That's just how Advent says stuff and actually how they used to debate all the time here.
The constant 'are you stupid', 'learn to read', 'why am I bothering with you', 'stop failing', 'get out of the debate' and the sarcastic bitching is just part of how they communicate and express their annoyance.
i remember those good ol days. I can at least say i stayed out of it. I never really saw how constant belittling of one's opponent helped anything. It felt like an immature level of debating to be honest. Can you imagine if we saw that kind of debate on TV come election time?
"Now my idiot opponent has made a claim about health care that just shows he has no ability to comprehend even simple subject. He sits there blabbering his mouth about things he knows nothing about, when really he just needs to shut up and take his pea-sized brain off the stage, because I have owned him.
No, shut up. You're done. I said you're done.
That's it. Your on ignore!!! Idiot!
"
"Mr. President, are you saying you won't debate with this candidate anymore?"
"Um, yes, he is a fool, and can't put together a competent thought, so not only am i not going to debate with him anymore, i can't even hear what he has to say, but its probably stupid. Like him."
Originally posted by truejedi
Maul could have just as easily died on the battlefield in Naboo. Or been shot by a security guard. You open the door on PIS, and the possibilities are endless.
You don't make a lick of sense. We're not arguing what could happen, we're discussing what did happen. Anything else is irrelevant.
Be nice to write off everything we don't like as not meaning a damned thing, but it doesn't always work that way.
Nice job on the misconstruing of my argument. It must be nice to distort statement made by the opposition. Fortunately, these forums provide a transcript of every comment that was made. Ah, here see, what did I say?
"That as PIS, it doesn't mean a damned thing."
Nowhere did I state that I didn't like it nor do I give any other circumstances for 'writing something off'. It's because of its nature as PIS, it wouldn't occur anywhere else, that is to say: a miracle, a one-time thing that flies in the face of reason that we can disregard it as meaningless.
Just because something happened because of PIS, doesn't make it the same as if it never happened. It only means we can't take that low moment, and use it as the sole measuring stick of a character's abilities. It does, however, go into the larger body of work for a character. This goes into Maul's body of work, PIS, or not. It also goes into Kenobi's.
That's the most absurd idea you've came up with out of this. Its PIS status means that it doesn't fit with the character, that is why it is called "plot-induced stupidity". If it made sense, then it wouldn't be PIS.
But anyway, this has been a waste of time, since you want to discount random things as not meaning anything.
I want to discount PIS as not meaning anything because by its very definition, it doesn't.
I could say that Maul beating Bondara was PIS, or, on the other side of it, I could say that Maul struggling with Anoon Bondara's Padawan was PIS, since one of those obviously don't fit, but they BOTH still figure into his over-all body of work.
You're not making much sense here. How could Maul beating Anoon be PIS when Anoon Bondara himself admits that Maul is his superior and that he cannot win? Fail, much? Point #2: struggling with Darsha was because she was skilled. Just because one character seems like they would cremate the other in theory doesn't mean it will always be so in practice.
In Shadow Hunter, Darsha is stated several times by Darth Maul himself to be a skilled fighter, going so far as to call her a "worthy combatant". Putting up a fight that she had no chance of winning disrupts Maul killing Anoon how? They don't contradict just because you want them to.
Basically, Shadowhunter makes Maul look weak and incapable throughout. (constantly losing a group of people who are non-force sensitives and a padawan) Then it makes him look good in killing Bondara. Do we write that entire book off as PIS? or do we just write off his victory over Bondara to make it fit?
Except in this instance you'd be using your interpretation of the book as your basis. If someone has a different interpretation (and I do), then you wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on. In this case, we both conclude that the ending was PIS, which if it's true, then it doesn't mean anything.
Originally posted by truejedi
i remember those good ol days. I can at least say i stayed out of it. I never really saw how constant belittling of one's opponent helped anything. It felt like an immature level of debating to be honest. Can you imagine if we saw that kind of debate on TV come election time?"Now my idiot opponent has made a claim about health care that just shows he has no ability to comprehend even simple subject. He sits there blabbering his mouth about things he knows nothing about, when really he just needs to shut up and take his pea-sized brain off the stage, because I have owned him.
No, shut up. You're done. I said you're done.
That's it. Your on ignore!!! Idiot!
