Darth Maul vs. Asajj Ventress

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
better dueling feats. better force feats. etc.

Feats mean nothing unless put into context. How has anything Ventress shown indicate she'd be able to handle Darth Maul? In Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, she is noted as being less powerful than General Grievous, who doesn't even have access to the Force. Darth Maul was a dedicated master of the art of combat and Sith teachings. Ventress was but a learner in comparison.

quotes suffer that same problem as feats do though. only worse. maul is master in what context? he didnt master the ways of combat and teachings to the point where he was above everyone else obviously. there were many people even when he was alive that were superior duelists to him. so really he mastered said teachings in the context that he reached the pinnacle of his potential; there was no longer any room for him to grow. but how does that have any meaning in relation to other characters? anakin wasnt a master duelist nor was he a master force practitioner but he was still one of the greatest duelists of the pt. thats because to master something requires a specific dedicated mindset whereas to be truly good or great at something requires skill. as seen with anakin sheer skill can compensate for wisdom and technical prowess. hell dooku was pretty much the grand slam breakfast of force knowledge and dedication aside from sideous but he was no match for the much younger and more inexperienced anakin.

so i see assaj not mastering her abilities more as a result of her mindset then lack of skill. in fact i see her as a mirror image of anakin in that shes very skilled inherently but doesnt have the patience or the resolve to focus on the finer technical aspects of her trade.

as for being weaker then greivous... how is that a negative showing on her? greivous was a beast even without the force. i think hed trash maul as well.

Your point in the that post was what, exactly? That "natural talent" somehow beats out "refined natural talent"? It doesn't. In this case, you have a Dark Jedi with the training of a Jedi padawan going up against a fully trained Dark Lord of the Sith who was a better fighter than even the most skilled duelist of the entire Jedi Order, Anoon Bondara, who also happened to be the battlemaster of the era. Asajj hasn't shown anything to indicate she's in league with Maul. If she has, then prove up.

I'm curious as to how the duel between Anakin and Dooku has any relevance whatsoever to in proving that Asajj Ventress would beat Maul. If this is what you were trying to make out of it,

so i see assaj not mastering her abilities more as a result of her mindset then lack of skill. in fact i see her as a mirror image of anakin in that shes very skilled inherently but doesnt have the patience or the resolve to focus on the finer technical aspects of her trade.

Then I'd tell you that your operating under an inaccurate assumption. Anakin was a master of Djem So, Dooku himself notes that he was "the finest Djem So stylist he'd ever seen". Outmaneuvering Dooku was not simply "natural talent" working alone; it was a refinement of that innate drawing to saber combat and over a decade of practice, both physically and mentally.

Another false premise you're operating under is the assumption that,

thats because to master something requires a specific dedicated mindset whereas to be truly good or great at something requires skill. as seen with anakin sheer skill can compensate for wisdom and technical prowess.

To be "truly great" at something doesn't require mastery? Tell that to the thousands of professional champions - including Anakin Skywalker - that have spent thousands of hours practicing that they have all wasted their time.

Just saying something doesn't make it so and drawing incompatible comparisons don't support much of anything. You'll need something more viable than your words if you want to be taken seriously.

Is there anyone here who hasn't realised that Miss Marvel is Blaxican btw?

Originally posted by A. Cloud
Is there anyone here who hasn't realised that Miss Marvel is Blaxican btw?

i think theyre in denial. im much better at hiding it then you are. 😆

Your point in the that post was what, exactly?

i was rambling to be honest.

ill get to the rest of your post later. i have a hangover again.

Originally posted by Advent
Your point in the that post was what, exactly? That "natural talent" somehow beats out "refined natural talent"? It doesn't. In this case, you have a Dark Jedi with the training of a Jedi padawan going up against a fully trained Dark Lord of the Sith who was a better fighter than even the most skilled duelist of the entire Jedi Order, Anoon Bondara, who also happened to be the battlemaster of the era. Asajj hasn't shown anything to indicate she's in league with Maul. If she has, then prove up.

