Samus vs MewTwo

I don't do these debates for drama. I don't post on forums to get trolled.

Originally posted by Rapidash
Some KMC members are jerks. If you have a dislike for it already, you should leave right away. You have seen nothing yet.

I think I'll just take this advice and walk away. I seriously don't think there is an argument here, just two cliff faces staring each other down. Neither moving. Neither doing anything. The only thing crossing their gap is wasted time with only the potential for a chance to flirt with the exchange of ideas and understanding on the lips of the wind.

And much like the breeze, I'll be leaving now with little to no care of the events that transpire after this post. Thanks to the people that reasoned with me, and sorry I don't feel like staying and sticking it through. It's just not worth it, especially while I feel like I'm being tooled with.

Once again thanks,
Coreygames

Pardon me, but I don't see anyone trolling you? 😐 Is this a concession?

What is SWF, by the way?

Originally posted by coreygames
Got to Serebii dot net and search the AttackDex for Embargo. You will find this.

[B]Battle Effect:
Foe is unable to use held items

Nothing about electromagnetic forces nor mentioning anything about frying the item. It doesn't "stand." If anything, I still don't see why a sophisticated piece of technology wouldn't have a "Oh crap, turn me back on" button, system, or device. Its not like she's never been zapped before. [/B]

Do you take everything I say to the letter? EMP has no relevance to this fight, nor have I ever said anything about Embargo containing it or it being used against Samus.

Originally posted by Rapidash
What is SWF, by the way?

Smash World Forums. It's a website for competitive Super Smash Bros. play.

1) There are somethings that Embagro can't stop a pokemon from using. Take Marowak for example. Using Embargo on it doesn't stop it from using Bonemarage, Bone club, and whatever bone attacks it has because it can't stop Marowak from using its Bone Club. In a similar manner I don't think Enbargo can just prevent Samus from using her suit. Both things are essential to their character and to their attacks.

2) Guard swap switched any CHANGES in the opponents Def and Sp.Def. Samus doesn't change or enhance her def, she just enters battle fully ready to ****. There's no additions to her def that Mewtwo can steal. You might say "Well her extra suits add def" That's about as ridiculous as saying you can steal the extra def a pokemon gets by evolving.

3) The main reason we in the end decided that Samus beat Mewtwo is that Samus is a VERY bad match up for Mewtwo. First off, Mewtwos default best attack, Psychic, is practically worthless in this fight. For damage purposes attacking Samus would be like attacking a Steel pokemon, the damage from psychic is halved (and don't try to bring up the "Mewtwo can just attack Samus inside the suit argument" Defend Order says otherwise). On top of that, Samus receives various suits that reduce the damage done to her even further (up to 75%) so essentially, Psychic ends up doing 87.5% less damage then normal.

4) Samus would have the equivalent of a high def stat. I looked through the pokemon and choose one that I felt that would have equivalent def stats to compare Mewtwos attack to. I ended up finding Magnezone, a Steel/Electric pokemon that I would estimate weighs around the same weight as Samus. He has 115 base Def and 90 base Sp. Def. Given Mewtwos not as impressive attack stat and Samus high def stat he will probably try and use a special attack. The problem here is some of the special elements are already blocked by Samus suit. She's resistant to extreme heat and extreme cold by the Varia suit which are some of the more common special elements a Mewtwo may try and pick up. She becomes resistant to Dark from the Dark suit and becomes resistant to Poison by the Hazard Shield.
Someone suggested using Earthquake to abuse the potential electric weakness but Samus can stay in the air indefinitely preventing ground attacks. She just shuts a lot of crap down

5) Whatever she doesn't end up shutting down it practically negligible due to the fact that she has multiple ways obtain temporary invincibility. She can Screw Attack, Speed Booster, Shine Spark, and use the Hyper Mode on the PED suit. The PED suit is a big one as she can take any attack and only make it end up hurting her 100 damage and become invincible for 35 secs.

6) Samus attacks are mean. The Spazer causes her attacks to penetrate all inorganic matter (which would kinda include barrier and light screen) and the plasma beam penetrates all organic matter meaning if a beam happens to hit Mewtwo there's not much he can do to resist it. Now I know the beams won't 1 shot Mewtwo as the Ice beam does about 100 damage and the Missiles do about 200 damage. While Mewtwo (before suit resistances) ends up doing like 300-500 to Samus. That 300-500 gets reduced pretty quickly while that 100 CAN'T be resisted (it's kinda like Seismic Toss, unless you have something to flat out resist the damage it does full).