"
"Mr. President, are you saying you won't debate with this candidate anymore?"
"Um, yes, he is a fool, and can't put together a competent thought, so not only am i not going to debate with him anymore, i can't even hear what he has to say, but its probably stupid. Like him."
It was horrible, even though someone was right about something, the ones with the biggest 'mouths' and most help from the others, were always winning. People were scared to disagree with the majority, because they would get insulted and excluded. Sounds just like high school.
Peer pressure FTW!
Probably because he beat the strongest Sith Lord ever by using Shatterpoint and Vapaad, which he can also use against Darth Bane.
Plus he has shown ridiculous Force power as well in those stupid Clone Wars cartoons. And they are apparently considered to be canon.
EDIT: Darth Bane also misses his orbies here. Those things would have helped him a lot.
Originally posted by Advent
You don't make a lick of sense. We're not arguing what could happen, we're discussing what did happen. Anything else is irrelevant.
Nice job on the misconstruing of my argument. It must be nice to distort statement made by the opposition. Fortunately, these forums provide a transcript of every comment that was made. Ah, here see, what did I say?"That as PIS, it doesn't mean a damned thing."
Nowhere did I state that I didn't like it nor do I give any other circumstances for 'writing something off'. It's because of its nature as PIS, it wouldn't occur anywhere else, that is to say: a miracle, a one-time thing that flies in the face of reason that we can disregard it as meaningless.
I think we are more or less repeating the same phrases to one another here.
The points i have been trying to make are:
1. Kenobi has been given the ability to augment his speed by centering himself in the force. He centers himself in the force in several different places in canon too, and each time, he performs something that would seem like PIS. (try smashing four droids with a random box in ROTS, right after the novel says he obeys the force)
So it is NOT that unusual that he would do such a thing in TPM. It is just the first known incident.
2. That Maul lost BECAUSE of Kenobi, NOT because of his arrogance. (i can't find anything in canon to suggest he was too arrogant at the moment he died) So Kenobi's speed was PIS, but it WAS superior speed, not a mistake by Maul that did him in. According to the novel, he was turning, but couldn't block.
See Advent, what i'm trying to determine, is WHAT action (specifically) can be considered PIS. Hard to take an entire situation and call it PIS.
That's the most absurd idea you've came up with out of this. Its PIS status means that it doesn't fit with the character, that is why it is called "plot-induced stupidity". If it made sense, then it wouldn't be PIS.
well, there is definitly more than one incident for maul that fits into that category then. We can discount them completely moving forward if it makes you happy.
I want to discount PIS as not meaning anything because by its very definition, it doesn't.
agreed.
You're not making much sense here. How could Maul beating Anoon be PIS when Anoon Bondara himself admits that Maul is his superior and that he cannot win?
okay, so you are calling the victory over Bondara canon, not PIS? Acceptable.
Point #2: struggling with Darsha was because she was skilled. Just because one character seems like they would cremate the other in theory doesn't mean it will always be so in practice.
actually, by your very definition, if it is illogical and doesn't fit, its PIS. I could say that "just because it seems as though Kenobi would never have a chance in heck to speedrush Maul and kill him before he reacts doesn't mean it will always be so."
There is no logical reason why Maul should struggle more against Darsha than he does against Bondara himself.
In Shadow Hunter, Darsha is stated several times by Darth Maul himself to be a skilled fighter, going so far as to call her a "worthy combatant". Putting up a fight that she had no chance of winning disrupts Maul killing Anoon how?
And everything indicates that Bondara is far more skilled than Darsha herself. if we are including personal testimonials, like you did with Maul, then Darsha herself is the one that gives us the insight into bondara that would put him at a much higher level than herself.
So logically, he should have taken Darsha down with a fraction of the effort he put into the win over Bondara. it didn't happen, so is the struggle he had with Darsha PIS? Since, logically, he should wipe the floors with her?
So since Maul calls Darsha a worthy opponent, does this mean that the fact he beat Bondara, who is more skilled than Darsha is PIS?
They don't contradict just because you want them to.
Nope, they only contradict because he had just as hard a time, (or harder) with a Padawan than with the Padawan's master, who is one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the order.
Except in this instance you'd be using your interpretation of the book as your basis. If someone has a different interpretation (and I do), then you wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on. In this case, we both conclude that the ending was PIS, which if it's true, then it doesn't mean anything.