I'm curious as to how the duel between Anakin and Dooku has any relevance whatsoever to in proving that Asajj Ventress would beat Maul. If this is what you were trying to make out of it,

Then I'd tell you that your operating under an inaccurate assumption. Anakin was a master of Djem So, Dooku himself notes that he was "the finest Djem So stylist he'd ever seen". Outmaneuvering Dooku was not simply "natural talent" working alone; it was a refinement of that innate drawing to saber combat and over a decade of practice, both physically and mentally.

Another false premise you're operating under is the assumption that,

To be "truly great" at something doesn't require mastery? Tell that to the thousands of professional champions - including Anakin Skywalker - that have spent thousands of hours practicing that they have all wasted their time.

Just saying something doesn't make it so and drawing incompatible comparisons don't support much of anything. You'll need something more viable than your words if you want to be taken seriously.

You can never call yourself a Star Wars nerd if you can't quote the line properly.

Havnt watched episode 2 in a bit, forgot it plz correct if you remember been a few months since i have

Been like half a year for me.

"If you spent as much time practising your saber techniques as you did your, wit you'd rival master Yoda as a swordsman."

Maul curbstomps. He dueled both Qui Gon and TPM Obi Wan in a duel with a broken ankle, killing Qui Gon and only losing to to being overconfident, and he beat Darth Vader (or his clone did), and only lost...to overconfidence.

Ventress got tooled by Obi Wan in the CW movie.

oh-kay! a nice nap and a bowel ice cream later and i feel fine. 😄 srsly ice cream does wonders for hangovers. 😐

In this case, you have a Dark Jedi with the training of a Jedi padawan going up against a fully trained Dark Lord of the Sith

fully trained to what extent? he reached the pinnacle of his own understanding... i dont really think this has any bearing on a fight. that masterful learning obviously wasnt intensive enough to keep himself from getting lured into a false sense of security and chopped in half...

who was a better fighter than even the most skilled duelist of the entire Jedi Order, Anoon Bondara, who also happened to be the battlemaster of the era.

"At least she was not standing there alone. Behind her and slightly to one side was her mentor, Anoon Bondara. Master Bondara epitomized what Darsha hoped to become one day. The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none. Darsha hoped that one day she might be able to exhibit a tenth of Anoon Bondara's adeptness."

imo the author is talking from the viewpoint of how darsha views her master. the last line leads me to believe that the author is talking in an almost 2nd person form, explaining to us how she feels. i dont think the statement about his skills is an out of universe deceleration.

but even if we were to believe that it is, which i dont, it states that he is one of the best duelists of the order first off and it doesnt say of all time either which means its highly possible that it was only referring to that specific time point.

according to faunus its later siad that anoon "humbled" himself after fighting mace and yoda and even doubted his own skills. so hes not on their level.

so if hes not on their level then who else is there as of that specific time that anoon could really compete with? who else was notable enough in dueling that anoon being above them was an impressive feat?

I'm curious as to how the duel between Anakin and Dooku has any relevance whatsoever to in proving that Asajj Ventress would beat Maul. If this is what you were trying to make out of it.

Then I'd tell you that your operating under an inaccurate assumption. Anakin was a master of Djem So, Dooku himself notes that he was "the finest Djem So stylist he'd ever seen". Outmaneuvering Dooku was not simply "natural talent" working alone; it was a refinement of that innate drawing to saber combat and over a decade of practice, both physically and mentally.

and dooku had multiple decades of practice both physically and mentally over anakin but lost anyway. that is my point. the skill that anakin had made dookus decades upon decades upon decades of training and learning irrelevant. he caught up to him in four years. that was four years that he didnt spend in deep meditation with all of his focus on lightsaber refinement. he couldnt even if he wanted to. he was too busy fighting a war.

my overall point is that learning and practice can only take you so far and having more of it can not be proof superiority by itself.

you've put forth two things that lead you to believe that maul would beat assaj. one: he reached his maximum potential for learning. and two he defeated anoon bonderas who was a good duelist.

the first point isnt an actual gauge of power and doesnt really hold much relevance to a fight unless we know specifically what he learned and we can be shown how much its helped him in battle. that could be supported then by your second point which is the defeat of anoon. the problem is that you think anoon is a godly fighter but according to the source he isnt. hes simply an above average fighter in a time where the bar for average isnt all that high to begin with.