7) Samus has Powerbombs and can call in a Carpet Bombing with her ship.

For reference, Samus gets hit by a hyper beam equivalent of Psychic and looses about 500 HP (out of her 2400 HP). If we are talking absolute one of the peak Samus. She then gets this power to fire right back at the enemy.

Originally posted by Supersun
1) There are somethings that Embagro can't stop a pokemon from using. Take Marowak for example. Using Embargo on it doesn't stop it from using Bonemarage, Bone club, and whatever bone attacks it has because it can't stop Marowak from using its Bone Club. In a similar manner I don't think Enbargo can just prevent Samus from using her suit. Both things are essential to their character and to their attacks.

2) Guard swap switched any CHANGES in the opponents Def and Sp.Def. Samus doesn't change or enhance her def, she just enters battle fully ready to ****. There's no additions to her def that Mewtwo can steal. You might say "Well her extra suits add def" That's about as ridiculous as saying you can steal the extra def a pokemon gets by evolving.

3) The main reason we in the end decided that Samus beat Mewtwo is that Samus is a VERY bad match up for Mewtwo. First off, Mewtwos default best attack, Psychic, is practically worthless in this fight. For damage purposes attacking Samus would be like attacking a Steel pokemon, the damage from psychic is halved (and don't try to bring up the "Mewtwo can just attack Samus inside the suit argument" Defend Order says otherwise). On top of that, Samus receives various suits that reduce the damage done to her even further (up to 75%) so essentially, Psychic ends up doing 87.5% less damage then normal.

4) Samus would have the equivalent of a high def stat. I looked through the pokemon and choose one that I felt that would have equivalent def stats to compare Mewtwos attack to. I ended up finding Magnezone, a Steel/Electric pokemon that I would estimate weighs around the same weight as Samus. He has 115 base Def and 90 base Sp. Def. Given Mewtwos not as impressive attack stat and Samus high def stat he will probably try and use a special attack. The problem here is some of the special elements are already blocked by Samus suit. She's resistant to extreme heat and extreme cold by the Varia suit which are some of the more common special elements a Mewtwo may try and pick up. She becomes resistant to Dark from the Dark suit and becomes resistant to Poison by the Hazard Shield.
Someone suggested using Earthquake to abuse the potential electric weakness but Samus can stay in the air indefinitely preventing ground attacks. She just shuts a lot of crap down

5) Whatever she doesn't end up shutting down it practically negligible due to the fact that she has multiple ways obtain temporary invincibility. She can Screw Attack, Speed Booster, Shine Spark, and use the Hyper Mode on the PED suit. The PED suit is a big one as she can take any attack and only make it end up hurting her 100 damage and become invincible for 35 secs.

6) Samus attacks are mean. The Spazer causes her attacks to penetrate all inorganic matter (which would kinda include barrier and light screen) and the plasma beam penetrates all organic matter meaning if a beam happens to hit Mewtwo there's not much he can do to resist it. Now I know the beams won't 1 shot Mewtwo as the Ice beam does about 100 damage and the Missiles do about 200 damage. While Mewtwo (before suit resistances) ends up doing like 300-500 to Samus. That 300-500 gets reduced pretty quickly while that 100 CAN'T be resisted (it's kinda like Seismic Toss, unless you have something to flat out resist the damage it does full).

7) Samus has Powerbombs and can call in a Carpet Bombing with her ship.

For reference, Samus gets hit by a hyper beam equivalent of Psychic and looses about 500 HP (out of her 2400 HP). If we are talking absolute one of the peak Samus. She then gets this power to fire right back at the enemy.

1. There is an item called Bone Club. Embargo stops its use.

2. I don't think that's very ridiculous at all.

3. Psychic is telekinesis. It doesn't even matter, MewTwo can do anything he wants with Samus. The suit will break long before MewTwo tires of tossing her around.

4. There are many things wrong with that argument. One, you can't give Samus the numbers of a Pokemon based on your opinion. Especially when the typing of a Pokemon has absolutely nothing to do with the defense stats they get. MewTwo focuses on Special Attack. And if you want to play the typing game with Samus, then we can just give MewTwo an attack called Aura Sphere, which will do Super Effective damage and even bypass your Defense stat for Samus.

