FOTJ Spoilers Thread.

Started by Gideon20 pages

truejedi
I'm sorry. And Gideon, as Red has proved, there were people that saw Luke as an untouchable god, so i apologize for acting like you were telling us something everybody already knew. Apparently some people...

As for the list of Luke's feats: i'm still working on it. It'll take a long time. Classes start Monday, and I've got to have all my monologues and audition pieces ready before then.. so KMC will be re-relegated to a small part of my life. I'll keep posting on it though. I would seriously encourage you to work on compiling the Sidious list, if you have any time for it.

kudos.

Much appreciated. As for the rest, I've no interest in compiling a list of Sidious's feats. I invested a great deal of time in a substantiated essay regarding that very topic, and a list would only be ideal if one were to compare lengths. Size, in this case, doesn't matter. Quality > quantity.

Another damn edit: Red, thanks for handling this while I've been gone.

Originally posted by truejedi
while doing the whole luke list thing, i just read the Mara fight again.

G__D___ Travviss! She NEVER EVER EVER gave Caedus time to pull out that stupid darth. She had mara block all four darts from the gun, and then just randomly has him stick her with a stupid dart that the novel never gave him time to get out. He was dead. He was freaking dead, and Travviss let him kill Mara without an ounce of sensibility about it.

Okay, so now, Mara Jade is > Caedus.

I don't care. i'm so freaking pissed. She beat him. One on One, and then, not only did Caedus cheat, KAREN TRAVISS Cheated because she never actually gave Jacen an opening to get out that dart. I thought the Ben face thing gave him the opening, but according to the book, there would have been no way to get that thing out AND stick mara with it in that second.

So in one on one, Mara won.

She is > Caedus.

LOTF authors are stupid.

How exactly is she better than caedus? According to those the read the novel she was simply resoruceful and it was the setting that allowed her to "beat" caedus.

In a raw 1v1 setting i'd argue caedus destroys here.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
How exactly is she better than caedus? According to those the read the novel she was simply resoruceful and it was the setting that allowed her to "beat" caedus.

In a raw 1v1 setting i'd argue caedus destroys here.

Are you saying this because you haven't read the novel? Perhaps she would have lost if it had been an arena type of fight, but Mara, being the freaking awesome Mara, never would have allowed herself into such a scenario in 10 fights. She picked the setting, she set traps for Jacen in the middle of the combat. She had no more time to prepare the location of their final fight than he did, but she ran away from him in the middle of combat to set traps for him.

Its Jacen's fault that she was able to use the setting like she did, and everything Mara is about is using the setting to her advantage. I dont' see how it is a knock on Mara that she did so.

In terms of combat skill and command of the force, caedus far eclipses her when it comes to that.

I didn't read the novel, i find LOTF extremely boring after reading the first one.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
In terms of combat skill and command of the force, caedus far eclipses her when it comes to that.

I didn't read the novel, i find LOTF extremely boring after reading the first one.

Perhaps.... But she dominated him in their fight.

Due to the fact that the setting and the odds were greatly in her favour.

Its funny how you claim she dominated him but luke couldn't.

Originally posted by Gideon
Much appreciated. As for the rest, I've no interest in compiling a list of Sidious's feats. I invested a great deal of time in a substantiated essay regarding that very topic, and a list would only be ideal if one were to compare lengths. Size, in this case, doesn't matter. Quality > quantity.

Another damn edit: Red, thanks for handling this while I've been gone.

I figured you would say Quality > Quantity the first time. Saying to prove that Luke had more surprised me, since i thought that obvious.

Now, as to the quality, we shall have to see. This is largely my motivation in creating this list in the first place.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Due to the fact that the setting and the odds were greatly in her favour.

Its funny how you claim she dominated him but luke couldn't.

What he said...

And TJ, I'm still trying to find ANYONE in this thread that thought Luke was infallible or a force god. I don't see any evidence of this consensus at this time so I must assume Gideon's whole point was stating the obvious.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Due to the fact that the setting and the odds were greatly in her favour.

Its funny how you claim she dominated him but luke couldn't.

Luke dominated him too Wolfie. Read the source before you start interpreting my comments. When did i ever say Luke didn't dominate Caedus?

But re-reading this tonight, it is a fight that went very very clearly in Mara's favor right up until the final moment. That is what makes me so angry. The ending of the fight doesn't fit with the rest of it at all.

Is it my fault if Luke had a harder time with caedus than mara did? no it is Karen's fault. I found your comment interesting in that regard.

It's power fluctuations and the fact that Mara is a smarter fighter and used the confined space to her advantage. On even setting, Caedus would have raped her.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What he said...

