God Commands You To Kill Gays

Originally posted by Robtard
Read the Wiki on him.

I like the accusation that his ultimate goal in picking apart religion (namely Christianity & Islam) is to promote his own specific Buddhist and Hindi beliefs, because it made me think of Shaky's actions in the religion forum.

I will, but how accurate is that?

Edit - Just read most of the wiki article. Seems I was correct. He even talks about tolerating religion. He just wants to bring under scruitany, religion in general. He wants religion to be subjected to emprical criticism. That's done, all the time. There's an entire organization dedicated to empirical review of Mormonism and the book of mormon. FARM. I guess he likes the Mormons? lol

Originally posted by dadudemon
I will, but how accurate is that?

No idea. Funny nonetheless.

Originally posted by Robtard
No idea. Funny nonetheless.

I edited my post.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
I suppose in some places there are some anti-gay laws such as prop 8 as you mention, but the blame for those isn't to be thrown on the Christian faith, but on the people who passed them.

As for homosexuals committing suicide due to social pressure, meh...cry me a river. If you're unstable enough to commit suicide due to social pressure, then you would've been unstable enough to do some other type of crazy shit even if there were no social pressure in the first place.

[underline mine]

uuuuummmmmm. so there's never been a hate crime against a homosexual? some people make it very clear they don't want gay people to exist. clear as in "we're gonna beat you up and shove a baseball bat up your ass and then leave you to die from blood loss."

read the news. hate crime against homosexual people is very "popular."

Originally posted by siriuswriter
[underline mine]

uuuuummmmmm. so there's never been a hate crime against a homosexual? some people make it very clear they don't want gay people to exist. clear as in "we're gonna beat you up and shove a baseball bat up your ass and then leave you to die from blood loss."

read the news. hate crime against homosexual people is very "popular."

Never did I say in my post hate crimes do not exist. You underlined a portion of my post that you in no way addressed. The subject of my post and the subject of your post are completely different. I discussed the decision to take your own life due to social pressure, you said hate crimes exist. Apples and oranges.

"we're gonna beat you up and shove a baseball bat up your ass and then leave you to die from blood loss."

You know, not every gay would find the middle part objectionable, just saying.

To Wicker's Prop 8 statement: Prop 8 was largely religious. The marriage = man & woman was cited from religious text and it was the money (lots of it too) and footwork of religious groups (the Mormons being a major player) that got it passed.

Well, your post implied that if it wasn't because of being gay then it would've been something else. This sentiment downplays the massive levels of shit that gays have to deal with that siriuswriter was pointing out.

So it is more like chairs and stools. Or couches and sofas. Or even sofas and futons.

Futons aren't very comfy.

Originally posted by Robtard
You know, not every gay would find the middle part objectionable, just saying.

To Wicker's Prop 8 statement: Prop 8 was largely religious. The marriage = man & woman was cited from religious text and it was the money (lots of it too) and footwork of religious groups (the Mormons being a major player) that got it passed.

Yeah, I read an article on it, stating as much. The church's attitude towards gay marriage has always been extremely transparent. What I wanna know is their position on that fat chick wanting to marry the roller coaster.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Well, your post implied that if it wasn't because of being gay then it would've been something else. This sentiment downplays the massive levels of shit that gays have to deal with that siriuswriter was pointing out.

So it is more like chairs and stools. Or couches and sofas. Or even sofas and futons.

Futons aren't very comfy.

Got some numbers to come with that personal opinion? Such as number of hate crimes vs. gays as opposed to number of hate crimes vs. muslims as opposed to number of hate crimes vs. african americans, etc. etc. ?

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
What I wanna know is their position on that fat chick wanting to marry the roller coaster.

They probably couldn't care less. Unless she states she's a lesbian and the roller coaster is female.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
Yeah, I read an article on it, stating as much. The church's attitude towards gay marriage has always been extremely transparent. What I wanna know is their position on that fat chick wanting to marry the roller coaster.

Thou shalt not lie with rollercoaster as with man.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
Got some numbers to come with that personal opinion? Such as number of hate crimes vs. gays as opposed to number of hate crimes vs. muslims as opposed to number of hate crimes vs. african americans, etc. etc. ?

That gay bashing is considered socially acceptable while bashing religion (for example) is most definitely not should prove this for me.

Sadly, it does not.

So:
Five out of the first nine links on Google scholar list sexual orientation in the title in some way.

The 2007 statistics from the FBI note that anti-gay hate crimes are nearly as prevalent as anti-religion acts.

In New York gays are the 3rd largest target, behind only Blacks and Jews.

gays are the 3rd largest target, behind only Blacks and Jews.

