Advent,
according to TPM novelization, there was no rage from kenobi when he killed Maul. He pauses to center himself in the force. (the quote was printed recently, ) Then leapt, and killed him. No mention of the dark side at that time. It doesn't even say that Maul believes Kenobi couldn't touch him. It says that he pauses before finishing the fallen kenobi to savor the moment.
I'm only saying that Kenobi's final attack (leaping out of the pit, etc.) was a speed-rush. Not the rest of the fight.
You can call it PIS if you want, but it is VERY Similar to Sidious killing the 3 masters in a matter of moments, and we chalk that up to Sidious's speed, not to PIS.
This is not a knock on maul, just another example of Kenobi centering himself in the force in the miiddle of a fight, and owning whoever is facing him.
I'll post the quote if you want, but nothing you haven given so far gives me any evidence i'm wrong.
Darth Maul walked slowly to the edge of the melting pit, tattooed face bathed in sweat, eye~ wild and bright with joy. The battle was finished. The last Jedi was about to be dispatched. He smiled and shifted the remnant of his shattered lightsaber from one hand to the other, savoring the moment.Eyes fixed on the Sith Lord, Obi-Wan Kenobi went deep inside himself, connecting with the Force he had worked so hard to understand. Calming himself, stilling the trembling of his heart, and banishing his anger and fear, he called upon the last of his reserves. With clarity of purpose and strength of heart, he launched himself away from the side of the pit and catapulted back toward its lip. Imbued with the power of the Force, he cleared the rim easily, somersaulting behind the Sith Lord in a single smooth, powerful motion. Even as he landed, he was drawing Qui-Gon Jinn's fallen lightsaber to his outstretched hand.
Darth Maul whirled to confront him, shock and rage twisting his red and black face. But before he could act to save himself, Qui-Gon's lightsaber slashed through his chest, burning him with killing fire. The stricken Sith Lord howled in pain and disbelief.
Where is the arrogance? Where is the dark side? I need evidence from somewhere else that Obi-Wan with the help of the force didn't speed-rush Maul.
Originally posted by Morgromir
okay i see wha tyou mean , but i still think that Kenobi shouldve lost and i agree that he did slip into the dark side , look at the first movie see his face ? and he gained a temporary boost to his swordsmanship
remember this THE MOVIES WERE FIRST
Movies were first. They are the highest canon, but Novel explanation of what we see on-screen are also canon. They fill in the cracks, and give us MORE information than we previously had.
No argument from me that Maul was a superior fighter to TPM kenobi, but once Kenobi had that moment to center himself, he moved too quickly for Maul to match, if just for a single moment.
Originally posted by truejedi
Advent,
according to TPM novelization, there was no rage from kenobi when he killed Maul. He pauses to center himself in the force. (the quote was printed recently, ) Then leapt, and killed him. No mention of the dark side at that time. It doesn't even say that Maul believes Kenobi couldn't touch him. It says that he pauses before finishing the fallen kenobi to savor the moment.I'm only saying that Kenobi's final attack (leaping out of the pit, etc.) was a speed-rush. Not the rest of the fight.
You can call it PIS if you want, but it is VERY Similar to Sidious killing the 3 masters in a matter of moments, and we chalk that up to Sidious's speed, not to PIS.
This is not a knock on maul, just another example of Kenobi centering himself in the force in the miiddle of a fight, and owning whoever is facing him.
I'll post the quote if you want, but nothing you haven given so far gives me any evidence i'm wrong.
I lol'd.
What you're not understanding is that simply Obi-Wan had to survive, and Maul had to die in that fight. The outcome was already set in stone because - despite being called Ep. I - it was the fourth movie in the saga and Obi-Wan had been an established character. Lucas couldn't exactly have Obi-Wan killed or we'd be seeing his ghost in ANH.
The ending to the Duel of Fates was, irrefutably, plot-induced stupidity. To compare that to the Jedi strike team sent against Sidious doesn't draw a valid connection to it in any way. In Sidious' case, he was the most powerful Sith Lord in the mythos if we believe all the hype and shown himself capable of contending against Mace Windu and Yoda. People like Saesee, Agen and Fisto "can't compete with the Emperor" according to George Lucas himself and, as far as their abilities, only one of them has shown any outstanding combat prowess only on par with Asajj Ventress or AotC Obi-Wan.
Obi-Wan during TPM had absolutely nothing on Darth Maul. Maul is on a level where he's defeated the most technically skilled duelist of the Jedi Order, Anoon Bondara, and killed Qui-Gon in thirty seconds, he is consummate warrior and he's ability to react quickly is always been noted as extraordinary. His reflexes are top notch. But he didn't manage to react fast enough to a noob like Obi-Wan? Notice how Maul is watching Kenobi flip into the air and is even face-to-face with him for an entire second before being bisected? Yes, that is what we call plot-induced stupidity. We can answer why it was PIS by hammering in the point: Obi-Wan had to live.
Whatever quote you manage to scrummage up means nothing.
