Best saber duelists

Started by KuRuPT Thanosi13 pages

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
NO. It DOES matter how A beats B.

Obi Wan only won because Maul was too overconfident.

Get it?

In other words, Maul was the better duelist. He took on Qui Gon + Obi Wan at once, even though he had an injured knee (or was it ankle?). He managed to knock Obi Wan into a ledge, and could've won by simply using the Force to push Obi Wan down, but decided to wait because he was overconfident and wanted to relish his victory.

Now please explain to me how that shows that Obi Wan was a better duelist.

You see you guys aren't factoring other parts of dueling and skill. You see not only do you have to be technically good with a saber but your mentality also affects your dueling skills, If your over confident when dueling... guess what that does go to your dueling ability and skill. If your asking me who is technically better at that point.. Maul or Kenobi I say Maul. However, if you ask me who is the best duelist.. the answer is Kenobi imo. Your mentality, connection to the force and technically skill all play a factor in how you perform with a blade. It wasn't a cheap shop.. they were going toe 2 toe with blades and Maul wasn't overpowering Kenobi or making him look like a fool. In fact, when he got the advantage it was via the force and not saber skills. You make it sound like maul was tooling him and had him at his mercy via saber. Nope he had him at his mercy via the force and kicks. The point is this... Where the NY Giants and Eagles technically on paper better than the Arizona Cardinals.. Yes. However, a lot of factors go into winning and performing said technical skill on the football field. Guess what Arizona proved to be better football team that day just as Kenobi proved to be the better duelist that day. Taking narration or canon one v one combat is silly imo. A lot of factors go into being a good duelist and Kenobi proved superior. Again, the best way to tell who is the best duelist is actually fights where it counts the most. I'm still looking for who Anoon or Cin beat that compare to who Kenobi or Anakin beat that places them above the latter.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You see you guys aren't factoring other parts of dueling and skill. You see not only do you have to be technically good with a saber but your mentality also affects your dueling skills, If your over confident when dueling... guess what that does go to your dueling ability and skill. If your asking me who is technically better at that point.. Maul or Kenobi I say Maul. However, if you ask me who is the best duelist.. the answer is Kenobi imo. Your mentality, connection to the force and technically skill all play a factor in how you perform with a blade. It wasn't a cheap shop.. they were going toe 2 toe with blades and Maul wasn't overpowering Kenobi or making him look like a fool. In fact, when he got the advantage it was via the force and not saber skills. You make it sound like maul was tooling him and had him at his mercy via saber. Nope he had him at his mercy via the force and kicks. The point is this... Where the NY Giants and Eagles technically on paper better than the Arizona Cardinals.. Yes. However, a lot of factors go into winning and performing said technical skill on the football field. Guess what Arizona proved to be better football team that day just as Kenobi proved to be the better duelist that day. Taking narration or canon one v one combat is silly imo. A lot of factors go into being a good duelist and Kenobi proved superior. Again, the best way to tell who is the best duelist is actually fights where it counts the most. I'm still looking for who Anoon or Cin beat that compare to who Kenobi or Anakin beat that places them above the latter.

So you agree I am a better fighter then Floyd, right?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You see you guys aren't factoring other parts of dueling and skill. You see not only do you have to be technically good with a saber but your mentality also affects your dueling skills, If your over confident when dueling... guess what that does go to your dueling ability and skill. If your asking me who is technically better at that point.. Maul or Kenobi I say Maul. However, if you ask me who is the best duelist.. the answer is Kenobi imo. Your mentality, connection to the force and technically skill all play a factor in how you perform with a blade. It wasn't a cheap shop.. they were going toe 2 toe with blades and Maul wasn't overpowering Kenobi or making him look like a fool. In fact, when he got the advantage it was via the force and not saber skills. You make it sound like maul was tooling him and had him at his mercy via saber. Nope he had him at his mercy via the force and kicks. The point is this... Where the NY Giants and Eagles technically on paper better than the Arizona Cardinals.. Yes. However, a lot of factors go into winning and performing said technical skill on the football field. Guess what Arizona proved to be better football team that day just as Kenobi proved to be the better duelist that day. Taking narration or canon one v one combat is silly imo. A lot of factors go into being a good duelist and Kenobi proved superior. Again, the best way to tell who is the best duelist is actually fights where it counts the most. I'm still looking for who Anoon or Cin beat that compare to who Kenobi or Anakin beat that places them above the latter.

1. Maul wasn't acting like an idiot until at the very very end. He was actually tactically leading them to a place where their ataru would be limited due to the confined space.

2. Maul's ankle/knee/whatever was injured/broken before.

3. And yet he still took on Qui Gon (a guy that could stalemate TPM Mace Windu) and his formidable apprentice at once.

4. Maul was able to defeat Qui Gon not only because of Maul's brilliant swordplay but because he tactically used his environment to his advantage.