Like I've been telling you people, the Black and the Jew are always trying to steal the spotlight.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
Yeah, I read an article on it, stating as much. The church's attitude towards gay marriage has always been extremely transparent. What I wanna know is their position on that fat chick wanting to marry the roller coaster.

Easy and simple.

Marriage is between a man and a woman, as Robtard said.

That is outlined in the "Family Proclamation to the World."

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
If they decide to do something extreme under extreme circumstances, that is what I call a personality trait. So if that kind of person lived in a world where there was absolutely NO prejudice against homosexuality whatsoever, having that particular trait (I call it the "oh noes life's too hard, I'm gonna take the easy way out" trait), they would probably end up doing "something extreme" under OTHER circumstances. I regard people like this to be quitters of extreme persuasion.

That is totally illogical. That someone does something extreme under extreme circumstances does in no way mean they would do something extreme under normal circumstances. The "oh noes life's too hard, I'm gonna take the easy way out" obviously exist, but they are not necessarily the same as the ones that choose suicide under extremely stressful situations.

Besides, suicide is not the "easy way out" or only for "cowards". That's a ridiculous mindset that has develope in our societies to deal with the fact that some people just really like to check out early. Doug Stanhope got a quite funny bit on it, with truth in it, suicide is hardly easy.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
In shorter words, in my opinion, if someone is willing to kill themselves over being discriminated for being gay, they're just as likely to kill themselves over being discriminated for being poor, or black, or hispanic, etc. etc. etc.

Yeah, well, that's incorrect though. Since gays, at least nowadays still, have to deal with a much bigger stigma. Another thing is that you may be the only gay in your family or even community, that doesn't happen with poor or black or hispanics that much. And if it happens with blacks or hispanics, chances are your mom or dad don't fundamentally hate blacks or hispanics since they obviously screwed the brains out of one or more.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
I didn't say "innocent" in my post did I? I just said bystanders. And perhaps I worded it wrong, or didn't give enough information. What I meant wasn't that the bystanders shouldn't see so they're not shocked, but rather that harm might come if the "going out" scheme involves shooting oneself, throwing oneself in front of cars, etc. Why would I have to be involved in a car pile up because some dude decided he can't take being called queer anymore and killed himself but led to a gigantic fckin pile-up? You now get what I meant?

No, because it still is the same thing. Why should some dude be insulted all the time because some people decided that his lifestyle is wrong? Really, if we are saying it's not wrong to be systematically persecuted, why should we consider someone killing themselves and holding traffic by it as wrong?

Personally I find both wrong, but since you don't think them being excluded and basically emotionally (and sometimes physically) tortured is such a big deal, I don't think you can with any reason claim that they should not involve anyone from the outside in their suicide. I don't see the justification for the one vs. the other, you understand?

Originally posted by Bardock42
That is totally illogical. That someone does something extreme under extreme circumstances does in no way mean they would do something extreme under normal circumstances.

I guess maybe I didn't express myself properly. The "OTHER circumstances" from my post meant other extreme circumstances, didn't mean normal circumstances. What I meant to say (which I then reinforced with following posts) was that committing suicide because you are being discriminated against means you cause you're gay, means you would probably also commit suicide if you are being discriminated against for being poor, homeless, etc.

Originally posted by Bardock42
The "oh noes life's too hard, I'm gonna take the easy way out" obviously exist, but they are not necessarily the same as the ones that choose suicide under extremely stressful situations.

I group them together, because I think what someone considers "an easy time" someone else considers "stressful situation". As such, I'm pretty sure ALL suicide victims do it under stressful conditions. Sitting on the side and watching and saying "well he had MORE stressful conditions than the other guy" is useless for me. They both committed suicide, so they're both trying to get an easy way out.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Besides, suicide is not the "easy way out" or only for "cowards". That's a ridiculous mindset that has develope in our societies to deal with the fact that some people just really like to check out early. Doug Stanhope got a quite funny bit on it, with truth in it, suicide is hardly easy.

Going through life IS hard. Putting a fckin bullet in your head is easy. End of story. Committing suicide = pushing the "quit" button.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, well, that's incorrect though. Since gays, at least nowadays still, have to deal with a much bigger stigma.

I was gonna chew your ass off for this, but then I did some digging, and spent a few hours reading statistics and you can find the end result at the end of my post.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Another thing is that you may be the only gay in your family or even community, that doesn't happen with poor or black or hispanics that much. And if it happens with blacks or hispanics, chances are your mom or dad don't fundamentally hate blacks or hispanics since they obviously screwed the brains out of one or more.