To be "truly great" at something doesn't require mastery? Tell that to the thousands of professional champions - including Anakin Skywalker - that have spent thousands of hours practicing that they have all wasted their time.

id just like to note that many people who spent countless hours training to be good at something have ended up getting their ass kicked by someone who spent less then half as long training. see dooku for details. muhammed ali and mike tyson made a career out of whooping on people who had much more experience.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
fully trained to what extent? he reached the pinnacle of his own understanding... i dont really think this has any bearing on a fight. that masterful learning obviously wasnt intensive enough to keep himself from getting lured into a false sense of security and chopped in half...

You don't think that mastering the way of the dark side gives one an advantage in the fight? You don't think devoting hours of intense training to lightsaber combat has any bearing on a fight? Good to know.

"At least she was not standing there alone. Behind her and slightly to one side was her mentor, Anoon Bondara. Master Bondara epitomized what Darsha hoped to become one day. The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none. Darsha hoped that one day she might be able to exhibit a tenth of Anoon Bondara's adeptness."

imo the author is talking from the viewpoint of how darsha views her master. the last line leads me to believe that the author is talking in an almost 2nd person form, explaining to us how she feels. i dont think the statement about his skills is an out of universe deceleration.

You're making assumptions that aren't supported by the way the novel is written. It isn't written from a third-person limited perspective, that is, writing in third-person based on one character's subjective perspective.

That said, the narrator is merely pointing out the reasons as to why Darsha respects her master. Simply because those reasons include controversial statements doesn't make the entirety a subjective viewpoint. The passage clearly points out when it's discussing Darsha's feelings.

but even if we were to believe that it is, which i dont,

Then you're choosing to believe something that has no basis in reality.

it states that he is one of the best duelists of the order first off

"[Anoon] was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none. "

What's that? You're sounding like Ann Coulter putting on all that spin. It says that his "skill with a lightsaber is second to none" and that he is "one of the best fighters". Obviously pointing out that he is not the most powerful Force user. When I'm bringing Anoon up in reference to Maul's lightsaber skills, bringing up he's "one of the best fighters" is largely irrelevant.

and it doesnt say of all time either which means its highly possible that it was only referring to that specific time point.

Let's make it clear, we're talking about TPM; no one ever mentioned a word about "all-time". However, that time still included people like Mace Windu, Yoda and Count Dooku.

Rather than fight a losing argument, start providing some convincing evidence of your claim that Ventress can actually defeat Maul. So far you have left it completely naked.

according to faunus its later siad that anoon "humbled" himself after fighting mace and yoda and even doubted his own skills. so hes not on their level.

Your say-so doesn't make it true. Prove up.

so if hes not on their level

Anoon is on their level with a blade, ergo he's "one of the best fighters", ergo he's in league with "them" (who is this again? Your making vague references to whom exactly?).

then who else is there as of that specific time that anoon could really compete with? who else was notable enough in dueling that anoon being above them was an impressive feat?

You're grasping at straws here, missing the point entirely, and have yet to provide a shred of viable evidence that can back your notion that Ventress would beat Maul.

and dooku had multiple decades of practice both physically and mentally over anakin but lost anyway. that is my point.

Your point isn't taken then. Anakin still had over a decade of training that refined that "skill" to the point where he could overwhelm Dooku. What happened in AotC? That "skill" didn't help him much when he got his arm lobbed off. Three years later when Anakin is actively engaging in lightsaber duels and honing his abilities, he is more than a match for Dooku.

That demonstrates my point exactly: natural talent alone is nothing in comparison to natural talent that has been practiced upon for thousands of hours. Stop playing dense, because I know you are not.

the skill that anakin had made dookus decades upon decades upon decades of training and learning irrelevant. he caught up to him in four years. that was four years that he didnt spend in deep meditation with all of his focus on lightsaber refinement. he couldnt even if he wanted to. he was too busy fighting a war.