5. MewTwo has incredible barriers on his own. Light Screen and Reflect should be accessible to him.

6. Should you decide to use the real MewTwo and not try to limit him be excluding feats from his movie, Samus can't hurt MewTwo. MewTwo can dodge in this fight. He is faster than Dragonite, who can fly at Mach 2.

7. I want to know why a Hyper Beam is even close to the equivalent of a MewTwo Psychic attack. And why you're giving Samus her freaking Ship and damn near trying to Spite MewTwo.

Oh, on number 3, I need to know what you meant when you said "Defend Order says otherwise."

Ok seriously, NO ONE is debating against Anime Mewtwo > Samus, EVERYONE agrees to that. The OP brought this up in response to a threat that limits them all to their games only.

1) even without the Thick Club Marowak can still use his Bone Attacks so Embargo obviously can't stop ALL his items. Though yes, there may be SOME level of compromise of Embargo stopping some of Samus Weapons like Disable would.

2) Since we are speaking of what they do according to their games you still can't make a move out to be any different then what it does. Defense Swap does NOT swap the ENTIRE def stats. ONLY changes to it. (as someone tried to do earlier)

3) Defend Order is a move that calls your minions to protect you, raising your Def and Sp.Def. Since your Sp.Def is raised is lowers Psychic attacks meaning Psychic DOES have to travel through mediums. It can't just form around whatever it feels like and only affect it. If you can surround your self in insects to protect you from psychic attacks I'm sure a full body steel suit would work the same.

4) Aura Sphere was brought up briefly (does that pierce def?). It still fell victim to that Samus could easily Screw Attack it and not take damage, but yeah it was more or less agreed upon that Aura Sphere was Mewtwo's best bet against Samus. Still definitely not enough to give Mewtwo any kind of instant win or anything though.

5) Was never debating that he couldn't use them, was just debating that they wouldn't really be that effective as Samus attacks more or less can't be stopped by objects.

6) Pokedex...really...half of those things are more like legend then anything. Even if he can move faster then mach 2 I'm pretty sure his Acceleration is pretty shitty then given that he can hardly dodge something as simple as a tackle (also, given what a speed stat affects I would say it more affects the characters acceleration then their top speed. A higher speed means you act first which would be closer to that you can react faster then your opponent, not as much of that he can move at a higher top speed).

7) Because Samus has access to her Ship in MP3? And the hyper beam comment? uh...... Psychic=90x1.5=135. Hyper Beam=150. Both use the Sp. Atk Stat....it's a pretty fair comparison. I'm not trying to spite Mewtwo. I just feel that Samus would win in their fight and was just bringing up some of the valid points from the Samus vs Mewtwo that the OP didn't mention.

Originally posted by Supersun
Ok seriously, NO ONE is debating against Anime Mewtwo > Samus, EVERYONE agrees to that. The OP brought this up in response to a threat that limits them all to their games only.

1) even without the Thick Club Marowak can still use his Bone Attacks so Embargo obviously can't stop ALL his items. Though yes, there may be SOME level of compromise of Embargo stopping some of Samus Weapons like Disable would.

2) Since we are speaking of what they do according to their games you still can't make a move out to be any different then what it does. Defense Swap does NOT swap the ENTIRE def stats. ONLY changes to it. (as someone tried to do earlier)

3) Defend Order is a move that calls your minions to protect you, raising your Def and Sp.Def. Since your Sp.Def is raised is lowers Psychic attacks meaning Psychic DOES have to travel through mediums. It can't just form around whatever it feels like and only affect it. If you can surround your self in insects to protect you from psychic attacks I'm sure a full body steel suit would work the same.

4) Aura Sphere was brought up briefly (does that pierce def?). It still fell victim to that Samus could easily Screw Attack it and not take damage, but yeah it was more or less agreed upon that Aura Sphere was Mewtwo's best bet against Samus. Still definitely not enough to give Mewtwo any kind of instant win or anything though.

5) Was never debating that he couldn't use them, was just debating that they wouldn't really be that effective as Samus attacks more or less can't be stopped by objects.