Edit: That being said, I'm not even sure what your point is...you like to waste your time stating that Maul couldn't defend against a random jump out of the pit of doom which would only happen in TPM since he was suprised basically reaffirming what we all saw happen? If that's all, then that's fine with me. It doesn't mean that it isn't PIS, since it is. You're free to make that point since your right in the context I described.
Originally posted by Advent
I lol'd.
What you're not understanding is that simply Obi-Wan had to survive, and Maul had to die in that fight. The outcome was already set in stone because - despite being called Ep. I - it was the fourth movie in the saga and Obi-Wan had been an established character. Lucas couldn't exactly have Obi-Wan killed or we'd be seeing his ghost in ANH.
The ending to the Duel of Fates was, irrefutably, plot-induced stupidity. To compare that to the Jedi strike team sent against Sidious doesn't draw a valid connection to it in any way. In Sidious' case, he was the most powerful Sith Lord in the mythos if we believe all the hype and shown himself capable of contending against Mace Windu and Yoda. People like Saesee, Agen and Fisto "can't compete with the Emperor" according to George Lucas himself and, as far as their abilities, only one of them has shown any outstanding combat prowess only on par with Asajj Ventress or AotC Obi-Wan.
Of course it was PIS. You seem to think i'm belittling Maul. I'm not. Its not his fault that Kenobi was given the ability to speed-rush him, but kenobi WAS. That is the part that is PIS. He shouldn't have had that ability as a padawan. But he did. So PIS. But stop contending that he did unless you can prove it.
Obi-Wan during TPM had absolutely nothing on Darth Maul. Maul is on a level where he's defeated the most technically skilled duelist of the Jedi Order, Anoon Bondara, and killed Qui-Gon in thirty seconds, he is consummate warrior and he's ability to react quickly is always been noted as extraordinary. His reflexes are top notch. But he didn't manage to react fast enough to a noob like Obi-Wan?
so PIS. But the fact of the matter is, it happened.
Notice how Maul is watching Kenobi flip into the air and is even face-to-face with him for an entire second before being bisected? Yes, that is what we call plot-induced stupidity. We can answer why it was PIS by hammering in the point: Obi-Wan had to live.
he watches it happen, and can't react fast enough. That much is canon. Its written into the novel. If you don't like it, that's another thing, but it doesn't make it not true.
Also, again, just because Kenobi had to live, doesn't mean Maul had to die. Luke fell out of a space station in ESB because he had to live, but Lucas didn't kill Vader, just to save luke.
Something else could have chased off Maul before he had a chance to finish Kenobi (such as the battle going wrong for the CIS in naboo, and he tries to fix it, not really that hard to imagine.)
Whatever quote you manage to scrummage up means nothing.
I'm afraid.. You don't get to decide what is canon, and what isn't. I didn't believe my own theory till I had the quote in front of me, and there is really no way around it.
PIS or not, the PIS was accomplished by Kenobi having the ability to jump out of a well and cut Maul down before he could react. Its Canon.
"
Darth Maul walked slowly to the edge of the melting pit, tattooed face bathed in sweat, eye~ wild and bright with joy. The battle was finished. The last Jedi was about to be dispatched. He smiled and shifted the remnant of his shattered lightsaber from one hand to the other, savoring the moment.
Eyes fixed on the Sith Lord, Obi-Wan Kenobi went deep inside himself, connecting with the Force he had worked so hard to understand. Calming himself, stilling the trembling of his heart, and banishing his anger and fear, he called upon the last of his reserves. With clarity of purpose and strength of heart, he launched himself away from the side of the pit and catapulted back toward its lip. Imbued with the power of the Force, he cleared the rim easily, somersaulting behind the Sith Lord in a single smooth, powerful motion. Even as he landed, he was drawing Qui-Gon Jinn's fallen lightsaber to his outstretched hand.
Darth Maul whirled to confront him, shock and rage twisting his red and black face. But before he could act to save himself, Qui-Gon's lightsaber slashed through his chest, burning him with killing fire. The stricken Sith Lord howled in pain and disbelief.
"
Random authors write the novels just because they have characters in it doesnt mean lucas has to approve of the way they phrase it ,and whats he going to do with maul , he has to die before ANH yes there are 5 hours of movie to kill him off but if he had it planned out already than what ??
wow all this tension over how fast maul can react why not email lucas and ask him! o.O
but Morgromir, its not Maul, its that you are ignoring Canon. I mean, you just can't do that here. Lucas(in a general sort of way) approves of everything that goes into the novelizations, and they are the highest sort of canon other than the movies. That nothing in the novelization contradicts what we see on-screen, means it is indisputable canon.
Originally posted by truejedi
He didn't have to have Maul killed though, now did he? They could have both survived.
Continuity ringing a bell in that tiny brain of yours? Dooku had to replace Maul so that Anakin would kill him in Ep. III. But Sidious can't exactly run around with two apprentices. It was George Lucas' vision for Maul to die, hence why he died. You can't argue against a director's intent; that is, story.
Of course it was PIS. You seem to think i'm belittling Maul. I'm not. Its not his fault that Kenobi was given the ability to speed-rush him, but kenobi WAS. That is the part that is PIS. He shouldn't have had that ability as a padawan. But he did. So PIS. But stop contending that he did unless you can prove it.