War is what advances a Jedi's abilities. That's why we see the huge leap in ability, because during those years, Anakin was fighting with a blade against other blade users. He gained experience and spent "thousands upon thousands of hours" training with a lightsaber. We see this with Obi-Wan and Mace Windu as well, who went from being a beaten by Dooku, to being capable of downing Darth Sidious.

my overall point is that learning and practice can only take you so far and having more of it can not be proof superiority by itself.

Can you point out where anyone said it did? You'd be hard-pressed, since no one ever made such a claim.

However, you seem to be operating under assumption that Asajj is more "naturally skilled" than Maul. That requires some extensive proof, which you've yet to show a sliver of.

you've put forth two things that lead you to believe that maul would beat assaj. one: he reached his maximum potential for learning.

That's hardly an accurate description of my position, Coulter. No one said he "reached his maximum potential for learning". Indeed, that's far from true. Even Sidious did not reach such a thing. What I did say is that he has at least mastered the art of lightsaber combat and has demonstrated his proficiency with it as among the greatest of his era by embarrassing people like Anoon Bondara and the Jedi duo of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon.

On the other hand, Ventress is shown struggling with AotC Anakin and being tossed around like a rag doll against Dooku and Grievous.

and two he defeated anoon bonderas who was a good duelist.

Who's "lightsaber skill was second to none" at the time of his death, yes.

The first point isnt an actual gauge of power and doesnt really hold much relevance to a fight unless we know specifically what he learned and we can be shown how much its helped him in battle. that could be supported then by your second point which is the defeat of anoon. the problem is that you think anoon is a godly fighter but according to the source he isnt. hes simply an above average fighter in a time where the bar for average isnt all that high to begin with.

I'll take canon quotes from narration over your say-so. You say that Anoon was an "above average fighter" - and you have provided jack shit to prove that. Until you do, don't expect me to waste my time responding to your unsupported claims.

id just like to note that many people who spent countless hours training to be good at something have ended up getting their ass kicked by someone who spent less then half as long training. see dooku for details. muhammed ali and mike tyson made a career out of whooping on people who had much more experience.

You're being ridiculous. Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson did practice for thousands of hours before they even stepped up to the professional level. You don't grasp the concept that all of these folks have dedicated themselves to training in an effort to become the best, because they are not naturally the best. You cannot innately have the ability to walk into a boxing ring and defeat someone like Mike Tyson; you would be destroyed.

Originally posted by Advent
You don't think that mastering the way of the dark side gives one an advantage in the fight? You don't think devoting hours of intense training to lightsaber combat has any bearing on a fight? Good to know.

i dont think that by itself it can be used as an example of direct superiority over someone else unless its quantified.

You're making assumptions that aren't supported by the way the novel is written. It isn't written from a third-person limited perspective, that is, writing in third-person based on one character's subjective perspective.

That said, the narrator is merely pointing out the reasons as to why Darsha respects her master. Simply because those reasons include controversial statements doesn't make the entirety a subjective viewpoint. The passage clearly points out when it's discussing Darsha's feelings.

i suppose so. shrug

What's that? You're sounding like Ann Coulter putting on all that spin. It says that his "skill with a lightsaber is second to none" and that he is "one of the best fighters". Obviously pointing out that he is not the most powerful Force user.

Let's make it clear, we're talking about TPM; no one ever mentioned a word about "all-time". However, that time still included people like Mace Windu, Yoda and Count Dooku.

Your say-so doesn't make it true. Prove up.

Anoon is on their level with a blade, ergo he's "one of the best fighters", ergo he's in league with "them" (who is this again? Your making vague references to whom exactly?).

Who's "lightsaber skill was second to none" at the time of his death, yes.

I'll take canon quotes from narration over your say-so. You say that Anoon was an "above average fighter" - and you have provided jack shit to prove that. Until you do, don't expect me to waste my time responding to your unsupported claims.

ill address all this stuff after faunus replies to my pm. i dont know where he got that statement from or if its true but it holds a lot of relevance to our discussion.