So you are saying that if someone DISAGREED with you that TPM ends with PIS, then you would no longer have much of a leg to stand on? I mean, i don't feel that way, but i could take up that side of the argument for the heck of it.
Originally posted by truejedi
Actually we were discussing what must happen. Maul's death.
Any reason you're arguing in circles? Did Maul's death happen? Then we're discussing what did happen. The fact that it had to happen is the explanation as to why it happened.
I think we are more or less repeating the same phrases to one another here.
This is the first thing you've said that I can actually agree with.
The points i have been trying to make are:1. Kenobi has been given the ability to augment his speed by centering himself in the force. He centers himself in the force in several different places in canon too, and each time, he performs something that would seem like PIS. (try smashing four droids with a random box in ROTS, right after the novel says he obeys the force)
So it is NOT that unusual that he would do such a thing in TPM. It is just the first known incident.
It's the only incident. Let me explain, the fact that it's plot-induced stupidity means it isn't going to occur again. The essence of PIS is that a character does things that they can't or wouldn't do normally. When we see Darth Maul capable of things like this:
"The Twi'lek Jedi's leap, guided by the Force, landed him squarely behind Maul on the rear engine housing of the T- shaped bike. The action took Maul by surprise; he had not expected such a courageous, if foolhardy, deed.
Unexpected as the move was, however, Maul was still able to block the slash of the other's lightsaber with his own energy blade. He quickly activated the speeder's autopilot, then twisted around in the saddle, thrusting his weapon at the Jedi's chest. The Jedi blocked the blow and countered with another."
And being described as "Maul's entire existence had consisted of training, of exercise and instruction", and as a master of Teras Kasi, which is basically a parallel to Jeet Kun Do, Maul would be capable of defending against such an attack. But he wasn't able to. Why? PIS, nothing more, nothing less.
2. That Maul lost BECAUSE of Kenobi, NOT because of his arrogance. (i can't find anything in canon to suggest he was too arrogant at the moment he died) So Kenobi's speed was PIS, but it WAS superior speed, not a mistake by Maul that did him in. According to the novel, he was turning, but couldn't block.
Wow, Maul losing "because of Kenobi's speed" is the plot-induced stupidity. Do I need to nail a memo into your forehead for you to grasp that?
actually, by your very definition, if it is illogical and doesn't fit, its PIS. I could say that "just because it seems as though Kenobi would never have a chance in heck to speedrush Maul and kill him before he reacts doesn't mean it will always be so."
What? This makes no sense. The first sentence is not compatible with the second.
There is no logical reason why Maul should struggle more against Darsha than he does against Bondara himself.
Can you prove that Maul struggled more against Darsha? Oh? What's that? You can't? Indeed, you cannot. In the book, there's nothing to indicate that Darsha put up a better fight.
And everything indicates that Bondara is far more skilled than Darsha herself. if we are including personal testimonials, like you did with Maul, then Darsha herself is the one that gives us the insight into bondara that would put him at a much higher level than herself.So logically, he should have taken Darsha down with a fraction of the effort he put into the win over Bondara. it didn't happen, so is the struggle he had with Darsha PIS? Since, logically, he should wipe the floors with her?
So since Maul calls Darsha a worthy opponent, does this mean that the fact he beat Bondara, who is more skilled than Darsha is PIS?
Did you even read Shadow Hunter?
"Interesting-she was more powerful than he had thought. It did not matter, of course. He, who had trained his entire life to kill Jedi, could certainly not fail to kill a mere Padawan. But a more challenging opponent would take more time. Still, there were no other exits from the building; his target and the droid weren't going anywhere.
He might as well enjoy himself."
As we see, for the beginning portion of the duel, Maul is holding back. He then grows tired of playing around, but Darsha surprises him in holding her own:
"For a Padawan, she was a worthy opponent. No Jedi Master lived within the Force more fully than she did at this moment.
It was true. Every action she took was committed and well defined, but there was no emotion, no conscious thought preceding it. The Force guided her, helped her make the lightning-fast movements necessary to deflect the Sith, and even to counterattack.
But it was not enough. The Sith was the best fighter Darsha had ever seen."