Are you dense? Plot-induced stupidity. The reason it is called that is because it isn't rational or logical for the characters to behave that way. According to urbandictionary.com, which is totally the most reputable source out there:
"Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics."
In other words, since it was a necessity for the storyline, it would only occur under that storyline. There's no reason to assume it would ever happen again or under different circumstances.
so PIS. But the fact of the matter is, it happened.
Basically, your point is then that Kenobi killed Maul in TPM. Why is that deserving enough of your time to "point out" to others? Didn't everyone who saw the movie also see that happen? That's why I don't understand the relevance in bringing it up. There is none, especially if you openly admit it was driven under plot necessity.
he watches it happen, and can't react fast enough. That much is canon. Its written into the novel. If you don't like it, that's another thing, but it doesn't make it not true.
Yawn. No one said it wasn't true, but when you say things like:
"that and not being fast enough to withstand a speedrush by kenobi. (my new favorite activiy is proving that after Kenobi centered himself in the force, he was just too fast for Maul.) No evidence to the contrary yet."
You fail to realize that as PIS, it doesn't mean a damned thing.
Also, again, just because Kenobi had to live, doesn't mean Maul had to die. Luke fell out of a space station in ESB because he had to live, but Lucas didn't kill Vader, just to save luke.
Something else could have chased off Maul before he had a chance to finish Kenobi (such as the battle going wrong for the CIS in naboo, and he tries to fix it, not really that hard to imagine.)
^ Don't be stupid; the continuity of the story (Dooku becoming Sidious' apprentice, which leads to Anakin's downfall) and George Lucas call for Maul's death.
I'm afraid.. You don't get to decide what is canon, and what isn't. I didn't believe my own theory till I had the quote in front of me, and there is really no way around it.
PIS or not, the PIS was accomplished by Kenobi having the ability to jump out of a well and cut Maul down before he could react. Its Canon.
I'm afraid you're wasting your time. If there is one main crux of this post, it's that: that as PIS, it doesn't mean a damned thing.
Originally posted by truejedi
i'm not sure on Kota. I'm not a giant fan. I definitly think Maul > Kota. I also think Maul is > Kota+Qui Gonn. I just think it would take longer for him to win over those 2 than it would take Mace to beat bane.
happy and strong Maul Vs Weakened Mace i think Maul would pwn
And once again Advent creates a long post quoting truejedi and insulting his intelligence
Originally posted by Advent
Continuity ringing a bell in that tiny brain of yours? Dooku had to replace Maul so that Anakin would kill him in Ep. III. But Sidious can't exactly run around with two apprentices. It was George Lucas' vision for Maul to die, hence why he died. You can't argue against a director's intent; that is, story.
Are you dense? Plot-induced stupidity. The reason it is called that is because it isn't rational or logical for the characters to behave that way.
NO ONE said it was logical. The fact that we found Kenobi has the ability to speed-rush Maul is very illogical.
In other words, since it was a necessity for the storyline, it would only occur under that storyline. There's no reason to assume it would ever happen again or under different circumstances.
I can accept your interpretation of that.
Basically, your point is then that Kenobi killed Maul in TPM.
And that he did it by moving faster than Maul could keep up with, not because of Maul's arrogance, which is repeated over and over on this forum.
"that and not being fast enough to withstand a speedrush by kenobi.
Once Kenobi had centered himself in the force, no. The centering himself in the force provides an EXPLANATION as to WHY he was able to perform the attack. Therefore, it wasn't completely luck. The fact that he able to perform that much better after centering himself in the force was PIS, but doesn't negate the fact that a centered Kenobi is (by PIS, or what-have-you) a much more dangerous foe than previously uncentered kenobi.
I'm afraid you're wasting your time. If there is one main crux of this post, it's that: that as PIS, it doesn't mean a damned thing.
Be nice to write off everything we don't like as not meaning a damned thing, but it doesn't always work that way. Just because something happened because of PIS, doesn't make it the same as if it never happened. It only means we can't take that low moment, and use it as the sole measuring stick of a character's abilities. It does, however, go into the larger body of work for a character. This goes into Maul's body of work, PIS, or not. It also goes into Kenobi's.
This actually fits perfectly into the Luke discussion in the FOTJ thread in EU. Luke had a PIS moment in Abyss, and while it is obvious that he SHOULD HAVE the ability to own everyone, the fact that he doesn't needs to be taken into account when discussing him.
But anyway, this has been a waste of time, since you want to discount random things as not meaning anything. I could say that Maul beating Bondara was PIS, or, on the other side of it, I could say that Maul struggling with Anoon Bondara's Padawan was PIS, since one of those obviously don't fit, but they BOTH still figure into his over-all body of work.
Basically, Shadowhunter makes Maul look weak and incapable throughout. (constantly losing a group of people who are non-force sensitives and a padawan) Then it makes him look good in killing Bondara. Do we write that entire book off as PIS? or do we just write off his victory over Bondara to make it fit?