And TJ, I'm still trying to find ANYONE in this thread that thought Luke was infallible or a force god. I don't see any evidence of this consensus at this time so I must assume Gideon's whole point was stating the obvious.

on this thread... no. Which does kinda make this whole thing pointless. But he is right that apparently there are people out there that saw Luke that way. Considering he gets injured in every fight, even in his fight at the end of NJO, I don't know why they saw it that way.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
It's power fluctuations and the fact that Mara is a smarter fighter and used the confined space to her advantage. On even setting, Caedus would have raped her.
Bingo.

Mara isn't all that ub3r.

oh good grief. I was angry because of poor writing from Traviss that never gave Caedus an opening for his kill stroke.

I'm not ACTUALLY saying that Mara is stronger than Caedus as we understand on these forums. I'm saying she got hosed in their fight.

It wasn't a debate statement.

Here, I'll even post it for you. See if i'm not right that she dominates:

Originally posted by truejedi
on this thread... no. Which does kinda make this whole thing pointless. But he is right that apparently there are people out there that saw Luke that way. Considering he gets injured in every fight, even in his fight at the end of NJO, I don't know why they saw it that way.

Doesn't take away from him being #1. And yes, it does render the whole thing pointless seeing as how nobody in this thread ever contested this idea.

[QUOTE]

He held his breath, listening. Crack. His right knee exploded with blinding pain as Mara cannoned out horizontally, Force-assisted, from a side conduit and caught his leg on the joint with her boots, ripping the tendons. As he lost his footing in the narrow passage, screaming, he found himself wedged for a second and groping for support. he lashed out with his lightsaber, shaving powdery brick from the wall. mara dropped to the muddy floor to dodge the lightsaber, then sprang up and sprinted away down the tunnel.

It wasn't a good start. Jacen swore and made himself run after her, willing endorphins to numb his leg and telling himself that he knew she was setting up a trap. She wanted him confine, pinned down, penned. If She thought tunnels would even the odds, she was wrong. He'd bury her here.

Mara found the perfect trap at teh ened of one of the culverts. She could hear jacen's running footsteps and she had a good fifty meteres on him.

From here, the vaulted ceiling became lower, and even Mara had to run at a crouch. it wasn't the place to swing a standard lightsaber. The tunnels were in poor condition, and the brick arches were starting to sag and collapse in places.

So he wouldn't oblige her by revealing his physical position in the Force. Fine. She spotted a rusty metal sheet about half a meter wide and laid it carefully across the tunnel floor, propped on stones so he'd tread on it and give her an audible warning when he reached that point. An intense Force shake of the brickwork and arches in front of and behind the metal plate weakened them, and then she stopped them from collapsing by Force pressure.

Hold em up. Wait for him to hit that plate...

Going after jacen would never work. He could never be allowed to set the agenda. He could come after her.

Trap immobilize, kill.

It wasn't pretty and it wouldn't capture the public's imagination like a lightsaber display at the academy, but her training was in destruction. jacen's was in deception.

She could hear him breathing, and the irregular vzzzm-vzzzm-vzzzm of his lightsaber as he stalked, jumping and turning to be sure she wasn't behind him. Then she could hear that he wasn't swinging the blade so much; the short staccato hums and buzzes told her he was running out of room. She was trapped too, of course, unless she counted the ventilation shafts every fifty meters. But when she said she was leaving here over his dead body, she meant it.

She felt the beginning of a compassionate human thought about Leia, but killed it stone-dead. It would weaken her.

Jacen's boots crunched over brikcs. He was impatient. She was in his way, holding him up when he wanted to get on with something.

Crunch...crunch...crunch.

If she'd timed it right, he was close to stepping on that rusty plate. Clang...
The rumbling began. She brought down both sections of tunnel, before and behind, with a massive exertion in the Force that made her breathless. She didn't hear him call out. Even in the damp conditions, clouds of find debris filled the air and made her choke.

Mara waited, one hand over her mouth and nose, shoto drawn, and listened in the force.

There was a whimpering and the chunk-chunk sound of the last falling bricks. She didn't expect that weight of debris from a low ceiling to cause impact injury, but to engulf and immoblize him. He wouldn't be dead--yet.
She waited in silence, a nonexistent presence herself, until she could hear no more movement.

Okay, Let's see what I have to do to end this.

An arm was all that protruded from the rubble. Through a fist-sized gap, she could see the wet, blinking glint of an eye and bloodstained face. A hand reached out to her, fingers splayed, bloody and shaking. Other people might have felt an urge to take that hand, the most distinctively human of things, but it was an old, tired Sith stunt, and she'd used it herself too many times.