5. Obi Wan tapped into the DS and took on Maul, but was still unable to overpower Maul.

6. Although the DS made him stronger, it also made him not think as clearly, which is presumably why Maul was able to Force push him by surprise.

7. Then Maul suddenly becomes an idiot, so he dies.

...but anyway, what are you actually trying to say?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So, tell me as you didn't prove a damn thing with this post of yours.

This is not a sentence. Was it supposed to be insulting or cast doubt on my position?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Let me focus on the main point of the argument...

That would be nice.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You absolutely could say... Kenobi managed to not die at the hands of Anakin. You see, just because he tried to use adjectives to get the point across that he barely won and really shouldn't have one doesn't change in any way how you could use that sentence.

So you are just arguing semantics. Telling us that could have saved us a lot of time. It is considered common courtesy to give some indication that you are intentionally making no argument, rather than forcing us to divine your inadequacy from the repeated failure to support your assertions.

There is a certain level of dishonesty required to argue such a point. Ignoring the intent and twisting meaning of a line by taking it out of context shows only your desperation. I bet Gideon's pepost seems massive when you're getting rappwnd as thoroughly by him as you just were but it is probably best if you just stop trying. You've done a poor job and now that the intent

Spoiler:
bait
of your posts is clearer you might want to go back to whatever it is that you do.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Lets break that sentence down because clearly you need help in understanding the English language.

This is coming from someone that used the word "pretensious" and considers ellipses appropriate replacements for periods.

😐

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
"managed to survive and not die at the hands of ___ blank" Even if better than somebody that doesn't change the fact that I could say I managed to beat(survive) and not lose to (die) ___. Any saber duel in history could use that same exact sentence. Just because Gideon tried to use it to discredit Kenobi's skill doesn't change in any way how that sentence can be used or interrupted. If you survive a duel, it doesn't matter if your better or worse YOU MANAGED TO SURVIVE and NOT DIE AT THE HANDS OF ___. I'm unclear how basic reading comprehension/vocabulary alludes you, and you can't see this. It certainly can be used in such a way to describe any duel, whether he was using that way or not, doesn't disprove my point that it can be.

Alludes:
-verb
1. to refer casually or indirectly; make an allusion (usually fol. by to): He often alluded to his poverty.
2. to contain a casual or indirect reference (usually fol. by to): The letter alludes to something now forgotten.

I need to learn English? I suggest that you learn what the words you are (mis)using actually mean before lobbing accusations or insults about ability.

Your point about the universal application of the statement is, again, an exercise in semantics. Moreover it is a faulty one. "...[M]anaged to avoid dying at the hands of [Maul]" is very different from "he managed to survive without being killed."

The former is the quote in question. The latter is your misquoted version of the line.

For someone whose pride in their linguistic abilities is eminently vast, I am surprised that you have failed to understand the distinction between the two. Luckily, I am willing to moonlight as a teacher, well endowed in the gift of patience (among other things).

The primary difference that you fail to note is that the connotation of the sentence Gideon provided is explicitly minimalist. It suggests that dying was imminent and that the avoidance thereof is noteworthy. It was presumably difficult too.

"Managed to survive without being killed" contains none of this sophistication. It is the laughable mutation of "survived against [someone]" into the tautological "survive without being killed" that so undermines your argument; where the original version of the line contrasts vastly different skill levels your new incarnation merely affirms the character's level of post-combat vitality. Assuring us that your new line can be applied to "every fight" in the mythos may not necessarily be technically incorrect but it does nothing to further your argument against the original line.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Furthermore, the best proof of skill in dueling is.... drum roll.... dueling!! Ya know what the best measure of who is a better duelist.... drum roll.. actually dueling between A & B. You see, in life and death situation and in direct dueling situation we see who comes out on top. On KMC we go by feats and direct combat situations. Yes we also go by narration but as you know that can be filled with hyperbole and not substantiation of narration. However, when we see a duel between Kenobi and Maul.. we don't need narration to know who came out on top and is a better duelist. They fought and Kenobi won, period. You can give me x,y and z of why but in the end Kenobi proved to be the better duelist. You can't argue with cannon battles and choose to look at hyperbole instead which is the mistake you and Gideon make. Just because you don't like the outcome or feel Maul was better.. Well sorry, he wasn't better.

Clearly the issue of canon is an important one for you. Please allow me to direct you to our rules thread. The canon policy for this board includes this helpful little nugget:

2. As far as the EU section is concerned, the films are the most important canon. The rest of the canon is rated in-house as part of an ongoing continuity effort by the makers and as much as it can be, that can be treated as the way of things here. Generally speaking, books are very canon, computer games aren’t, but it’s not quite as simple as that. Ask around and you shall find out.