You do realize you're arguing for segregation and separatism right? Put all the whites with the whites, the black with the blacks, and the gays with the gays. That way, we're all happy, and we all have our own happy communities. That's bullcrap. If your family is understanding and loves you no matter what, more power to you and your family. If your family doesn't understand you or ostracizes you for being gay, move the fck out. There are organizations ready and willing to help.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, because it still is the same thing. Why should some dude be insulted all the time because some people decided that his lifestyle is wrong? Really, if we are saying it's not wrong to be systematically persecuted, why should we consider someone killing themselves and holding traffic by it as wrong?

Because I, did not persecute "random dude X" and cause him to jump off a fckin bridge or cause a pile up or whatever, and yet I am suffering. And I am suffering, indirectly because of society's fault, and DIRECTLY because that dude caused a pile-up. What you are saying is as silly as:

A pick-up truck drives by leaving a huge trail of smoke. As a result, I cough for 20 minutes straight. You come along saying "well it's our fault as society that we allow gas chuggers like that to be driven in the first place. I say "no, because I didn't vote for pick up trucks to be legal, and I sure as fck didn't tell the guy driving it to drive past me while leaving a trail of smoke. And now I'm suffering cause that guy is a prick who leaves a trail of smoke and decided to drive past me." While you keep insisting it's everybody's fault, not his.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Personally I find both wrong, but since you don't think them being excluded and basically emotionally (and sometimes physically) tortured is such a big deal, I don't think you can with any reason claim that they should not involve anyone from the outside in their suicide. I don't see the justification for the one vs. the other, you understand?

Because I also face discrimination on several fronts, perhaps not AS bad as the gay dude, but either way, I ignore it, and keep on going with my life. Whereas while I ignore discrimination and keep on going, he doesn't, and decides to cause a pile-up, in which I (who did not emotionally or physically torture him) am now involved.

Okay, now that that's out of the way, I'll address a previous quote of yours:

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, well, that's incorrect though. Since gays, at least nowadays still, have to deal with a much bigger stigma.

I would really like to know where you got this information that they face bigger stigma from. However, I'm pretty sure it's just a personal opinion based on something you either watched or read that had sufficient shock value to impress you. What I CAN tell you, is just like what Red Nemesis said, that the numbers don't lie:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/table_07.htm

That's for 2007.

Now according to THIS there were about 40.7 million african americans in the US in 2007, which means the percentage of hate crime victims vs. total number of african americans = 0.008% . Unfortunately, this is impossible to do for homosexuals however, as there is no clear data on how many homosexuals there are in the US (other than horrible estimates).

Unfortunately, until next year, when the next US census will contain more specific questions on sexual preference, and hopefully people will open up slightly more, there cannot be hard numbers thrown around on PERCENTAGES of victims vs. total population.

But what you CAN notice by looking at that hate crime table right now is that anti-homosexual hate crimes are still leagues behind those against races and religions.

So I still don't get where you came up with the "much bigger stigma", and even IF that became true somehow (which it's not), how would that justify suicide again?

Leagues behind those against races and religions

That is very close. So your 'leagues' comment is false.

Also: are you arguing that the only people that are effected by these hate crimes are the victims themselves? If you want to suggest that the suicide is 'unjustified' unless a direct victim is involved then stfu. That's silly.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
I guess maybe I didn't express myself properly. The "OTHER circumstances" from my post meant other extreme circumstances, didn't mean normal circumstances. What I meant to say (which I then reinforced with following posts) was that committing suicide because you are being discriminated against means you cause you're gay, means you would probably also commit suicide if you are being discriminated against for being poor, homeless, etc.

I group them together, because I think what someone considers "an easy time" someone else considers "stressful situation". As such, I'm pretty sure ALL suicide victims do it under stressful conditions. Sitting on the side and watching and saying "well he had MORE stressful conditions than the other guy" is useless for me. They both committed suicide, so they're both trying to get an easy way out.

Going through life IS hard. Putting a fckin bullet in your head is easy. End of story. Committing suicide = pushing the "quit" button.

I was gonna chew your ass off for this, but then I did some digging, and spent a few hours reading statistics and you can find the end result at the end of my post.

You do realize you're arguing for segregation and separatism right? Put all the whites with the whites, the black with the blacks, and the gays with the gays. That way, we're all happy, and we all have our own happy communities. That's bullcrap. If your family is understanding and loves you no matter what, more power to you and your family. If your family doesn't understand you or ostracizes you for being gay, move the fck out. There are organizations ready and willing to help.

