and that "after his [Sadows] death, his secrets were gained by Freedom Nadd who passed them on to Exar Kun". With, obviously, additonal material found by Kun later (see proof above) that was, probably, completely lost when Kun was defeated.

2. It's debatable whether he learned more than Nadd. Not to mention, Nadd also had Adas' holocron, which he used to subjugate Onderon.

Actually, that is not debateable, because we see Kun recovering parts of Sadow's knowledge that Nadd hasn't touched. Proof: The giant Sithwyrm protecting it was still where it was before, Sadow's amulet was, where the Ancient Sith Lord left it (Nadd would have taken that thing with him, if he could). Not to mention how the narrator claims that Kun had "more knowledge than he could ever use", with the JA SB (see quote above) actually backing that up.

Where was this? And under whose authority is he to make such a statement? We've seen ample proof from other sith lords that put them above Kun.

Lightsnake went to ask Anderson, if Kun is more powerful than DE Sidious, and Anderson replied that one of them is the most powerful Sith. This is the same Anderson who assisted in designing both: the Ancient Sith and DE Sidious.

And you have seen "ample proof" from other Sith Lords that put them above Kun? Where exactly? Unless you have discovered the "force powers energy used" scale somewhere in the LFL HQ, there is no objective measure of "how powerful a force action was". Especially not, when we have Sidious himself claiming that one doesn't need to be powerful to ravage space-time itself with a force storm, and Yoda stating that "size doesn't matter", which technically means it wouldn't be harder to force push a planet then to force push a simple stone.

And even then, Kun has either mind-controlled or frozen ten-thousands of individuals without paying much attention to what he was doing, drained an entire servant race, reduced a force user to ashes with a single force attack (while being a spirit), force choked 8 force users at once (while being a spirit) and, if he had a normal body, he would have been able to overpower the post-DE-version of Luke Skywalker with a single force attack (the one he channeled through Kyp in the actual story). I don't see much "ample proof" to put other individuals above that.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
No Mace Windu or Kyp Durron?

Holy penis, I completely forgot about Durron. Him too. Windu? Eh... no.

Wolverine2179
Why do you have to compare kuns command of the dark side to that of vader? While i do believe vader is a beast in the force like galen, he is by no means a force scholar like exar kun, palpatine and darth bane(vader's command of the force is restricted to mostly TK and the same can be said for galen with an additional asset of lightning).

the Complete Star Wars Enyclopedia, Volume III, pafe 188
Under Vader's relentless tutelage, the Apprentice all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat and learned to wield many fearsome dark side powers.

Vader certainly isn't a scholar par excellence, but he's not exactly the poster Sith of ignorance, either.

Originally posted by Gideon

Personally, if I were to make a list of people who had to be on the same plateau as Kun, it would probably include the Emperor, Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Marka Ragnos, Darth Caedus, Darth Bane, Darth Plagueis, Darth Revan, Darth Vader, and Count Dooku.

I agree. But I would also include Mace Windu, Episode 3 Obi-Wan, Galen Marek, and (Maybe) Naga Sadow. But that's just me. Oh, and the versions of Palpatine that I think would be even to Kun would be Dark Empire Sidious and ROTS Sidious. As for Luke, I say any Post-Episode 6 Version (That includes DE, NJO, and LoTF)

You lost me here:

Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
Episode 3 Obi-Wan

😐

What, you didn't see Obi-Wan block the Death Star's superlaser with his ghosty powers? That's the real reason it blew it up.

Ha! Yeah, Lucien's right! Obi-Wan blew up the Death Star! 😆

Originally posted by Gideon
Vader certainly isn't a scholar par excellence, but he's not exactly the poster Sith of ignorance, either.

Most interesting. By the way what exactly was the "purple force beam" that vader launched at marek during the non canon second duel?

You know i'm actually glad that marek brutally beat vaders ass in the game, it just shows how much pain and shit vader can tolerate(3 massive pillars pounding him, him getting his helmet torn off and then getting smashed through a huge wall), i think any other force user other than the exception of palpatine and bane with orbalisks would die if the first 3 massive pillars dropped on them let alone survive the entire duel.

Whats amusing is that after getting wtf pwned, he only suffers a blackout, gets back right onto his feet and gets unharmed by galen mareks suicide attack(and in the DS path, he gives marek another long battle).

Some people(not you duh) severely underestimte vader, thinking he is ignorant and one of the weakest of the mythos.

I believe that vader is potentially a top tier combatant in the force, of course i am relucant to believe he is better than caedus, bane, sidious, marek and maybe 1 more.

This is my opinion (and thus it is automatically the only viable one) on Vader, so take it for whatever it's worth to you:

Perhaps it's because I'm only eighteen and did not see Star Wars when it first came out, thus making me somewhat immune to the badassness that is Darth Vader. Similar circumstances have occured with Journey; my life does not revolve around former lead singer Steve Perry and I am thus able to enjoy the music they have put out with subsequent singers. But the truth to the matter is that I didn't find Vader extraordinarily badass. The true badass of A New Hope was Tarkin by a country mile; blowing up Alderaan, barking orders at Vader, ect.

So from his initial entry, Vader was immediately displayed as an aggrandized henchmen. The notion that he is the Badass King of Badasses came out of nowhere since it was shown within the movie that he deferred to the whims of a corpse-like bureaucrat. Now, don't get me wrong, he was definitely intimidating. And the "I find your lack of faith disturbing" line was a crowning moment of awesome. But I regarded him no more or less than a more intelligent version of Frankenstein's monster. He was an enforcer, a hunter, a killer; not a mastermind or galactic despot.

I think the overall depiction of Vader is a surprisingly accurate one that embodies Lucas's intent for the character. Vader is a lethal weapon; a blunt instrument capable of great destruction. He is meant to be a locus of fear and a walking representation of the Empire's wrath. He is very powerful, especially for his time. He is seen as an unyielding, doggedly methodical, inexorable killing machine.

But that's it. He wasn't meant to be a scholar whose knowledge of the Force is epic in size and scale. He's meant to be a high end enforcer who is capable of defeating skilled opponents; but he's also physically and psychologically damaged. Limited.

I don't like the idea that he's the second most powerful Sith ever or in the top five. Vader's status among other Sith should be somewhat vague. You should know that he's second only to the Emperor in his time, and that's on a reasonably high plateau of overall skill, but he shouldn't be able to take on everyone and win.

I never believed that vader could take up on everybody and win, not against people like bane , caedus, exar kun, marek and sidious. I feel vader in the top 10 sith is reasonable but top 5 is a little bit far fetched.

I am the same age as you and i too did not see star wars when it first came out, it was actually when i watched the OT for the first time that something drew me into vader, it was that something that made me believe vader is a very deeply thought character and not an avatar of pure evil like what he was initially portrayed to be.

Its just my personal opinion but that doesn't mean i have a boner for vader, i just simply believe he is one of the greatest characters in star wars that i feel most of the audience can feel for him. Hell i didn't care about darth maul, sidious, dooku, mace or yoda. Vader/anakin and luke were the only characters i "cared" abotu when watching the saga.