6) Pokedex...really...half of those things are more like legend then anything. Even if he can move faster then mach 2 I'm pretty sure his Acceleration is pretty shitty then given that he can hardly dodge something as simple as a tackle (also, given what a speed stat affects I would say it more affects the characters acceleration then their top speed. A higher speed means you act first which would be closer to that you can react faster then your opponent, not as much of that he can move at a higher top speed).

7) Because Samus has access to her Ship in MP3? And the hyper beam comment? uh...... Psychic=90x1.5=135. Hyper Beam=150. Both use the Sp. Atk Stat....it's a pretty fair comparison. I'm not trying to spite Mewtwo. I just feel that Samus would win in their fight and was just bringing up some of the valid points from the Samus vs Mewtwo that the OP didn't mention.

3. So you just randomly decided to give Samus the Defend Order move? If Psychic isn't Telekinesis then its a mental attack which would attack Samus' mind. I see what you mean about Defend Order now though. However, a living creature is much different than inanimate objects in regard to increasing Special Defense. Special Attacks in Pokemon are much different than what you might think too. Of course this is assuming that your random Pokemon stats given to Samus are even fair.

4. That is assuming Samus can react fast enough and that being a Special Attack, it is even affected by that. The invincibility thing sounds more like a Gameplay mechanic to me. Samus still hasn't been attacked by anything like an Aura Sphere from MewTwo.

5. Nonsense.

6. For one, no. It's stated, canon information. Saying that Dragonite can't dodge every Tackle in a Turn Based RPG game is a terrible argument. It's based on a Gameplay mechanic, especially considering that Dragonite can fly.

7. Samus was never hit by a Pokemon Hyper Beam. Your Defense stats are still invalid.

I still see no reason to exclude anime and manga media for a Canonical Tier List. They're all Canon.

The OP wasn't in responce to a canonical tier list. I was in response to games only.

3) Do the stats look that off? They are open to suggestion, but I think Magnezone seems like a pretty logical fair choice. If you have a better suggestion I'm all ears as long as you don't say something like Spearow.

4) It's pretty insane, I mean I don't think the invincibility is the type that she can shrug off a planet exploding or anything but for all intents and purposes the only things that Samus can't screw attack through is the SA-X screw attack, but I mean if it takes a screw attack to stop a screw attack...yeah it's pretty sick. Plus there are other ways for her to become invincible as well. The PED suit is a big one. She can spend 100 HP to become invincible for 35 secs and to gain access to near broken equipment.

5) Spazer can't be stopped by walls and plasma goes THROUGH people. It's not that much nonsense is it?

6) Samus can canonically run at supersonic speeds as well and probably at a better acceleration (I'd say it takes her about 2 secs to reach it). I still won't be so bold to say because of this she can easily dodge every attack because she can't. Even with a 2 sec acceleration it's just not THAT realistic to use her speed to dodge every attack.

7) Yeah, there's no way to totally determine if they are equivalent but they look similar and both require a charge (only difference is that hyper beam is afters and the Metroid Version is before). The only other difference is that the metroid version would be more like a psychic version, and I mean if Samus can survive a Psychic like hyperbeam like attack she won't get OBLITERATED by Mewtwo. It's the point that they are both freakin strong attacks.

Originally posted by Supersun
The OP wasn't in responce to a canonical tier list. I was in response to games only.

3) Do the stats look that off? They are open to suggestion, but I think Magnezone seems like a pretty logical fair choice. If you have a better suggestion I'm all ears as long as you don't say something like Spearow.

4) It's pretty insane, I mean I don't think the invincibility is the type that she can shrug off a planet exploding or anything but for all intents and purposes the only things that Samus can't screw attack through is the SA-X screw attack, but I mean if it takes a screw attack to stop a screw attack...yeah it's pretty sick. Plus there are other ways for her to become invincible as well. The PED suit is a big one. She can spend 100 HP to become invincible for 35 secs and to gain access to near broken equipment.

5) Spazer can't be stopped by walls and plasma goes THROUGH people. It's not that much nonsense is it?

6) Samus can canonically run at supersonic speeds as well and probably at a better acceleration (I'd say it takes her about 2 secs to reach it). I still won't be so bold to say because of this she can easily dodge every attack because she can't. Even with a 2 sec acceleration it's just not THAT realistic to use her speed to dodge every attack.