This means that we have two main sources to examine. The books and the movies. Luckily for me, someone has provided an excellent case already. Allow me to direct you to the illustrious Advent and her airtight presentation of why you are factually incorrect:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=506413&pagenumber=3

You are dismissing out of hand a large portion of our data by refusing to examine narration. Narration is canon. To use your own phrase against you, "You can't argue with canon." So your (unsupported) assertions that the results of duels are more important than evaluation of those duels falls flat.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In conclusion.. I posed a very simple question... Name me the people Cin and Anoon beat and we'll compare that list to who Kenobi has beat. You ask for proof and I've given examples of who Kenobi has beat to make him a better duelist than those 2. So, please provide me with a list of who they beat. I don't want narration and hyperbole I want feats in duels. We aren't talking potential this is THE BEST DUELIST. Hmmmm what is the best way to see and rank who is better than who... Ooooo that's right... If they fought and beat the other.. They are better. So, please let me see the actually dueling feats of Cin and Anoon and lets see how they stack up against Kenobi and Anakin.

This paragraph made my eyes bleed. If you want to be a prick about language please make an effort to project an image, at the very least, of basic competence.

Then learn to make an argument that consists of more than "BUT THIS THING THAT SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING YOU SAID IS DUMB" and "ABC ARGUMENTS ARE THE ONE AND ONLY THING I CAN USE."

Do it for the children.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
This is not a sentence. Was it supposed to be insulting or cast doubt on my position?


That would be nice.

[/b]
So you are just arguing semantics. Telling us that could have saved us a lot of time. It is considered common courtesy to give some indication that you are intentionally making no argument, rather than forcing us to divine your inadequacy from the repeated failure to support your assertions.

There is a certain level of dishonesty required to argue such a point. Ignoring the intent and twisting meaning of a line by taking it out of context shows only your desperation. I bet Gideon's pepost seems massive when you're getting rappwnd as thoroughly by him as you just were but it is probably best if you just stop trying. You've done a poor job and now that the intent

Spoiler:
bait
of your posts is clearer you might want to go back to whatever it is that you do.

[/b]
This is coming from someone that used the word "pretensious" and considers ellipses appropriate replacements for periods.

😐

[/b]
Alludes:
-verb
1. to refer casually or indirectly; make an allusion (usually fol. by to): He often alluded to his poverty.
2. to contain a casual or indirect reference (usually fol. by to): The letter alludes to something now forgotten.

I need to learn English? I suggest that you learn what the words you are (mis)using actually mean before lobbing accusations or insults about ability.

Your point about the universal application of the statement is, again, an exercise in semantics. Moreover it is a faulty one. "...[M]anaged to avoid dying at the hands of [Maul]" is very different from "he managed to survive without being killed."

The former is the quote in question. The latter is your misquoted version of the line.

For someone whose pride in their linguistic abilities is eminently vast, I am surprised that you have failed to understand the distinction between the two. Luckily, I am willing to moonlight as a teacher, well endowed in the gift of patience (among other things).

The primary difference that you fail to note is that the connotation of the sentence Gideon provided is explicitly minimalist. It suggests that dying was imminent and that the avoidance thereof is noteworthy. It was presumably difficult too.

"Managed to survive without being killed" contains none of this sophistication. It is the laughable mutation of "survived against [someone]" into the tautological "survive without being killed" that so undermines your argument; where the original version of the line contrasts vastly different skill levels your new incarnation merely affirms the character's level of post-combat vitality. Assuring us that your new line can be applied to "every fight" in the mythos may not necessarily be technically incorrect but it does nothing to further your argument against the original line.

[/b]

Clearly the issue of canon is an important one for you. Please allow me to direct you to our rules thread. The canon policy for this board includes this helpful little nugget:

This means that we have two main sources to examine. The books and the movies. Luckily for me, someone has provided an excellent case already. Allow me to direct you to the illustrious Advent and her airtight presentation of why you are factually incorrect:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=506413&pagenumber=3

You are dismissing out of hand a large portion of our data by refusing to examine narration. Narration is canon. To use your own phrase against you, "You can't argue with canon." So your (unsupported) assertions that the results of duels are more important than evaluation of those duels falls flat.

This paragraph made my eyes bleed. If you want to be a prick about language please make an effort to project an image, at the very least, of basic competence.

Then learn to make an argument that consists of more than "BUT THIS THING THAT SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING YOU SAID IS DUMB" and "ABC ARGUMENTS ARE THE ONE AND ONLY THING I CAN USE."