Going on to say,
"And the Sith dived forward, striking left-right-left in a series of attacks that left her winded, even assisted as she was by the Force. She deflected, forcing her mind to disengage from following his technique, to relax and maintain her deep connection to the Force. Thoughts were a hazard.
He did not share that weakness; she could feel the truth of that. He had more conscious control of the power at his command, and that gave him the edge. If she tried to increase her control of the Force, she would reduce her ability to simply react-but if she did not, she could only defend."
She is attuning herself to the Force and having to do so just to contend with him. As we see, Darsha ends up having to sacrifice her life because she cannot take down Maul. Where did the idea that Maul struggled more with Darsha than with Anoon come about? Your ass would be the answer I'm looking for. Oh, and I should note how we have no idea how good Darsha was. By all accounts, she was skilled. Putting up a fight against Maul doesn't contradict anything.
Nope, they only contradict because he had just as hard a time, (or harder) with a Padawan than with the Padawan's master, who is one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the order.
They don't contradict. Period. Stop bringing it up because you're dead wrong.
So you are saying that if someone DISAGREED with you that TPM ends with PIS, then you would no longer have much of a leg to stand on? I mean, i don't feel that way, but i could take up that side of the argument for the heck of it.
Originally posted by Advent
I lol'd.What you're not understanding is that simply Obi-Wan had to survive, and Maul had to die in that fight.
The ending to the Duel of Fates was, irrefutably, plot-induced stupidity.
Translation: "No".
Anyways, let's just agree to disagree since, like you said, I know you aren't going to tell me anything new and I'll probably just end up quoting my previous posts.
i think shatterpoint would come in extremely handy for Mace in a fight with Bane. The orbalisks play a large part in every saber fight we know of him being in. If Mace could strike at the point where they could be broken, he could kill bane. Since bane doesn't bother to defend the areas covered by the orbalisks, Mace wouldn't even have too tough a time striking that point, and killing Bane.
My opinion of how it would play out of course.
I think mace is actually the MOST suited in all of star wars for taking out orbalisk bane.
Originally posted by truejediPlus this is without the Orbalisks TJ.
i think shatterpoint would come in extremely handy for Mace in a fight with Bane. The orbalisks play a large part in every saber fight we know of him being in. If Mace could strike at the point where they could be broken, he could kill bane. Since bane doesn't bother to defend the areas covered by the orbalisks, Mace wouldn't even have too tough a time striking that point, and killing Bane.My opinion of how it would play out of course.
I think mace is actually the MOST suited in all of star wars for taking out orbalisk bane.
ah, i forgot. well, hmmm... I guess i would start then with Bane's (relative)struggles with a lightsaber in POD. Vapaad would help Mace channel Bane's lightning back at him.
I don't think Bane's lightning would exceed Sidious's, so Windu should be able to handle it. As to a telekinetic attack? If kas'sim could handle it (protected himself, but got crushed) and he said himself he wasn't very strong with the force, then i'm thinking Mace, crush grievous's chest, Windu could block such an attack as well.
So it would come down to sabers.
Bane's main claim to fame with sabers before his orbalisks is his fight with kas'sim, and he was still losing when facing the master's style of choice. He was unable to handle a form that wasn't familiar to him either, and Vapaad would definitly be new since Mace created it.
When Bane wins his most impressive duels, he has always had the orbalisks that means he can leave his entire body other than his head unprotected, which is an advantage he definitly won't have here.
So when i put it all together, i think it favors Windu. Might be a little bit longer fight than the one i had in mind with the orbalisks though.
Originally posted by AdventIt would be difficult for mace to beat bane in a saber duel in my opinion due to his orbalisks ,the fact that vaapad reflects dark side energy back at its opponents and banes orbalisks absorb dark side energy making bane stronger i think.
Although, I would like to hear what you have to say about Mace besting Bane. I don't think it'd be as simple as "Mace beat Sidious so he'd beat Bane" if we considered that Sidious didn't really use the Force until he was disarmed. Perhaps Bane would take a different methodology to the fight.
Originally posted by Wolverine2179Bane doesn't have Orbalisks in this fight.
It would be difficult for mace to beat bane in a saber duel in my opinion due to his orbalisks ,the fact that vaapad reflects dark side energy back at its opponents and banes orbalisks absorb dark side energy making bane stronger i think.