7) Yeah, there's no way to totally determine if they are equivalent but they look similar and both require a charge (only difference is that hyper beam is afters and the Metroid Version is before). The only other difference is that the metroid version would be more like a psychic version, and I mean if Samus can survive a Psychic like hyperbeam like attack she won't get OBLITERATED by Mewtwo. It's the point that they are both freakin strong attacks.

This entire topic was created for the Canonical tier list on SWF.

3. They are off. The stats of the Pokemon have nothing to do with their typing. Lucario is also a Steel type, his defense isn't that great. You're better off just using Samus' real defense feats than giving her Pokemon stats based on her armor.

4. She's never actually screw attacked through another attack though, has she? Just other enemies which are vulnerable to her other attacks.

5. Near broken based on what? That it does more damage? We need real feats for the weapons anyway.

6. MewTwo can fly.

7. Hyper Beams vary in Strength based on the Pokemon using it. When powerful Pokemon like Gyrados use Hyper Beam it incinerates all of its targets. Gyrados isn't even good with Special Attacks. Imagine how much stronger one of those from MewTwo would be? I really still just think Samus is outclassed here.

It's not a canonical tier list. The literal title of the thread is "If all smash characters were true to their game, tiers." As stated already, if you are throwing in Manga and Anime then no crap Mewtwo raped just about everyone.

3) Defense feats? Running through mountains. Falling from cliffs. Walking in Lava. And those are the things she does without losing any health. She also has 20 energy tanks and 4 reserve tanks. On average getting slapped around by things that are much larger then her. Heck some of the things she has to fight are bigger then most pokemon (the room literally has to break for some of the monsters to fit into).

4) She has. It's actually a valid way to dodge a lot of attacks, you just merely screw attack through it.

5) Feats for weapons, you mean besides the fact that the fact that whenever she leaves planets, the majority of them end up exploding. Not to mention She had made 3 different species go extinct. Two of which were at that time considered the most dangerous threats in the galaxy and I should add she exterminated each of these species in UNDER TWO HOURS. I consider that an offensive feat.

6) According to the game, no he can not, he can not learn HM 5, Fly, Samus on the other hand can, once she gets the space jump she can jump infinitely.

7) Special attack is generally determined by how smart the pokemon is. Alakazam has the highest special stat and he's as smart as a super computer. The person who unleashed this Psychic Hyperbeam on Samus was a walking brain made by one of the most technologically advanced races in the galaxy that was made to control pretty much everything about planet Zebus. This brain also happened to cause the destruction to the most technologically advanced species on the planet. Yeah...I think that would have a pretty high special stat.

Originally posted by Supersun
It's not a canonical tier list. The literal title of the thread is "If all smash characters were true to their game, tiers." As stated already, if you are throwing in Manga and Anime then no crap Mewtwo raped just about everyone.

3) Defense feats? Running through mountains. Falling from cliffs. Walking in Lava. And those are the things she does without losing any health. She also has 20 energy tanks and 4 reserve tanks. On average getting slapped around by things that are much larger then her. Heck some of the things she has to fight are bigger then most pokemon (the room literally has to break for some of the monsters to fit into).

4) She has. It's actually a valid way to dodge a lot of attacks, you just merely screw attack through it.

5) Feats for weapons, you mean besides the fact that the fact that whenever she leaves planets, the majority of them end up exploding. Not to mention She had made 3 different species go extinct. Two of which were at that time considered the most dangerous threats in the galaxy and I should add she exterminated each of these species in UNDER TWO HOURS. I consider that an offensive feat.

6) According to the game, no he can not, he can not learn HM 5, Fly, Samus on the other hand can, once she gets the space jump she can jump infinitely.

7) Special attack is generally determined by how smart the pokemon is. Alakazam has the highest special stat and he's as smart as a super computer. The person who unleashed this Psychic Hyperbeam on Samus was a walking brain made by one of the most technologically advanced races in the galaxy that was made to control pretty much everything about planet Zebus. This brain also happened to cause the destruction to the most technologically advanced species on the planet. Yeah...I think that would have a pretty high special stat.