Do it for the children. [/B]

hahahaha Still back to me using the wrong quote are we? I used his exact quote which you conceded could be used to describe ANY fight in the mythos. Yes, Gideon didn't intend it to be used that way and intended for it to say that Kenobi was outmatched and was lucky to survive. You can call is semantics all you want, but the fact remains that you can use said sentence that Gideon said to describe any fight in the Mythos. That is undisputable. Nobody is arguing how Gideon meant that sentence, but my assertion is that it was piss poor one, being that you can say that about any fight, game or battle.

I have no problem with the canonicity of narration at all. In fact, I think its a handy tool to help gauge power when no direct illustration has taken place. However, when a direct conflict takes place and A beats B, yet the narration earlier said B was TH3 UB3R Du3list in the Mythos which is more valid? Imo its the direct battle we have in front of us.. not narration on who's better. We need that when a fight hasn't occurred and thus its a good reference on who is better. However, when they have fought how is that THE BEST evidence on who is actually better? It's not the battle feats should and imo have more weight.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
hahahaha Still back to me using the wrong quote are we? I used his exact quote which you conceded could be used to describe ANY fight in the mythos. Yes, Gideon didn't intend it to be used that way and intended for it to say that Kenobi was outmatched and was lucky to survive. You can call is semantics all you want, but the fact remains that you can use said sentence that Gideon said to describe any fight in the Mythos. That is undisputable. Nobody is arguing how Gideon meant that sentence, but my assertion is that it was piss poor one, being that you can say that about any fight, game or battle.

I have no problem with the canonicity of narration at all. In fact, I think its a handy tool to help gauge power when no direct illustration has taken place. However, when a direct conflict takes place and A beats B, yet the narration earlier said B was TH3 UB3R Du3list in the Mythos which is more valid? Imo its the direct battle we have in front of us.. not narration on who's better. We need that when a fight hasn't occurred and thus its a good reference on who is better. However, when they have fought how is that THE BEST evidence on who is actually better? It's not the battle feats should and imo have more weight.

Are you a troll or are you really this incompetent?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Are you a troll or are you [b]really this incompetent? [/B]

Look bro, your on Gideon Johnson n that's cool, but don't get upset I made your little buddy get his panties in a bunch.

The word is you're, or you are, depending on your preference and/or mastery of the English language. If you care to notice, I am not on anybody's johnson(I see what you did there, substituting the word penis for a more humorous word, nice job). I've just read your repeatedly incoherent rambings and I was legitimately wondering if you were trolling, or really were as incompetent as your posts? Another justification could be inebriation, correct? You post on this forum when you are bat shit drunk and have nothing better to do? Hmm..

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The word is you're, or you are, depending on your preference and/or mastery of the English language. If you care to notice, I am not on anybody's johnson(I see what you did there, substituting the word penis for a more humorous word, nice job). I've just read your repeatedly incoherent rambings and I was legitimately wondering if you were trolling, or really were as incompetent as your posts? Another justification could be inebriation, correct? You post on this forum when you are bat shit drunk and have nothing better to do? Hmm..

I think that last part must be right. Else I'm going to be really concerned.

Originally posted by Gideon
Slash, I will rape you in the ass figurativelytomorrow.

Tomorrow has past. I'm still waiting.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC

Tomorrow has past. I'm still waiting.

😕

He must really be waiting for that ass rape session to take place...

...

Originally posted by Gideon
Do you mean in pure skill? Because if we were to gauge skill, then the likes of General Grievous and his MagnaGuards may be considered for placement, given their intimate knowledge of all forms.
knew u would say that but its true he once fought off ki-adi-mundi,aalay secura-,some padawon,,shaaka-tiand some oone that looks like k'krunk

Originally posted by AthenasTrgrFngr
hows that dumb? anakin is the most inherently skilled duelist of the mythos. yoda is only where he is because he had 900 years to hone his abilities. if anakin or luke had half that time they would be literally gods without any peer or competition what so ever. id say the same for mace and kas'im.
that true

My God, Gideon never did rape me.

I'm inferring bemusement from those words.

You weirdo.

Originally posted by AthenasTrgrFngr
the first four i consider to be the top 4 duelists of all time but there is still a ranking among them of the 4 kas'im is the weakest of the four mace third weakest etc.

the four below that are the second group of top duelists but there is no hierarchy between them. i dont for example consider obi wan to have more skill then yoda.

Anakin ? Grevious could have packed him and sold him at a garage sale.Ob1 was so d@mn lucky to win.

Prove that Grevious will tool Anakin.

Originally posted by darth radon
Anakin ? Grevious could have packed him and sold him at a garage sale.Ob1 was so d@mn lucky to win.

Obi Wan was "lucky"? Really? Have you seen the movie? Have you read the novelization? Obi Wan outclassed GG, plain and simple. Same with Kit Fisto, who was in the process of tooling GG before his MagnaGuards decided to interfere.

Kenobi outclassed GG, and would also win a majority against Anakin.