She took her blaster and leveled it at the eye, one-handed, forefinger resting on the trigger. She had the shoto ready in case a coup de grace was called for.

She fetl as detached and steady as she'd ever been as teh Emperor's hand.

"Tell my mom I'm sorry I failed her, " jacen whispered.
"She knows," Mara siad, and squeezed the trigger.

Ch. 21:

They said that the human body was capable of extraordinary freats of strength when in extremis. For a Jedi, it was something else entirely.

Jacen Solo wasn't ready to die, not now, not so close to his ascendance, and not in a stinking drain like vermin.

He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation. Bricks hammered the walls and rained fragments, knocking Mara flat like a bomb blast. She made an animal noise that was more anger than pain and flailed for a moment as she tried to get up.

The effort froze jacen for two vital seconds. But he knew if he didn't get up now and fight back, mara would come in for the kill, again and again, until he was worn down and too weak to fend her off.

He scrambled to his feet, staggering more than standing...
...But he was hurt and badly.

He fumbled for his lightsaber and thumbed it into life again. Mara was already back on her feet, coming at him with the shoto and vibroblade, brick dust and black-red blood snaking down her forehead from a scalp cut. She leapt at him with the shoto he left-handed, fencing style, seared the angle of his cheekbone, and caught him under the tip of his chin with the vibroblade as he jerked back.

She shouldn't have been able to get near him. He had total mastery, and she was just athletic and fast. He pushed back at her in the Force, sending her crashing against a wall with a loud grunt, but she kept coming at him, one-two, one-two with the shoto and the blade, and he was being driven back, his strength ebbing. He needed space to fight.

He drew his dart gun and fired one after the other, but mara scattered all four needles in a blur of blue light. They fell to the ground. He turned and scrambled through the collapsed brick, using the Force to hurl debris up at her from the floor of the passage while she leapt from block to boulder to chunk of masonry, until she Force-leapt onto his back and brought him down.

They rolled. This wasn't a duel: It was a brawl. She thrust her vibroblade up under his chin and he jerked his head to one side, feeling the tip skate from his jaw to his hairline as it missed his jugular. He couldn't draw the weapons he needed. he was losing blood, losing strenth, waning, flailing his lightsaber to fend her off. It was almost useless in such a close-quarters struggle. mara, manic, and panting flicked the shoto to counter every desperate stabbing thrust.

Jacen was on the knife-edge between dying and killing. They grappled, Force-pushed, force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side. She almost force-snatched the lightsaber from his hand, but even with his injuries he hung on to it. He wouldn't die. He couldn't. no now.

Then she launched herself at him--unthinking, a wild woman, hair flying--and he force-pushed to send her slamming against a pillar in midleap. But the battering he'd taken and the ferocity of her relentless attack had blinded him to danger from another quarter. As he lurched backward to avoid her, hisl egs went from under him and he stumbled into a gaping crack opened up by the subsidence. he fell badly: red-hot pain seared from ankle to knee. His lightsaber went flying. Pain could be ignored, but the moment it took him to get to his feet again was enough for Mara to right herself and come back at him withe shoto and plunge it into the soft tissue just under the end of his collarbone.

Now, pay close attention to this next paragraph: Think of what jacen's hands are doing:

Lightsaber wounds hurt a lot more than he ever imagined. Jacen screamed. He summoned his own weapon back to his hand(first hand) and mara crashed into him, knocking him flat again and pinning him down. her vibroblade stopped a hand span from his throat as he managed to grab her hair and drag her face nearer and nearer to his lightsaber. (second hand.) She struggled to pull back, hacking at him with the shoto but blocked by his dwindling force power each time.

Her vibroblade grazed his neck. He fumbled in his belt for a dart. (WITH WHAT???!?!?! HIS FREAKING THIRD HAND???) She jerked back with a massive effort, leaving him clutching a handful of red hair, and the only thing that crossed his mind as she arched her back and held her arms high to bring both shoto and vibroblade down into his chest was that she would never, ever harm ben.

Jacen stared into her eyes and instantly created the illusion of Ben's face beneath her. She blinked.

It gave him the edge for that fraction of a moment. It was long enough to ram the poison dart (that he was holding in his third hand) into her leg with its protective plastoid cone still in place.

And she dies. But she wouldn't have died without karen Traviss giving Jacen THREE hands to work with.

I'm pretty furious. No star wars character in history has recieved a random advantage like a third hand when they needed one.

*Jaw drops*

I'm pretty ticked about it myself. Did no one read this book before publishing it? 1 hand on the lightsaber. 1 Hand holding Mara by the Hair, and 1 hand fumbling for a dart? What?