Rather than fight a losing argument, start providing some convincing evidence of your claim that Ventress can actually defeat Maul. So far you have left it completely naked.

You're grasping at straws here, missing the point entirely, and have yet to provide a shred of viable evidence that can back your notion that Ventress would beat Maul.

However, you seem to be operating under assumption that Asajj is more "naturally skilled" than Maul. That requires some extensive proof, which you've yet to show a sliver of.

Your point isn't taken then. Anakin still had over a decade of training that refined that "skill" to the point where he could overwhelm Dooku. What happened in AotC? That "skill" didn't help him much when he got his arm lobbed off. Three years later when Anakin is actively engaging in lightsaber duels and honing his abilities, he is more than a match for Dooku.

That demonstrates my point exactly: natural talent alone is nothing in comparison to natural talent that has been practiced upon for thousands of hours. Stop playing dense, because I know you are not.

i agree 100% with you here. skill alone does not mean a whole lot and it by itself cant used to label someone as superior.

War is what advances a Jedi's abilities. That's why we see the huge leap in ability, because during those years, Anakin was fighting with a blade against other blade users. He gained experience and spent "thousands upon thousands of hours" training with a lightsaber. We see this with Obi-Wan and Mace Windu as well, who went from being a beaten by Dooku, to being capable of downing Darth Sidious.

personally i never considered the war to be a great learning experience for the jedis bladework because the majority of their time was spent fighting droids which didnt necessarily require sharpening specific skills of their respective styles.
comparatively speaking lightsaber duels were too far and in in between as opposed to fighting droids, for the war to hone their dueling skills that much. as i see it extensive one on one sparring in the pre-war peace time would serve their dueling skills better then the hectic blaster bolt deflection and such that was metaphorically the order of the day for them. mmm

No one said he "reached his maximum potential for learning".

thats what "mastering" something is, honestly.

he learned everything that was presented for him to learn.

On the other hand, Ventress is shown struggling with AotC Anakin .

and despite that she managed to almost kill him a few months before RotS and along the way slew her share of jedi and defeated a couple of notable skill.

and being tossed around like a rag doll against Dooku and Grievous

both of whom would absolutely wreck maul in any contest. 😛

You're being ridiculous. Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson did practice for thousands of hours before they even stepped up to the professional level. You don't grasp the concept that all of these folks have dedicated themselves to training in an effort to become the best, because they are not naturally the best. You cannot innately have the ability to walk into a boxing ring and defeat someone like Mike Tyson; you would be destroyed. [/B]

i agree with you.

Can you point out where anyone said it did? You'd be hard-pressed, since no one ever made such a claim.

That's hardly an accurate description of my position, Coulter.

it wasnt my intention to spin your words into something else i was merely stating how im interpreting your words. im sorry if it seemed like i was doing anything else.

- - - -

i feel emotionally drained after making that post. almost depressed even. wtf.

[Reflection]: I should probably stop treating people's post like I'm responding to a dolt like Dr. McBeefington.

😆

Originally posted by Advent
[Reflection]: I should probably stop treating people's post like I'm responding to a dolt like Dr. McBeefington.

That is probably the nicest thing I have ever seen you post. Srsly.

Originally posted by Advent
[Reflection]: I should probably stop treating people's post like I'm responding to a dolt like Dr. McBeefington.

considering my current shennanigans in the Revan's strength's, I lol'ed.

Without getting into a long, drawn out post right out the gate, I'll just say that I see nothing that suggests Ventress can defeat Maul. Perhaps it's because I've personally seen more information about Maul (which might not be a fair argument), but With his victory of Anoon and basically QGJ and OB1 (until his hubris hindered his ultimate success), I don't see how she would be on his level. Not that I think he completely overshadows her by leagues and leagues, but I believe he is the superior combatant.

well. shut up!
also, were you really in the military?

Well that wasn't very nice. 🙂
Yes ma'am, I was. How did you know that, by the way?