Because I, did not persecute "random dude X" and cause him to jump off a fckin bridge or cause a pile up or whatever, and yet I am suffering. And I am suffering, indirectly because of society's fault, and DIRECTLY because that dude caused a pile-up. What you are saying is as silly as:

A pick-up truck drives by leaving a huge trail of smoke. As a result, I cough for 20 minutes straight. You come along saying "well it's our fault as society that we allow gas chuggers like that to be driven in the first place. I say "no, because I didn't vote for pick up trucks to be legal, and I sure as fck didn't tell the guy driving it to drive past me while leaving a trail of smoke. And now I'm suffering cause that guy is a prick who leaves a trail of smoke and decided to drive past me." While you keep insisting it's everybody's fault, not his.

Because I also face discrimination on several fronts, perhaps not AS bad as the gay dude, but either way, I ignore it, and keep on going with my life. Whereas while I ignore discrimination and keep on going, he doesn't, and decides to cause a pile-up, in which I (who did not emotionally or physically torture him) am now involved.

Okay, now that that's out of the way, I'll address a previous quote of yours:

I would really like to know where you got this information that they face bigger stigma from. However, I'm pretty sure it's just a personal opinion based on something you either watched or read that had sufficient shock value to impress you. What I CAN tell you, is just like what Red Nemesis said, that the numbers don't lie:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/table_07.htm

That's for 2007.

Now according to THIS there were about 40.7 million african americans in the US in 2007, which means the percentage of hate crime victims vs. total number of african americans = 0.008% . Unfortunately, this is impossible to do for homosexuals however, as there is no clear data on how many homosexuals there are in the US (other than horrible estimates).

Unfortunately, until next year, when the next US census will contain more specific questions on sexual preference, and hopefully people will open up slightly more, there cannot be hard numbers thrown around on PERCENTAGES of victims vs. total population.

But what you CAN notice by looking at that hate crime table right now is that anti-homosexual hate crimes are still leagues behind those against races and religions.

So I still don't get where you came up with the "much bigger stigma", and even IF that became true somehow (which it's not), how would that justify suicide again?

I think we have said most things then, there's nothing new coming to the table as far as I can see, I just want to say that with stigma I did not mean hate crime commited against, that is a whole different thing. Getting beaten up also tends to not make you want to kill yourself...the problem that many homosexuals face, in the US, is the social ostracization, sure blacks may get beaten up by whites, and they may be discriminated by their employers, but they tend not to be excluded from the communities they grew up in, their parents that may have had loving bonds with them tend not to disgustedly stop any communication with them. It's a different kind of hardship gays face. And I think your attitude is hardly justified as it is comparing apples to oranges, and therefore your last part "chewing my ass off" is totally pointless and unrelated.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Victims of hate crimes motivated by:
Sexual Orientation: 1,512
Religion: 1,628

That is very close. So your 'leagues' comment is false.

Also: are you arguing that the only people that are effected by these hate crimes are the victims themselves? If you want to suggest that the suicide is 'unjustified' unless a direct victim is involved then stfu. That's silly.

Yeah, I meant races with the leagues comment, I noticed religion is quite close.

I didn't say the victims are the only ones affected, but unfortunately the tables the FBI have do not have a column called "friends and family that feel really bad".

I am not suggesting that, I'm suggesting suicide is an act of cowardice in all but the most extreme of cases, and that the people doing it as a consequence of being discriminated against or socially ostracized are weak fools.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think we have said most things then, there's nothing new coming to the table as far as I can see, I just want to say that with stigma I did not mean hate crime commited against, that is a whole different thing. Getting beaten up also tends to not make you want to kill yourself...the problem that many homosexuals face, in the US, is the social ostracization, sure blacks may get beaten up by whites, and they may be discriminated by their employers, but they tend not to be excluded from the communities they grew up in, their parents that may have had loving bonds with them tend not to disgustedly stop any communication with them. It's a different kind of hardship gays face. And I think your attitude is hardly justified as it is comparing apples to oranges, and therefore your last part "chewing my ass off" is totally pointless and unrelated.

You basically said "but gays have it harder than the others". That is nothing short of ignorant, and as such I brought up some hard numbers to show that they do not. I do understand that stigma means more than having a hate crime committed against you, but that's really the only kind of tangible evidence or empirical data I could come across, and frankly anything other than those numbers is personal opinion. How do you know gays have it harder than blacks, or blacks have it harder than hispanics outside of hate crimes? Even if you were black, hispanic, or gay, you would know only one side, and could not compare to the other.

I was not comparing apples to oranges, I was just adding numbers to the table to show that your opinion of "gays have it harder" (no pun intended) is not backed up by numerical proof, and anything OTHER than the numerical proof is simply your personal opinion.

As for the issue of the loving family/community/etc., if the family "disgustedly stop any communication with them" then they're not worth shit, forget about them, stop feeling sorry for yourself, get off your ass and find an organization out of the dozens that exist across the US and move the fck out.