From SWF
Hi, I'm not sure how many posts I'll make here or if I'll make any more than this one at all, but I thought I should clear some things up in here.
Firstly, the SWF thread was specifically characters being true to their games. Meaning, we aren't taking into consideration anything that's not in the games and especially nothing from any anime, cartoon, manga, comic book/graphic novel, or movie. So there very much are stipulations applied to the thread that you may or may not been aware of.
Applying that knowledge, you would have to admit that Mewtwo can only have 4 moves at any one given time and that they would have to be set-up before the match starts; no changing moves in the middle of the match because that's not how pokemon played (IE, true to its game). So, before you could consider Mewtwo completely destroying Samus with an overabundance of moves, you would have to declare which ones he had before starting the match.
Next, the moves can only be what they are in the games. When he uses the attack "Psychic," it doesn't do damage directly to their brain. The move is shown to hit on the outside from the animation and also deals damage in conjunction with the type of the pokemon leading to the belief that it hits the pokemon's body, not their "brain."
The level cap for pokemon is 100. The highest Mewtwo can go is level 100 and that stats he can achieve there with any items or buffs he may be under. It appears that Mewtwo's highest health (according to Serebii.net) is 416 before items. If he took a hyper beam from a normal type, taking into consideration is sp def, he would probably take about 150 damage. It would take 3 or 4, depending on items/buffs, of those shots to kill him. Of course hyper beam has a cool-down time after it, so you can't use it in rapid succession, but that should give an idea of what he is looking at.
Then you look at Samus. Samus can carry and use a nearly unlimited amount of weapons. She has never picked up a weapon and had to replace another because because she couldn't carry any more. In Super Metroid, the game that I would use as a reference for Samus in nearly any argument, the beams stacked. On top of them granting additional attributes such as freezing, going through walls, etc., they also multiplied damage. In Super Metroid you could say the regular Power beam does 1 damage. You can have the Charge, Ice, Wave, and Plasma or Spazer (not both) each providing an additional 2x damage. If you charge the beam, the Charge beam provides 5x instead of 2x and makes the shot slightly bigger.
In addition to those beams she has missiles(255) that deal x5 damage and super missiles(100) that deal x25 damage. These cannot be stacked with beams though, but can be fired much more rapidly though limited in number. Bombs deal little damage, around 2x or 3x damage, but powerbombs deal super missile damage to an AOE of the 1 screen in Super Metroid. She also has the screw attack which causes her to be invincible to all projectiles in her universe (except for the SA-X screw attacking into her, if you consider that a projectile) and the only enemies that aren't killed by it instantly are bosses and black pirates. The space jump boots allow her to screw attack infinitely. Not to mention the speed booster that allows her to run faster, be invincible to the same extent as the screw attack, and offers the shinespark which does deal a lot of damage to bosses.
Her different suit upgrades provides a stellar defense from most environments and reduces attack damage per stacked suit by 2x. With the Varia suit she cannot be frozen, general heat and cold don't do damage to her, and the acid from Brinstar doesn't effect her. The Gravity suit allows for free movement in liquids and allows her to not be damaged by lava. If you were to go to other games in the franchise, then there would be the dark/light suit that protects against dark attacks and environments. The Phazon suit protects against radiation, the PED takes this further by healing her with phazon. The Fusion suit allows her to absorb X parasite, but that's fairly moot in this debate.
Considering this information, I believe that a few opinions should be rethought or should give more detailed reasons for why Mewtwo should beat Samus.
Also, can someone give the optimal build for a Mewtwo fighting Samus? I'm not a huge pokemon fan, I played it a bit when I was younger, but haven't played in a long time. I just pulled those numbers from that website I cited earlier, so I could be way off on that, admittedly.
Thanks for reading.
Re: From SWF
Originally posted by coreygames
The level cap for pokemon is 100. The highest Mewtwo can go is level 100 and that stats he can achieve there with any items or buffs he may be under. It appears that Mewtwo's highest health (according to Serebii.net) is 416 before items
As of there, you lost yourself a reader. Doesn't matter if you take game alone into consideration. Numbers is nothing but an elaborate system applied by developers to create relative balance and is in no way relative to the power of a character, no matter their lack of display beyond numbers.
It differ from character to character and game to game. Otherwise it's so easy to say that a World of Warcraft Hunter can kill Mewtwo in a single shot, since Mewtwo has less health than half an arrow. It can also be said that since the Warcraft Hunter has armor penetration, it doesn't matter if Mewtwo can put up a defensive move.