Ah, then now you know I haven't been to the thread. 😛

3. I don't remember her ever running through a mountain.

4. Then they'd have to be stronger than anything MewTwo can dish out.

5. None of the planets exploding are a result of her firing at the planet. She blew something up on the planet which resulted in its complete destruction, usually by destroying a boss which is connected to some massive research facility, right?

7. No, don't even say that since it's never been stated. I doubt MewTwo has an IQ higher than Alakazam's 5000, but he still has a higher Special Attack stat.

Aura Sphere is an attack that doesn't miss. MewTwo also has access to Miracle Eye, an attack that means you will not miss your next move. He also has access to Hypnosis and Dream Eater, as well as Recover. Another move, Substitute.

With just those six moves MewTwo has several movesets which will likely beat Samus.

mewtwo learns fireblast and melts samuses suit. the uses his psychic attack to launch her into the sun.

Hello Supersun, welcome to the forum. I think you'll like it here. 😄

-Galekill.

Supersun is more fun to debate with than BT. So far the worst claim he's made is that Special Attack is based on intelligence, and you could probably support that theory. It just hasn't been stated and we can't debate on a theory here.

I might make a new SWF and help you after all Shin. 😛

and really...Samus can walk in lava without taking damage and you say a Fire Blast will melt the suit...riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

If you are fighting Samus, you are already looking at Immunities from Fire, Ice, Ground, Poison, and resistances to just about everything else.

3) There's a spot in Super metroid where instead of climbing over a very large rock structure you can run through it instead if you have the speed booster. Not to mention, in Fusion, you can break some pretty impressive things with the speed booster and the screw attack in tangent.

4) As stated before. The only thing I can remember stopping the screw attack (and hurting you) is another screw attack (from the SA-X). The only other attack I "think" is effective is that big one mentioned earlier, but in that fight you are supposed to get your *** kicked by that move, there's no way to dodge it. It's needed for the game to progress.

5) well never directly but she has still wiped some planets clean of all life. Pretty much, when she leaves, the planet is either exploding or there's a mountain of corpses and a new species to add to the extinction list XD.

7)Well, my bad, I thought Allakhazam had a higher special attack then Mewtwo. Regardless, Intelligence in general seems to be the theme of how to boost a psychic attack. There aren't many psychic pokemon that are stupid, and in terms of intelligence...it doesn't get much higher then a gigantic brain XD.

Currently on Smashboards it's Samus vs Link. Be warned...it's...kinda long though currently it's degrading into shit D:.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8131130&posted=1#post8131130
(let me know if advertising other sites isn't allowed and I'll delete it)

Originally posted by Supersun
and really...Samus can walk in lava without taking damage and you say a Fire Blast will melt the suit...riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

3) There's a spot in Super metroid where instead of climbing over a very large rock structure you can run through it instead if you have the speed booster.

4) As stated before. The only thing I can remember stopping the screw attack (and hurting you) is another screw attack (from the SA-X).

5) well never directly but she has still wiped some planets clean of all life. Pretty much, when she leaves, the planet is either exploding or there's a mountain of corpses and a new species to add to the extinction list XD.

7)Well, my bad, I thought Allakhazam had a higher special attack then Mewtwo. Regardless, Intelligence in general seems to be the theme of how to boost a psychic attack. There aren't many psychic pokemon that are stupid, and in terms of intelligence...it doesn't get much higher then a gigantic brain XD.

3. Aren't those just like weak points in the rock?

4. Metroid is a Nintendo game, its kind of hard to prove the power of some things. I dunno where to go with this from here.

5. K.

7. It hasn't been stated, we can't assume that. We don't even have any exact numbers on the IQ rating of the giant brain. What was it built for?

Ridley's tail also stops the screw attack and presumably the speed booster.

Edit; Also Charizard's flamethrower is hotter than lava with a base sp attack far lower than MewTwo's, a fire blast could very well damage her severely.

The mother brain was built by the Chozo (one of the most technologically advanced races in the galaxy) to share information between the Federation and the Chozo. It also had access to all of Zebes defenses, and leads the Space Pirates that are on Zebus. It was also supposed to help them with their experiments and research (according to the manga it helped engineer the metroids).
Edit: also, it's stated she's a super computer.

I just realized, the Metroid: Other M trailer had the Mother Brain using her hyper beam against a metroid (supposedly a flash back even though in Super Metroid the Mother Brain never used the Hyper Beam against the infant metroid).