Alexstrasza has 127.000.000 healthpoint for example. According to game mechanics, it'd take someone like Mewtwo forever to even significantly harm her, while in truth Alexstrasza Vs. Mewtwo would be an incredibly even encounter despite she having 126.999.684 more in health. (Well, maybe not, but that's not because of her game numbers. Warcraft characters are pretty insane)
Bottom line: Don't use numbers. It will just have you end up looking like an idiot, since numbers can't be used when debating two different games.
No, I will use numbers because numbers are solid. Are you saying that you cannot trade money for pizza? You are using one unit of trade for a different unit.
Using the numbers, you can make a ratio of how much damage an attack does to the max amount of life they have. From there you can get a percentile out of total life that remains. Then, you can take a similar attack from another game and make the same comparison and reach some sort of understanding of the powers you are working with.
If you just go by "eyeballing" what they can do against each other, you are most certainly giving Mewtwo and even worse chance. The only thing Mewtwo is actually shown to do in game is stand still, occasionally dodge attacks, and do long ass animations of him doing things to another stationary pokemon.
I fail to see why numbers are useless using an understanding of direct ratios.
Originally posted by coreygames
No, I will use numbers because numbers are solid. Are you saying that you cannot trade money for pizza? You are using one unit of trade for a different unit.Using the numbers, you can make a ratio of how much damage an attack does to the max amount of life they have. From there you can get a percentile out of total life that remains. Then, you can take a similar attack from another game and make the same comparison and reach some sort of understanding of the powers you are working with.
If you just go by "eyeballing" what they can do against each other, you are most certainly giving Mewtwo and even worse chance. The only thing Mewtwo is actually shown to do in game is stand still, occasionally dodge attacks, and do long ass animations of him doing things to another stationary pokemon.
I fail to see why numbers are useless using an understanding of direct ratios.
Using numbers is not solid. It's as far from it as you can possibly get. A Half-Life human has 100 health points, while a regular Warcraft human has anything from 50 to 50.000. Numbers are installed into a game and can not be used to compare two characters from different games, since the different games has different developers and various ideas of what balance is. They also have different scaling systems depending on their level of challenge.
You can't gauge two characters by their numbers, because the numbers aren't in agreement with eachother. The developers quite possibly doesn't share the same concept of how much this particular attack should damage a human, or how much beating in comparison to a human that character can take.
The healthpoint from one character to another isn't a percental discussion but rather a developer discussion and isn't legitimate in an actual debate between two characters from different games.
I do not understand how you can reach such a conclusion. If a Half-Life human has 100 health and a Warcraft human has 50 health you could still make a correlation.
Let's say you look at a mini-gun and make a few scenarios. Leaving out headshots, let's say you can generally survive about 4-5 hits from the minigun in Half-Life. So that number would be roughly 20-25% of your total life. In Warcraft, a Human can tank 10 hits before dieing. So they would suffer 10% per hit.
Therefore, if a Warcraft Human shot a Half-Life human with a Warcraft mini-gun, they would deal 10 damage to the Half-Life human because 10% of 100 is equal to 10. In comparison, if the Half-Life Human shot the Warcraft Human with a Half-Life mini gun, he would deal 10-12.5 damage where 20-25% of 50 equals that.
When comparing something like, oh let's say... Samus' stacked beam against Mewtwo, all I have to do is correlate two moves from both universes. Using that, I can know how much damage her move does consistently. Going over to pokemon, I can find a similar move (I chose hyperbeam because it seemed closest to what the stacked beam would be. However, like I said in my final notes on that large post, I'm not an avid pokemon player, so I would take someone else' input on a better choice if they said something) and see how much damage it does to Mewtwo. From that I can get an understanding of how much damage the stacked beam would do.
I use this system because it is better than saying, "Oh he can survive this and that because I say so, or because I feel like it." It gives solid proof to what I'm saying with, of course, a bit of leeway in respect to numbers obviously not matching up perfectly.
"." = decimal point
"," = digit indicator
If your keyboard doesn't have a comma on it, then I'm sorry I didn't understand that some don't include that key.
Though, I hardly see the difference considering the percentile would be the same regardless of the size of the number if the same number of hits determines death. Instead, 10% of 50,000 would be 5,000. That means that the mini-gun of the Half-Life Human would still do the same ratio of damage to the Warcraft Human.
Also, I'm not completely and totally locked into this system. If another one can better show an accurate depiction of character abilities, then go ahead and show me. Overwhelming evidence of a better algorithm would change my mind. The problem is I just don't see one that would function without looking at the core of gameplay (IE, the numbers). I welcome your criticism, but what I'm saying is that I don't understand why this form of comparing data is irrational.
It's one of the reasons I decided to make a post at all here was to get more opinions than the ones at SWF being that I have been in this debate with those people in another thread that spanned from early 08 to early 09. After awhile, you start to hear the same things over and over again. To get a fresh outlook from new people that aren't also reiterating previously discussed/challenged notions nor making ridiculous claims is always welcome.
I would also like to point out that the tier list on the front page that he copied from the OP of the SWF thread is not finalized in any manner. It is still essentially what the author originally wrote with minor changes to it. Many of the characters have yet to even be debated so their position hasn't been proven yet and I feel they were just thrown on in assumed positions for no solid reason.
I also find it demeaning, to say the least, that people would say we are dumb for it. I feel some characters are un-rightfully high while others are far too low, but that doesn't matter to me right now. All I have been doing is trying to debate the placement for Samus which she currently has being that I am a huge supporter and have found little in the way of proof to deny her position.
Though, Ness/Lucas would be someone's best bet, in my opinion, to bring her down.
Edit:
"By his logic, Archimonde is invincible."
Elaborate?
Your essentially telling us that two incompatible forms of calculating game balance crash together and create logic?
No mate, not even close.... Unless they are of a similar type of game (ie: FPS, Fighting, Strategy, ect...) you'll get nothing concrete that way. Better to debate feats and story than dry numbers that offer no hint as to real skill.
A horrid example of how dry numbers can mislead...
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Rofl, he was just playing silly buggers there.P.S. By his logic, Archimonde is invincible.
More like: According to his logic, Alexstrasza is invincible 😛
139,450,000 health, healing abilities and she has a passive aura that disable you from the ability to attack 😛 One player can't attack another and certainly not her.
Like I said, I agree that it is an imperfect system, but I do think you are exaggerating a bit...
However, I did not see a single post in this thread that declared Mewtwo the victor that outlined a single in-game feat that he possesses. Could someone expand upon their earlier post or give their reasons why he should win, obviously outside of what I would exclaim as "the numbers"?
Originally posted by coreygames
Like I said, I agree that it is an imperfect system, but I do think you are exaggerating a bit...However, I did not see a single post in this thread that declared Mewtwo the victor that outlined a single in-game feat that he possesses. Could someone expand upon their earlier post or give their reasons why he should win, obviously outside of what I would exclaim as "the numbers"?
It's not simply imperfect. It's a flawed system. You can't use mechanics implimented by developers to determine the strength of various characters, and especially not when put up against characters from other games.
There's not really any exaggeration. With usage of mechanics rather than merely descriptions and potential feats, there are nearly no boundries. Alexstrasza would for a fact be invincible, and Archimonde virtually so.
I haven't played nearly as much Pokemon as I've wanted to. If you want professional Pokemon suggestions, I'll cross my fingers to you that the member Phantom Miria pays a visit at some point. I don't follow all the Pokémon debates that take place here in detail, but I imagine she's one of the most knowledgeable.
At least, the one I know that is.
Re: From SWF
Originally posted by coreygames
So, before you could consider Mewtwo completely destroying Samus with an overabundance of moves, you would have to declare which ones he had before starting the match
- Psychic
- Guard Swap
- Hidden Power/ Zen Headbutt
- Embargo
By opening with Guard Swap, Mewtwo will swap his defense with hers, and since Samus defense thanks to her armor is incredibly high, Mewtwo will have that advantage. Unfortunately for Samus, she will get Mewtwo's defense, which isn't near as high in terms of capabilities.
Embargo comes next. Via the concept of the ability, Samus is forced to resort to physical attacks given how her equipment is disabled (That would be the special features of her armor along with weapons)
Next up comes Psychic, which is the Pokemon equivalent of Telekinesis. This allows Mewtwo to put Samus where she's wanted by him, and because of her lack of gear capabilities, she can't do much resistance.
Then there's Hidden Power or Zen Headbutt, both attacks more than adequate to deal significant damage to someone of Mewtwo's defense, which in this case is Samus. Given how frail her armor will be at this point, given how it has the durability of Mewtwo, it'll break.
Rinse and repeat. That's one strategy.